Diagnos

07stanggt · June 17th, 2009, 06:06 PM

Driving at 65 exhuast note changes.

Car looses some power

pull over car is missing

no codes

no smoke

no engine noises no metal no knock. I have blown engines before i dont think there is anything wrong internally.

Unplug each coil some of them make a change some of them dont

Replace the plugs no improvement

po352 code. coil

clear all codes

change the coils no improvement. No codes

no vacuum leaks, smoke test

unhook maf car runs much worse so probably not that

fuel pressure is 25psi at idle

Temp on headers is 150 degrees on 3 4 and 8 300+ on the rest. I guess 3 4 and 8 are not doing much?

Right bank is a little rich.

What do you got for me MM? Im lost.

07 STROKER · June 17th, 2009, 06:21 PM

you have three dead cylinders..exhaust temp shuld be 300 degrees. Injectors.

07 STROKER · June 17th, 2009, 06:22 PM

unplug and swich up the injectors and see if the exhaust temp moves with the injector moves

QTRHORSE · June 17th, 2009, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by 07 procharger

unplug and swich up the injectors and see if the exhaust temp moves with the injector moves

exactly what I was thinking! + rep great advice!

QTRHORSE · June 17th, 2009, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by 07stanggt

Driving at 65 exhuast note changes.

Car looses some power

pull over car is missing

no codes

no smoke

no engine noises no metal no knock. I have blown engines before i dont think there is anything wrong internally.

Unplug each coil some of them make a change some of them dont

Replace the plugs no improvement

po352 code. coil

clear all codes

change the coils no improvement. No codes

no vacuum leaks, smoke test

unhook maf car runs much worse so probably not that

fuel pressure is 25psi at idle

Temp on headers is 150 degrees on 3 4 and 8 300+ on the rest. I guess 3 4 and 8 are not doing much?

Right bank is a little rich.

What do you got for me MM? Im lost.

Great info! hope it works out for ya!

kraigster · June 17th, 2009, 11:36 PM

Engineers for alot of manufacturers are turning off the injector drivers in the computor when an ignition missfire is detected. Try clearing the code and if that does nothing for you try disconecting the battery for 5 minutes.

xxxcobraxxx · June 18th, 2009, 08:49 PM

Code P0352

Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit

Description Each ignition primary circuit is continuously monitored. The test fails when the powertrain control module (PCM) does not receive a valid ignition diagnostic monitor (IDM) pulse signal from the ignition module (integrated in the PCM).
Possible Causes Open or short in the ignition START/RUN circuit
Open coil driver circuit in the harness
Coil driver circuit short to ground
Damaged coil
Coil driver circuit short to VPWR

Diagnostic Aids DTC P035x only sets for a coil primary circuit failure. A secondary ignition coil or spark plug failure does not set DTC P035x. DTC P030x does not set for a coil primary circuit malfunction. DTC P035x may set with or without DTC P030x; however DTC P035x sets first.
When this DTC is set, the PCM enters failure mode effects management (FMEM) which shuts down the injector for the associated cylinder in order to protect the catalytic converter. This is normal operation; do not attempt to diagnose the injector with this DTC present.
If a primary coil is damaged due to a harness short to ground the PCM will not be damaged. Do not replace the PCM without verifying the coil driver functionality.
Use the 12-volt non-powered test lamp to verify START/RUN voltage at the ignition coil harness connector.
Check the coil driver circuit for open, short to VPWR, or short to ground.

Can you check for KOER codes with a IDS?
Is this code in continous memory?

UrbanRedneck · June 18th, 2009, 09:42 PM

Did that coil code come up when you were unplugging coils to check for change? If so, that is probably why it came up.

So now it is deffinitely misfiring on those 3 cylidners, but no codes? Check that the coil is actually working. One way to do this is to remove it, plut it in with either a spark tester hooked to it, or a spark plug in it and ground the metal body of the plug with something. Start it and see if you have spark.

It sounds more like you may have an injector problem. Like I've said before, this stuff is real hard to do over the internet though. There's no proper way to balance test injectors without a scantool or injector timer either. First I'd unplug one of those injectors and check for power and pulse. You can rent a noid light from an auto parts store for this. Or you can use a high impedance test light (NOT a normal test light), one wire should have constant power, the other should pulse ground (it may be the other way around. Once again, I don't have a diagram in front of me and haven't really worked on any drivability issues on these cars yet). That way you'll know the injectors are supposed to be turning on.

ANother thing you can do is get a stethescope and listen to the injectors, you can hear them opening and closing, see if the offending cylinders are quiet. Checking compression on those 3 wouldn't hurt either, but I think you might need a special compression tester adapter for this engine.

So at this point you've already SWAGed the coils and plugs to no avail, so as long as the coils are getting power and pulse, that basically leaves the injectors. Without the ability to do any of the proper diagnostic methods for this, your best bet may be to do like others said and swap around a couple of them, they are real easy and I know you've done it before. Then see if the misfire moves. It'd be real strange though for 3 injectors or 3 coils to go bad at once. I'll have to look up the wiring and see if anything is common to those 3 cylinders.

I'm not sure what the rail pressure spec is, 25 PSI seems kinda low though. I'll look that up tomorrow.

07stanggt · June 19th, 2009, 08:27 AM

Thanks for the replies. I already replaced all of the injectors. It didnt work. After that I got a p0354 igntion coil d, im assuming cylinder 4.

The first po352 came after switching the spark plugs.

The car is at a shop now as I ran out of ideas and hadnt seen your post yet. But ill mention the things you listed cobra.

So what your post is saying cobra is a coil driver could be bad, or shorted?

If the pcm went into this safe mode and stoped firing these three cylinders wouldnt I get some type of code for that?

05bluestang · June 19th, 2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by 07stanggt

Thanks for the replies. I already replaced all of the injectors. It didnt work. After that I got a p0354 igntion coil d, im assuming cylinder 4.

The first po352 came after switching the spark plugs.

The car is at a shop now as I ran out of ideas and hadnt seen your post yet. But ill mention the things you listed cobra.

So what your post is saying cobra is a coil driver could be bad, or shorted?

If the pcm went into this safe mode and stoped firing these three cylinders wouldnt I get some type of code for that?

If you are in safe mode the little engine in the tach cluster would start blinking (trust me I know), also apparently there are different levels of safe mode as well.........................

xxxcobraxxx · June 19th, 2009, 12:19 PM

Just working off of the codes, coil driver b is cylinder #3. The pcm power relay feeds all coils power and the pcm grounds each coil to make it fire.
The white with pink wire is goes directly to the pcm from coil #3. The white whit pink wire needs to be check for short to ground, if it is shorted than it probably took out that coil. A short to ground does not cause a problem with the pcm. Now if a short to ground is the problem, whatever coil you plugged into cylinder #3 harness would have immediately shorted it out which could be why you have other cylinders down. It only take a couple seconds to kill the coil when shorted to ground.

The primary circuit code take presidence over the individual cylinder misfire
code P030X.

Hope this helps!! Let me know if you have any other questions.

navyman8903 · June 19th, 2009, 12:46 PM

Rich call justin. He should help out. It sounds like something he can use his magic on.

07 STROKER · June 19th, 2009, 12:49 PM

car has been at Justins since yesterday, all 8 coils are fireing. hes ynking the PCM right now.

beefmobile · June 19th, 2009, 12:54 PM

oooooooooooo maybe this could be a recall someday!

navyman8903 · June 19th, 2009, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by 07 procharger

car has been at Justins since yesterday, all 8 coils are fireing. hes ynking the PCM right now.

Sorry read too fast missed the shop part......And I also think that the pcm might be the problem. If he already replaced the coils/spark plugs, And cleared the codes........That is really the only thing left that is not some metal on metal problem. Or he has the worst short in the world.

But this is what happens at 1.8million miles. I am going to start changing chuck norris jokes to Rich Dunmire jokes.

I.E.:
Rich Dunmire destroyed the periodic table, because he only recognizes the element of suprise.

07 STROKER · June 19th, 2009, 01:21 PM

I like it.

UrbanRedneck · June 20th, 2009, 12:25 AM

If all 8 coils are firing, then it sounds even more like a fuel issue. I still haven't heard whether or not injector pulse was checked...

07stanggt · June 22nd, 2009, 01:31 PM

Mechanical

07 STROKER · June 22nd, 2009, 01:32 PM

I knew it.

07stanggt · June 22nd, 2009, 04:10 PM

runner on the intake manifold to the number two cylinder is extremely hot.

no compression in the number 2 cylinder.

valve.

Thats were i left it on saturday.

June 17th, 2009, 06:06 PM	#1
07stanggt I Post Entirely Way Too Much 2007 GT Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ellicott City, MD Posts: 11,951 iTrader: 1 reviews	Diagnos Driving at 65 exhuast note changes. Car looses some power pull over car is missing no codes no smoke no engine noises no metal no knock. I have blown engines before i dont think there is anything wrong internally. Unplug each coil some of them make a change some of them dont Replace the plugs no improvement po352 code. coil clear all codes change the coils no improvement. No codes no vacuum leaks, smoke test unhook maf car runs much worse so probably not that fuel pressure is 25psi at idle Temp on headers is 150 degrees on 3 4 and 8 300+ on the rest. I guess 3 4 and 8 are not doing much? Right bank is a little rich. What do you got for me MM? Im lost. Last edited by 07stanggt; June 17th, 2009 at 06:10 PM.

June 17th, 2009, 06:21 PM	#2
07 STROKER MM's resident Juice head 07 Mustang GT Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: PA Posts: 7,933 iTrader: 0 reviews	you have three dead cylinders..exhaust temp shuld be 300 degrees. Injectors. __________________ The MGW short throw shifter Its not just a shifter...It's a lifestyle!

June 17th, 2009, 11:36 PM	#6
kraigster Enthusiast 2007 Mustang GT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: St.Petersburg, Fl Posts: 568 iTrader: 0 reviews	Engineers for alot of manufacturers are turning off the injector drivers in the computor when an ignition missfire is detected. Try clearing the code and if that does nothing for you try disconecting the battery for 5 minutes. __________________ Saleen rear fascia with center exhaust, MAC longtubes with o/r Prochamber, Steeda CAI w/carbon fiber elbow, SCT X3, Steeda UDPs, Hurst shifter, modified delete plates, Comp Cams and 4.10s.

June 18th, 2009, 09:42 PM	#8
UrbanRedneck Hardcore Enthusiast 2008 Mustang GT 13.124@105.52 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,138 iTrader: 1 reviews	Did that coil code come up when you were unplugging coils to check for change? If so, that is probably why it came up. So now it is deffinitely misfiring on those 3 cylidners, but no codes? Check that the coil is actually working. One way to do this is to remove it, plut it in with either a spark tester hooked to it, or a spark plug in it and ground the metal body of the plug with something. Start it and see if you have spark. It sounds more like you may have an injector problem. Like I've said before, this stuff is real hard to do over the internet though. There's no proper way to balance test injectors without a scantool or injector timer either. First I'd unplug one of those injectors and check for power and pulse. You can rent a noid light from an auto parts store for this. Or you can use a high impedance test light (NOT a normal test light), one wire should have constant power, the other should pulse ground (it may be the other way around. Once again, I don't have a diagram in front of me and haven't really worked on any drivability issues on these cars yet). That way you'll know the injectors are supposed to be turning on. ANother thing you can do is get a stethescope and listen to the injectors, you can hear them opening and closing, see if the offending cylinders are quiet. Checking compression on those 3 wouldn't hurt either, but I think you might need a special compression tester adapter for this engine. So at this point you've already SWAGed the coils and plugs to no avail, so as long as the coils are getting power and pulse, that basically leaves the injectors. Without the ability to do any of the proper diagnostic methods for this, your best bet may be to do like others said and swap around a couple of them, they are real easy and I know you've done it before. Then see if the misfire moves. It'd be real strange though for 3 injectors or 3 coils to go bad at once. I'll have to look up the wiring and see if anything is common to those 3 cylinders. I'm not sure what the rail pressure spec is, 25 PSI seems kinda low though. I'll look that up tomorrow. __________________ Hurst Crew Member #20 2008 GT - ARH, C&L, Hurst, BORLA, BMR, Bilstein, FRPP, Axle Exchange. Awesome. Last edited by UrbanRedneck; June 18th, 2009 at 09:45 PM.

June 19th, 2009, 08:27 AM	#9
07stanggt I Post Entirely Way Too Much 2007 GT Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ellicott City, MD Posts: 11,951 iTrader: 1 reviews	Thanks for the replies. I already replaced all of the injectors. It didnt work. After that I got a p0354 igntion coil d, im assuming cylinder 4. The first po352 came after switching the spark plugs. The car is at a shop now as I ran out of ideas and hadnt seen your post yet. But ill mention the things you listed cobra. So what your post is saying cobra is a coil driver could be bad, or shorted? If the pcm went into this safe mode and stoped firing these three cylinders wouldnt I get some type of code for that? Last edited by 07stanggt; June 19th, 2009 at 08:33 AM.

June 17th, 2009, 06:22 PM	#3
07 STROKER MM's resident Juice head 07 Mustang GT Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: PA Posts: 7,933 iTrader: 0 reviews	unplug and swich up the injectors and see if the exhaust temp moves with the injector moves __________________ The MGW short throw shifter Its not just a shifter...It's a lifestyle!

June 18th, 2009, 08:49 PM	#7
xxxcobraxxx Newbie Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 37 iTrader: 0 reviews	Code P0352 Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Description Each ignition primary circuit is continuously monitored. The test fails when the powertrain control module (PCM) does not receive a valid ignition diagnostic monitor (IDM) pulse signal from the ignition module (integrated in the PCM). Possible Causes Open or short in the ignition START/RUN circuit Open coil driver circuit in the harness Coil driver circuit short to ground Damaged coil Coil driver circuit short to VPWR Diagnostic Aids DTC P035x only sets for a coil primary circuit failure. A secondary ignition coil or spark plug failure does not set DTC P035x. DTC P030x does not set for a coil primary circuit malfunction. DTC P035x may set with or without DTC P030x; however DTC P035x sets first. When this DTC is set, the PCM enters failure mode effects management (FMEM) which shuts down the injector for the associated cylinder in order to protect the catalytic converter. This is normal operation; do not attempt to diagnose the injector with this DTC present. If a primary coil is damaged due to a harness short to ground the PCM will not be damaged. Do not replace the PCM without verifying the coil driver functionality. Use the 12-volt non-powered test lamp to verify START/RUN voltage at the ignition coil harness connector. Check the coil driver circuit for open, short to VPWR, or short to ground. Can you check for KOER codes with a IDS? Is this code in continous memory?

June 19th, 2009, 12:19 PM	#11
xxxcobraxxx Newbie Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 37 iTrader: 0 reviews	Just working off of the codes, coil driver b is cylinder #3. The pcm power relay feeds all coils power and the pcm grounds each coil to make it fire. The white with pink wire is goes directly to the pcm from coil #3. The white whit pink wire needs to be check for short to ground, if it is shorted than it probably took out that coil. A short to ground does not cause a problem with the pcm. Now if a short to ground is the problem, whatever coil you plugged into cylinder #3 harness would have immediately shorted it out which could be why you have other cylinders down. It only take a couple seconds to kill the coil when shorted to ground. The primary circuit code take presidence over the individual cylinder misfire code P030X. Hope this helps!! Let me know if you have any other questions.

June 19th, 2009, 12:49 PM	#13
07 STROKER MM's resident Juice head 07 Mustang GT Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: PA Posts: 7,933 iTrader: 0 reviews	car has been at Justins since yesterday, all 8 coils are fireing. hes ynking the PCM right now. __________________ The MGW short throw shifter Its not just a shifter...It's a lifestyle!

June 19th, 2009, 01:21 PM	#16
07 STROKER MM's resident Juice head 07 Mustang GT Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: PA Posts: 7,933 iTrader: 0 reviews	I like it. __________________ The MGW short throw shifter Its not just a shifter...It's a lifestyle!

June 20th, 2009, 12:25 AM	#17
UrbanRedneck Hardcore Enthusiast 2008 Mustang GT 13.124@105.52 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,138 iTrader: 1 reviews	If all 8 coils are firing, then it sounds even more like a fuel issue. I still haven't heard whether or not injector pulse was checked... __________________ Hurst Crew Member #20 2008 GT - ARH, C&L, Hurst, BORLA, BMR, Bilstein, FRPP, Axle Exchange. Awesome.

June 22nd, 2009, 01:31 PM	#18
07stanggt I Post Entirely Way Too Much 2007 GT Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ellicott City, MD Posts: 11,951 iTrader: 1 reviews	Mechanical

June 22nd, 2009, 01:32 PM	#19
07 STROKER MM's resident Juice head 07 Mustang GT Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: PA Posts: 7,933 iTrader: 0 reviews	I knew it. __________________ The MGW short throw shifter Its not just a shifter...It's a lifestyle!

June 22nd, 2009, 04:10 PM	#20
07stanggt I Post Entirely Way Too Much 2007 GT Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ellicott City, MD Posts: 11,951 iTrader: 1 reviews	runner on the intake manifold to the number two cylinder is extremely hot. no compression in the number 2 cylinder. valve. Thats were i left it on saturday.

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