[Mikel89us]

Originally Posted by Cgross609 Yeah i was worried about the parisitic loss of the belt driven. But i thought if you maybe underdrove the pulleys, and bump the boost to 7 or 8psi, you would gain maybe.... 40 hp? Just a guess... Lolol

If you want power and reliability and would like to stay N/A just go to esslinger and order their crate ministock engine that makes 225 hp.

[zonker]

Originally Posted by WickedSnake00 We really are an insane bunch. But that talk of the miller effect reminds me of Scuderi engines. Look them up, each cylinder is twinned with another that compresses the incoming charge and forces it into the combustion cylinder. This allows the cylinder to fire after TDC, achieve incredibly high compression, and extremely high efficiencies. Now I'm sure you don't have a Scuderi engine lying around. What I had contemplated, as far fetched as it is, is to basically use a belt driven air compressor as an effective supercharger. Assuming you can match up the airflows, it would let it behave somewhat like a Scuderi, but would allow you to cool the charge before it enters the combustion chamber. If anything it would be an insanely cheap supercharger.

another thought thats crossed my warped brain (and is filed in the "what if" drawer) is what if you turned one of the engines own cylinders into an air pump and made it function as an air compressor, with a remote air tank that would store that cylinder's pure air charge and be designed to deliver the compressed air into the other "active" cylinders on load demands...

[TaterTodd]

The front fenders and rear quarters although smoothed out somehwat look like the Capri body panels ... I had to throw in my penny's worth ... You guys have just gotten way to dang smart ...

[WickedSnake00]

Originally Posted by zonker another thought thats crossed my warped brain (and is filed in the "what if" drawer) is what if you turned one of the engines own cylinders into an air pump and made it function as an air compressor, with a remote air tank that would store that cylinder's pure air charge and be designed to deliver the compressed air into the other "active" cylinders on load demands...

Basically what a Scuderi does. The hard part is getting the proper cam and crank phasing for it. It would be amazing if you could figure out how to do it on the cheap.

...and I'm pretty sure after this discussion Ford should hire the 3 of us onto SVT.

[OHC230]

If you want power and reliability and would like to stay N/A just go to Esslinger and order their crate ministock engine that makes 225 hp

You have a good point. I really think that you get a lot of motor for $8,000 and it is a true racing engine, with a LOT of detail work added, which might be taken for granted by someone who isn't all that familiar with these racing engines. But....if you are married like me and you tell your wife that you want to spend $8 grand on a motor for your car and you might not be able to drive on the street, it may cause some fricton. I think that is a good reason to pursue more financially moderate ways to have your fun, like turbo or supercharging. I really think that the supercharger set up I'm working on, will give an honest 50-60 HP boost to a mostly stock 2.3 engine, without destroying the driveability of the car.


You guys have just gotten way to dang smart ...
Not me Todd, I just keep getting dumber!

[sonik1supra]

Originally Posted by Mikel89us If you want power and reliability and would like to stay N/A just go to esslinger and order their crate ministock engine that makes 225 hp.

yes

[OHC230]

While I hear what you guys are saying about the Esslinger crate motors, I think for a street driven car, where you don’t have to worry about class rules, building a more tame 2.7L motor makes a lot more sense to me, money wise. That extra displacement buys you quite a bit of extra torque, at a much lower RPM and with the same HP goal in mind, it is feasible to run a less aggressive cam profile in the larger motor.

I think I paid about $1900 dollars a piece for my 2.7L cranks; I bought 2 at one time. I paid about $2,000 for my completely assembled Esslinger SVO head/with cam and about $1,300 for the rest of the parts plus some balancing work to build my current motor, using the stock block. If we round that off to an even $5,500, we are still $2,500 ahead of the game when you are comparing the Esslinger crate, to a DIY/ Esslinger motor.

I don't have a current dyno result to post on the 2.7L in my car, but I can tell you that it has gained huge amounts of torque over the 2.3L crank.

[Mikel89us]

Originally Posted by OHC230 While I hear what you guys are saying about the Esslinger crate motors, I think for a street driven car, where you don’t have to worry about class rules, building a more tame 2.7L motor makes a lot more sense to me, money wise. That extra displacement buys you quite a bit of extra torque, at a much lower RPM and with the same HP goal in mind, it is feasible to run a less aggressive cam profile in the larger motor. I think I paid about $1900 dollars a piece for my 2.7L cranks; I bought 2 at one time. I paid about $2,000 for my completely assembled Esslinger SVO head/with cam and about $1,300 for the rest of the parts plus some balancing work to build my current motor, using the stock block. If we round that off to an even $5,500, we are still $2,500 ahead of the game when you are comparing the Esslinger crate, to a DIY/ Esslinger motor. I don't have a current dyno result to post on the 2.7L in my car, but I can tell you that it has gained huge amounts of torque over the 2.3L crank.

Get that thing on the dyno!! I want to do a 2.7L conversion to my 4x4 4cyl ranger. I want to know what kind of gain i could hope for (and most likely not reach, you have a great head setup i will be using cast heads) I would like a ball park idea though.

[OHC230]

You could expect to see a gain of about 30-40 HP with the larger displacement and a similar percentage gain in torque.

[91vert*Brandy]

any updates on this?

[OHC230]

Yeah I have a bunch of them Brandy, but it will take me a while to sort through all the data. The good news is: I have come up with a low cost JY supercharger swap for the 2.3 engine, which works way better than I thought it would. I will fill in the details later. I have some more testing to do first.

[WickedSnake00]

@ junkyard supercharger. I might have to get a 2.3L car.
Very interested in the data of course. Do you have basline data?

...after this of course...

[OHC230]

Yeah I have basline test data on a few 2.3L motors, but enough of that, what's the picture of? Is this the new mill for your ride?

Captions for photo's please!

[WickedSnake00]

Originally Posted by OHC230 Yeah I have basline test data on a few 2.3L motors, but enough of that, what's the picture of? Is this the new mill for your ride? Captions for photo's please!

Sorry. Sometimes I forget not everyone can identify a terminator motor from just a glance. 2003 Cobra engine (4.6L DOHC, fully forged), ported Eaton M112 supercharger, JLT RAI, ported/polished TB/plenum, 3.1" pulley. Pure evil.

New FR500 cams are going in soon. Which brings me to my next point, cam profiles. What cam profile are you using? Turbo and positive displacement supercharger are two dramatically different profiles. You could either favor one or the other based on whether you wanted top end power or bottom end torque, or you could try and balance them.
...and what LSA would you reccommend for a positive displacement supercharged engine?

[OHC230]

I recognized the Cobra motor, but I asked if it was yours?? Y/N

Snake you are right about the cams. The exhaust events on turbo cams are not always optimal for supercharged engines. Most of my dyno tuning experience with supercharged engines is either from Porsches or earlier Mustangs, although I have worked with some later model stuff as well. Some consistent observations lead me to think that most factory cam profiles are adequate for 90% of the street motors out there. You are probably looking for that last 10% aren’t you?

If I had to narrow this down, I would look for a split profile cam with a duration of 210-214/225-228 and 12-14 degrees of lobe separation angle. Both Crane and Comp Cams offer grinds close to this.

I’ve seen pulls of 810 HP and close to 800 ft/lb from Cobra motors with these specs and your Eaton blower and 50 HP less than this on the 3 valve versions. You will need 80 PPH injectors and 2 monster fuel pumps to keep up with this.

Don’t bank on the FMU for tuning this, I’m sure that you probably know this all ready.

[WickedSnake00]

Originally Posted by OHC230 I recognized the Cobra motor, but I asked if it was yours?? Y/N Snake you are right about the cams. The exhaust events on turbo cams are not always optimal for supercharged engines. Most of my dyno tuning experience with supercharged engines is either from Porsches or earlier Mustangs, although I have worked with some later model stuff as well. Some consistent observations lead me to think that most factory cam profiles are adequate for 90% of the street motors out there. You are probably looking for that last 10% aren’t you? If I had to narrow this down, I would look for a split profile cam with a duration of 210-214/225-228 and 12-14 degrees of lobe separation angle. Both Crane and Comp Cams offer grinds close to this. I’ve seen pulls of 810 HP and close to 800 ft/lb from Cobra motors with these specs and your Eaton blower and 50 HP less than this on the 3 valve versions. You will need 80 PPH injectors and 2 monster fuel pumps to keep up with this. Don’t bank on the FMU for tuning this, I’m sure that you probably know this all ready.

Adequate shmadequate. I've got the FR500's which are 214/209 duration 0.472 lift, and since it's DOHC I'll be setting the LSA. I'd be shocked to see an Eaton M112 blower top out in the 800's, but I don't think it would be unreasonable with a TVS. I'm going 60lb/hr, twin GT fuel pumps, dual FPDM, and shooting for 550hp.

Still eager to see your data. I'd especially be interested in the final intake charge temperature and the intercooling package heat rejection capabilities.