[Cgross609]

Hey guys. Browsing Slickcar.com, i found this blower kit...

http://www.slickcar.com/details/4645...blower-kit.asp

It looks like if someone had some time and motivation, they could make this work with a 2.3. i believe it is a 9 psi system, so forged pistons would be needed... Interesting. Must do some research. What do you guys think?

[ESG-642T]

Turbo it.

[OHC230]

I like the Powerdyne units; they are very quiet when compared to geared units. There are a few of those on eBay selling for around $1,000. The kit featured in the link is for a V-8, but could be a relatively easy addition for a 2.3L. With 600 CFM at 9 PSI, you would have plenty of power potential.

I don’t know Kyle; a few years ago I would have been quick to agree with you about the turbo being the way to go, but my Mustang is waaay more usable in its supercharged configuration than it ever was with a turbo. I’m not constantly under the hood fixing it and on hot days, it still makes great power and it never lags, ever! I have a realistic amount of usable power with the blower and if I really wanted to, I could set it up so it could be turned off when not needed.

I’d do it.

[Cgross609]

Could this SC be put in the stock location of the ac compressor on our 2.3's? My Ac is shot so it wouldn't be a loss! How are the powerdyne different from geared units? The pulley shaft is hooked directly to the blower vanes? I always thought supercharger whine was always kinda cool...

[OHC230]

The Powerdyne superchargers use an internal belt drive instead of a geared system to multiply speed from the input shaft, which makes them very quiet during operation. Most of their models feature a bearing system which does not require an external oil supply, so routing of oil lines is not required.

The A/C bracket on the 2.3 would make a decent mounting location for a Powerdyne blower. Belt alignment and tension would be the most important factors for mounting.

[Cgross609]

That is brilliant. Are they rebuildable when the belt snaps or loosens?

[ESG-642T]

Originally Posted by OHC230 I like the Powerdyne units; they are very quiet when compared to geared units. There are a few of those on eBay selling for around $1,000. The kit featured in the link is for a V-8, but could be a relatively easy addition for a 2.3L. With 600 CFM at 9 PSI, you would have plenty of power potential. I don’t know Kyle; a few years ago I would have been quick to agree with you about the turbo being the way to go, but my Mustang is waaay more usable in its supercharged configuration than it ever was with a turbo. I’m not constantly under the hood fixing it and on hot days, it still makes great power and it never lags, ever! I have a realistic amount of usable power with the blower and if I really wanted to, I could set it up so it could be turned off when not needed. I’d do it.

What did you do wrong with your turbo setup is the question I ask you.

[OHC230]

That is brilliant. Are they rebuildable when the belt snaps or loosens?


To answer the first question, yes service parts are available for the Powerdyne units.


What did you do wrong with your turbo setup is the question I ask you.

Wow Kyle, that's a little presumptuous of you. I don’t come on the forums to argue with people and I’m certainly open to different opinions on topics, after all that’s how we learn things. My disagreeing with you on this topic has nothing to do with your character and it was not my intention to insult you. I would love to hear your opinion on why you think turbo charging would be a better choice. My first pro turbo point would be; a complete factory system is available for the 2.3L.

Like many things automotive, superchargers and turbo chargers have undesirable aspects regarding function. Having a background as a Mechanic and an engineer I’ve had experience with both systems over the years.

Speaking purely from an engineering perspective, it’s my conclusion, that if given the same operating conditions, a turbocharger will tend to show signs of wear faster than a supercharger system. I realize that’s broad generalization, so I’ll refine that statement by relating it to OEM supercharging/ turbo charging systems.

I’m sure we’ve all noticed that Auto makers have made a significant shift away from turbo charging systems for the past decade. It’s no secret that component reliability has been a major driving factor and there is significant evidence to support that. I’m not saying that turbochargers are bad; I think they are fantastic, I own a 500+ HP Merkur which is turbocharged, but I realize that it will never have long term reliability without careful and expensive maintenance. That’s the nature of the beast.

A lot of 4 cylinder Mustang guys operate on a tight budget; so long term reliability is a factor when we are looking for power upgrades. I think there are some viable solutions using superchargers.

[WickedSnake00]

Originally Posted by OHC230 What did you do wrong with your turbo setup is the question I ask you. Wow Kyle, that's a little presumptuous of you. I don’t come on the forums to argue with people and I’m certainly open to different opinions on topics, after all that’s how we learn things. My disagreeing with you on this topic has nothing to do with your character and it was not my intention to insult you. I would love to hear your opinion on why you think turbo charging would be a better choice. My first pro turbo point would be; a complete factory system is available for the 2.3L. Like many things automotive, superchargers and turbo chargers have undesirable aspects regarding function. Having a background as a Mechanic and an engineer I’ve had experience with both systems over the years. Speaking purely from an engineering perspective, it’s my conclusion, that if given the same operating conditions, a turbocharger will tend to show signs of wear faster than a supercharger system. I realize that’s broad generalization, so I’ll refine that statement by relating it to OEM supercharging/ turbo charging systems. I’m sure we’ve all noticed that Auto makers have made a significant shift away from turbo charging systems for the past decade. It’s no secret that component reliability has been a major driving factor and there is significant evidence to support that. I’m not saying that turbochargers are bad; I think they are fantastic, I own a 500+ HP Merkur which is turbocharged, but I realize that it will never have long term reliability without careful and expensive maintenance. That’s the nature of the beast. A lot of 4 cylinder Mustang guys operate on a tight budget; so long term reliability is a factor when we are looking for power upgrades. I think there are some viable solutions using superchargers.

Leave it to another engineer to hit it on the head.

I work with turbochargers day in and day out, and there is a dramatic difference between turbos and superchargers. Turbo's require far more parts. Think of all the oil/coolant lines, the CAC piping, the CAC, all those clamps and fittings... Turbo systems are just more prone to failure, that's just the nature of the beast. Not only that, but certain failure modes are mission disabling. Things can go south for the whole engine in the event of oil or coolant system failures related to the turbo.

That said there's a big difference in performance too. I liked one article's description of a turbo setup "I could step on the throttle and nothing, nothing, then hit boost and it was like a rocket." A turbo isn't linearly related to engine operation like a supercharger, but is more parabolic. The supercharger gives you more of an instant response, which can be more fun in daily driving.

Disclaimer; turbos are also more efficient, easier to upgrade, and their boost ranges can be effectively managed with the proper driver or configuration. I can't hate on turbo's, even on a DD. I'll be thrilled to get my Cummins ISB 6.7 Ram, which is obviously turbo.

[OHC230]

Snake, I appreciate the input. I don't think we are going to get a better or more educated insider viewpoint.

Back to CG's original question, if you decide to that this is the route you want to take, send me a PM and I will see if I can help you figure out how to pull off the installation.

OHC.

[ESG-642T]

Do any of you guys actually get into EBC's when running turbos? It seems like both of you have had on switch turbos that lag forever and never spool. I mean I've been in a few cars like that (stock block t88 supra) Almost all the street turbo cars I know have far better curves than that would if they were supercharged, my car is one of them as I wen't the vortech route.

If we were talking about positive displacement that would be another story.

And in the automotive (OEM) world seems to be more OEM turbo cars than OEM s/c cars.

(on the subject of more parts)
I guess hot side piping can be considered more parts but I don't think that's a huge deal to somebody modding a car??

[WickedSnake00]

Originally Posted by ESG-642T Do any of you guys actually get into EBC's when running turbos? It seems like both of you have had on switch turbos that lag forever and never spool. I mean I've been in a few cars like that (stock block t88 supra) Almost all the street turbo cars I know have far better curves than that would if they were supercharged, my car is one of them as I wen't the vortech route. If we were talking about positive displacement that would be another story. And in the automotive (OEM) world seems to be more OEM turbo cars than OEM s/c cars. (on the subject of more parts) I guess hot side piping can be considered more parts but I don't think that's a huge deal to somebody modding a car??

Because turbochargers don't have a linear boost curve like blowers, optimization is much more difficult. Just taking a look at compressor maps can make your head spin. Add in things like VGT's and it gets real complex real fast. I will admit in most of my experiences with friend's turbo vehicles, they have often gone the big single route. They basically just want the bragging rights of big numbers, even if it takes forever and a day to get there. They don't mind having a dyno queen. You can still launch a big single well, but you're going to need a 2-step and a transbrake auto.

On the other side you can run twins. They will allow you to spool much, much faster. They won't make the overall boost of a big single, but they're formidable, especially on larger displacement engines. Unfortunately they mean twice the complexity, twice the parts, and more chance of failure.

There's also a third option, but this is even more complex. There's any number of multiple turbocharger configurations with all sorts of piping. You can run asymmetrical twins, you can compound boost twins, you can compound triples, you can do exhaust side in parallel or series, it's limitless. Of course this makes the behavior all the more complex, and makes blueprinting all the more important.

I will also note that piping is one of the great pains of turbochargers. Hotside, coldside, oil, and coolant. All are a pain. I may be exagerating here since I'm a vehicle integration engineer, but there is a whole lot of piping, and you have to route it through a certain chassis geometry. Often changing one component affects the others. Compare this to the "add a pulley setup and put a blower on the intake" of the Cobra. Sure there's some water lines, but these are miniscule compared to the turbo.

And the reason OEM's have gone to turbo's versus superchargers is largely due to efficiency, not performance. Right now the focus is on fuel efficiency. You can get excellent fuel economy by boosting a 1.6L engine to high heaven, even if it's a dog. They don't care about 0-60, they want MPG's. Look at the on highway diesel market. The engine manufacturer's are at each other's throats for a fraction of a percent fuel economy, because that's what sells. A supercharger may get you to torque peak faster, but won't get the fuel economy. On the opposite side look at performance vehicles. PD blowers are fairly common. The ZR1, the Cobra, even top fuel dragsters.

What bugs me is people who make blanket statements like "A turbo 4 cylinder is the fastest thing ever. There is nothing else even close. Everything else sucks." The important take away from this is how absolutely important optimization is. There's any number of ways to get to a goal if done properly. No one system is superior to another, or these other types would have been extinct years ago.

And about the argument of PD blowers being a different animal altogether I'd agree with. PD blowers are for TORQUE RIGHT NOW. Centri's are more linear than turbo's, and provide a marginal advantage below a certain RPM. However on the top end turbo's will beat them every time. Where centri's really shine is their simplicity and low cost. Personally I'd take a turbo to a centri any day. In fact I'm thinking the next step may be a 76mm single into the M112. Compound, baby.

[ESG-642T]

Technology sir...

Boost controllers, and some of the wheels in the turbos now days you can pull a linear curve and a broader curve than a centri. And yes PD is a different animal.

Piping is piping, bolt it together, gasket it, t bolt clams and be done with it. I still haven't had a problem to this day with any of my cars even the buick, other that I shredded a cheap coupler. None of my turbos have water lines either btw, strictly oil cooled like my vortech was, no more belt shredding, no more belt slip, and no more pulley swaps ftw!

Talking about an oem s/c car vs adding one to a 2.3 fox - completely different story again.

[OHC230]

Kyle, I’m guessing that you are dealing with larger displacement engines for the most part. The physics governing turbocharger performance in a large displacement engine are of course not proportional to those of a small displacement engine, especially at lower engine speeds when you are in need of exhaust energy to spin a large turbine. I’m sure none of this is news to you, but it is relevant to our conversation here, electronic boost controls are not really going to help in this instance.


I’ve heard many customers’ complaints about turbo cars over the years; I used to be a mechanic. Here’s scenario that I’m sure you are familiar with; So you’re sitting in traffic on a hot day, heat soaking parts under the hood, then you try to accelerate and you hear the pinging coming from under the hood and you feel the turbo lag as you gently try to nurse the car up to speed, which is livable until you realize that there is a speeding truck coming towards you. This is the norm for 2.3 turbo engines. They have their good days and their bad days. There are ways to remedy some of this, you can cut holes into the hood and body of the car to circulate more air, put more cooling fans in, bigger radiators intercoolers, or if you know someone in search and rescue or law enforcement, you might convince them to point their FLIR turret at you for a Thermographic shot of your engine bay, but even then, you still might encounter this problem.


As far as I have seen, I’ve been one of the few people willing to make a serious effort to supercharge a 2.3L engine. It is a great way to make power and not that hard to do. Finding the right device to supercharge with is key to this.


Right now my car is pushing out an Honest 345 HP on 11 PSI of boost, from a Lyshom 1600 AX and a cheap eBay aftercooler kit. I seriously doubt that I could duplicate the torque curve or driving characteristics of this system with a single turbo. My car is set up as a daily driver and has a conservative cam lift profile and a fragile automatic transmission, so I have purposely limited the power of the system. Lysholm claims my blower runs at 82% charge efficiency, which is better than the Garret turbo on my Merkur which is around 74%, which on the Garret, only occurs in a narrow portion of its operating range.

And then there are the mechanical reliability issues of turbos. I have boxes of broken turbo parts in my garage, I should throw them away. Because of their small fragile nature, inlet impellors on turbocharged engines are easy victims of damage along the leading edges. The smaller the turbo, the worse the problem is. Since the leading edges of an impellor are critical areas of the airfoil, even a small amount of erosion can significantly affect output. Small particles of dirt, not trapped by the inlet filter, are constantly at work destroying this critical area and it doesn’t take long for this to occur.

Then there are the exhaust housings. Go to a local wrecking yard and try to pull a turbo off of a car without breaking the hardware. If you are lucky enough to remove the turbo without breaking the hardware, you will probably find that the exhaust housings and manifolds are cracked.

On the plus side of turbo charging, the cost for turbos has come down dramatically. They make nice Christmas tree orniments...

[Smokestang88]

it would be sweet to do a supercharged 2.3L... sounds interesting

[ESG-642T]

Just because I don't want to quote all of that.

"Lyshom 1600 AX"
That isn't a centrifugal blower and that's what it looks like the OP is interested in.

As for the whole heat soak/ping going from personal experience its something I've yet to experience. I've heard it happen to a some people but then I look at the car turbo setup at meet and you can instantly tell why its a disaster.

I'll have to pull out my IR thermometer and check my temps one of these days in 105tx heat.

[OHC230]

"Lyshom 1600 AX"
That isn't a centrifugal blower and that's what it looks like the OP is interested in.

CG knows that I used to run a Vortech on a 2.3L; we talked about it in our last 2.3L supercharger thread. My car has been kind of a rolling experiment for the past few years. I have been experimenting with a few different mods to the engine. I’ve had a few different superchargers on it as well. So far the Lyholm is the best I’ve tested. I got very lucky and came across one for a really good price.


They work better than people think. Take a look below at this S2000.

[ESG-642T]

Originally Posted by OHC230 "Lyshom 1600 AX" That isn't a centrifugal blower and that's what it looks like the OP is interested in. CG knows that I used to run a Vortech on a 2.3L; we talked about it in our last 2.3L supercharger thread. My car has been kind of a rolling experiment for the past few years. I have been experimenting with a few different mods to the engine. I’ve had a few different superchargers on it as well. So far the Lyholm is the best I’ve tested. I got very lucky and came across one for a really good price. They work better than people think. Take a look below at this S2000.

I can go to meet thursday and take a pic of a vortech'd s2000 and a vortech'd integra , the s2000 pulls pretty good there is pretty much a mirror car of the integra with a gt28 on it and well ask me how that race goes

[Cgross609]

Why not show us a picture of your supercharged unit? I would like to build a S\C mount for my car from your design. Using an eaton M62 blower from a Buick park avenue ultra.

[OHC230]

I'm still in the middle of that project and I'm not ready to reveal my results just yet, but PM me and I'll help you get this rolling for your car. There are several ways to mount the blower and you need to decide which option will be best for you. Do you have your blower all ready?