[Flapjack]

Hey everyone. This is my first time posting, so go easy on me. I spend a lot of time over at the 4.0 Collective, but a project like this kinda blurs the boundaries...

Some of you might know me from other forums... I currently have a 2005 4.0L V6 putting down 440 RWHP. This is with 14lbs of boost along with stage 3 heads and cams from SSM.

I really started to think about long-term goals for this car, and I just don't see the V6 in it's future. Currently, I have several options, all built around the goal of F/I without a positive-displacement blower (ie: centri or turbo):

1) Stick with V6 platform. Soon, there will be a 4.5L forged crank available for the 4.0L. The crank has been the sticking point, as there was no feasible way to make a stroker work with this engine. The new crank, along with billet connecting rods and forged piston from SSM could make for a winning combo. Couple this with the fact that there may be be an aftermarket intake manifold (collaboration between Doug @ BamaChips and Dave @ ExplorerExpress), and this could be a formula for a great engine.

2) Build up a 4.6L for a swap... possibly stroked/bored to a 302.

3) Build up a 5.4L (from an F150/F250)

Personally, option 3 is my favorite. I can get a 5.4L from an 04 F250 that has pretty much all the accessories still attached. Since this block already has a forged crank, it's a good starting point in my opinion. I would polish and balance the crank, then go with forged rods and pistons. I'd also look at options for boring and installing larger pistons to increase output to 5.7, 5.8 (not sure what's available).

Since the gasoline-powered F150/F250 is N/A, it'll have a normal intake manifold which would work perfectly for my choice of F/I. I'm leaning towards a turbo, but may reuse my D1SC through an agreement with ATI. They can provide any bracketing/tubing necessary to convert my current 4.0 setup to the 5.4L.

Right now, I'm just trying to lay the groundwork for such a project. I'll be using a TR6060 with the engine, but may wait for the Corvette version for a better 6th gear ratio. Since this platform has already been used in the GT500, it should be a fairly simple hurdle to overcome.

What I'm most worried about is the wiring harness. I know I can't use the GT500 wiring harness because it's for a DOHC engine. I was thinking the regular GT harness could work, as the V6 shares many of it's electronics. My only concern would be the differences in engine sensors between the 4.0L and the Triton engine (ie: coolant, oil pressure, crank position).

Another big concern is that the 4.0L uses a throttle-by-wire setup, which the 5.4L may or may not have (need to research).

Finally, my last concern is for the transmission. The GT has a cable-actuated clutch, IIRC. I have no idea how the TR6060's clutch is actuated, but that may be a problem, too.

So I figured I'd pick your guys (and gals) brains to see what possible solutions are available and any other areas I'm sure I missed.

Thanks in advance!

[Regency 2007]

I use to be over at the F-150 forums and guys can get about a little over 500 (crank) hp out of them before thy go boom!

How much doe are you willing to spend? If I were you I would wait til the dealer markup goes dwn a little on the GT500's then you are good for 800rwhp safely!

[Flapjack]

Well, what on the engine is going boom? I mean, it's not like I'm going to be putting the stock Triton engine in then throwing 20psi at it. The only thing that will stay is the crank, and that's gonna get polished and balanced. The rods and pistons will be forged, along with better connecting pins. If I stay with the 3-valve heads, they'll be ported, polished and hooked up with bigger valves. I've heard those heads will flow hella good if you do a P&P on them.

Still, I've considered putting the 4-valve GT500 heads on it. Then I'd be able to use the GT500 wiring harness, and everything would probably be good. The only issue is if the GT500 heads bolt on to the Triton block w/o issue. I've heard it can be done, but needs some modification.

[Regency 2007]

how much will all that cost you? Why not buy a GT500 motor but without the eaton blower on it... if you can even do that?

[stanglifemike]

Dont have any helpful info, but I would love to see pics of your 6.

[Flapjack]

Originally Posted by Regency 2007 how much will all that cost you? Why not buy a GT500 motor but without the eaton blower on it... if you can even do that?

I have no idea yet. Luckily, I won't be dumping a whole lot down at one time. I'll just do something different each paycheck.

I really need to find out if I can put a different manifold on the GT500 motor. I've been hearing there are cheaper places to get that engine from, other than those crazies on Ebay selling for 15k...

Originally Posted by stanglifemike Dont have any helpful info, but I would love to see pics of your 6.

No problem. These should shed a little light as to why I would like to keep this car and do the engine swap instead....


Exterior:
http://www.mustangcollective.com/showthread.php?t=8908

Those obnoxious exhaust tips have been replaced by these:
http://www.mustangcollective.com/showthread.php?t=9489

Suspension/Exhaust:
http://www.mustangcollective.com/showthread.php?t=9488

Interior:
http://www.mustangcollective.com/showthread.php?t=7003

HID conversion:
http://www.mustangcollective.com/showthread.php?t=6909

Lemme know if I missed something.

[itschristorres8]

your looking at a lot of work and money

and modifing and fabricating...better off modding your 6, with a s/c or turbo, see more power

[LV51FER]

The only thing I would say is that the 4.6 is a lot lighter than the iron engine which muddies the handling but it depends what you want it for. I would rather a supercharged 4.6 than a GT500 from a handling point of view.

That apart, you know far more than I do. LOL.

[Flapjack]

Originally Posted by itschristorres8 your looking at a lot of work and money and modifing and fabricating...better off modding your 6, with a s/c or turbo, see more power

I already have a heavily modded V6, putting down 440 RWHP. I'm not worried about the work, just whether it's possible or not.

Originally Posted by LV51FER The only thing I would say is that the 4.6 is a lot lighter than the iron engine which muddies the handling but it depends what you want it for. I would rather a supercharged 4.6 than a GT500 from a handling point of view. That apart, you know far more than I do. LOL.

I understand the 5.4L weighs more, but the reason I DO like it is because it's iron. I don't trust aluminum block engines. I really believe one of the reasons my 4.0L has taken the abuse is partly because of it's iron block (though mostly because of a good tune).

[FireryDriver]

well you definately know alot more than me about this but I support your idea to stick with the iron block and go for the 5.4L. I'm sure it will hold up fine with all the work you intend to put into it because if you can make a the v6 pump out 440 at the wheels and not blow up in your face, I'm confident you'll be able to do this no problem

[Flapjack]

I hope so.

[rugbyman00]

me and my cousin were sittin hear bored and a little drunk reading this and we both came up with some solutions.

My cousin is a Ford trained mechanic that use to work in the SVT development center. now he owns his own shop and brews beer and makes babies.

but anyways....

I think you should just keep it the way you have it, bad ass stang.... for a V6 haha, j/k. Buy an older fox body and make it run in the 8s.

MY cousin who owns a 86 that runs 10.4s 10.5s (with cheater nos)
says you should swap out the engine for a completely built all aluminum SC ford V10.

but then again he still sniffs markers.....


but one bit of advice that he says makes since is EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE, it just cost money.

[Flapjack]

The engine ships today! There was a bit of a concern regarding a broken bracket. Their Ford-certified engine tech looked at it and declared it a "dummy" bracket. They have the piece and it can be easily welded back on, so no concern either way. Just for good measure, they gave me a couple hundred off in case it needs to be welded.

It's going straight to the engine shop where it'll be broken down and inspected. From there, the shop will work up a quote to rebuild with forged rods and pistons; polish and balance the crank; and do a port & polish on the heads.

[Flapjack]

Originally Posted by rugbyman00 me and my cousin were sittin hear bored and a little drunk reading this and we both came up with some solutions. My cousin is a Ford trained mechanic that use to work in the SVT development center. now he owns his own shop and brews beer and makes babies. but anyways.... I think you should just keep it the way you have it, bad ass stang.... for a V6 haha, j/k. Buy an older fox body and make it run in the 8s. MY cousin who owns a 86 that runs 10.4s 10.5s (with cheater nos) says you should swap out the engine for a completely built all aluminum SC ford V10. but then again he still sniffs markers..... but one bit of advice that he says makes since is EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE, it just cost money.

Hahah, thanks for the reply. You know what, though... I already have enough vehicles. It's getting a little ridiculous.

- 2005 4.0L Mustang
- 2007 Yamaha YZF-R1
- 1991 Full-size Chevy Blazer
- 1975 Datsun 280Z (with a Chevy 350 transplant, haha!)

As for a dedicated track car, that's what the Datsun will eventually be. When I finish with the 5.4L swap, I'm gonna turn the Datsun's engine into a 383 stroker. It'll be my first build (aside from any required machining). Looking forward to it. After that, I may fabricate my own turbo for it. I need to beef up the rear end, first. I'm either gonna try and find a rear end from a 280ZX Turbo (those things are bulletproof) and do a CV retrofit on it, or just take it to a diff shop and put a Chevy rear with straight axles. I'm kinda leaning towards the latter, as the independent rear suspension on that thing is kinda pissing me off....

[impetus]

Originally Posted by rugbyman00 [snip] MY cousin who owns a 86 that runs 10.4s 10.5s (with cheater nos) says you should swap out the engine for a completely built all aluminum SC ford V10. but then again he still sniffs markers..... [snip2]

aluminum V10? where can we get one? i found a "one off" low deck 351 (281 +2) ford made here *drool.
attention ford/after market... if you build it, we will buy it

Flapjack, how much room you figure the 5.4 is going to take up? they are pretty wide, no?

[TDog]

Here she is ! drool
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-...spagenameZWD1V

[impetus]

yo TDog, that GT500 engine "Does not include vehicle wiring and PCM."

just a heads up.

[edit for grammar]

[TDog]

Dangit ! for 15K, you'd think it would.
tanx

[Flapjack]

Originally Posted by impetus Flapjack, how much room you figure the 5.4 is going to take up? they are pretty wide, no?

Not sure. I do know it's more than the 4.6, but whether I'll have to relocate anything around the engine, I won't know until I put it in.

Sometime soon, I'm going start calling local Ford dealers to see if they have a GT500 on the showroom floor. That way, I can see what the 5.4L looks like in the engine bay, and what all has been "moved" around.

Originally Posted by TDog Here she is ! drool http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-...spagenameZWD1V

That is ridiculous. What a ripoff. That price doesn't even factor in tranny, clutch, tranny crossmember, shifter, driveshaft, wiring harness, ECU, etc...

The engine I'll be building will be around 400 RWHP without the blower! I paid $1650 shipped for the engine (got a little discount from Certified Auto Recyclers), the rods and pistons will cost a little under $1000, and the engine work will be about $1500, to include labor on the P&P job for the heads. The 3v heads will be flowing better than the stock 4v GT500 ones.

All around, it'll be a better, stronger engine than the one they're trying to pawn off on Ebay.

[Flapjack]

Got a plan for the tranny!

Dave @ D&D Performance pretty firmly recommended against using the 3650. Even beefed up, it would not be able to handle what I'm planning.

They will be getting both the GM and Ford TR6060 kits in about 2 weeks. He's gonna look into whether I can use the Ford housing and GM internals (to get that sweet 6th gear the Corvette will be using) or not. He's said he's pretty sure the internals will work, but since it's a new tranny, he won't know until they actually come in.

Anyways, he's talking about around $3500 for a beefed up TR6060, warrantied to 700 HP, including trans crossmember, shifter, clutch, and custom aluminum driveshaft. It will be ready to bolt up to the 8.8" rearend.

He said since it's a not standard application, that he'll ship the tranny first. Once I get the engine and tranny installed, I'll take a measurement from tranny to rearend so I can be sure it'll match up. They'll make a new driveshaft if necessary.

I'm glad I didn't jump on that Ebay one for $4000. What a ripoff.

Thanks to Termin8orFox over at ModFords for putting me in touch with D&D Performance.