[acidtonic]

I've been thinking about an extremely high revving NA build for my 97 Cobra with minimal weight as the second priority.

As a major disclaimer I'm quite aware that there are MANY better ways to make power. I know this, and I know it will wear things out faster. I just want to learn more about this setup. I dont want to hear a million sarcastic replies about better methods to make power. Lets get technical.

So basically I'm curious what all could be done to get a very high revving NA build.

Ideas like.....

Destroking
less cam lift, custom grind
aftermarket ignition and custom fuel maps
light weight rotation assembly, pistons, rods etc.
transmission built for the high revs
oil system upgrades
B heads with the best port/polish money can buy
Full valve train work and lighter stronger valves
Intake tuning, variable runner length similar to FR500?
Timing/tune adjustment
race fuel?

Now answer me this..... Can we spin this thing past 10K? 13,500? 15,000?

What kind of time between rebuilds if the driver is not an idiot and lets things warm up, with perfect maintenance?

I expect it to be less.... but what kind of power and sadly, torque? How large can we make the power band?

Its one of those "power over time" problems where I think its possible to apply more power over time with a large power band and almost zero interruption yet retain the extreme light weight of normal transmissions without the heavy dual clutch interruption free trannies.

This would be fun for a completely gutted weekend road race car under 2400lbs like perhaps a kit car.

I know I might be, but am I crazy? Does this sound like something attainable if every mod is for raising revs? I understand this would be very expensive. I just want the technical ideas thought about. Thanks for reading.

[futureMACH1racer]

It would certainly be exspensive, alot of custom one off parts, but the coolness factor would be off of the charts. I think that you should try to do this. I reccomend Modular Performance here is a link,

Ford Performance Parts, Mustang, Novi, MI

[acidtonic]

Originally Posted by futureMACH1racer It would certainly be exspensive, alot of custom one off parts, but the coolness factor would be off of the charts. I think that you should try to do this. I reccomend Modular Performance here is a link, Ford Performance Parts, Mustang, Novi, MI

Wow yeah they are less than an hour away from here, great rec. Thanks!

The video of the wheelstand just rocks. It roars all the way past the camera on two wheels. Awesome work. I might give these guys a call.
http://65.109.173.141/catapano_wheel_stand.mpg

[futureMACH1racer]

Where you located?

[Doc8224]

I don't think you will be able to turn it past 10k or realy want to. you are way out of useable torque even at 9k so having a v8 would be pointless if you wanna turn that. I don't think you could find a spring setup to keep the valves from floating and having severe valve rotation and valve to seat "bounce"

[futureMACH1racer]

He'll have to get custom order from Ja.. Pan

[HMUSN]

there is a difference between a bike and a car man..

[acidtonic]

Any technical reason? There is always a weakest link, what is it? How much farther would the best of breed replacement allow it to go? I was hoping for a technical conversation here....

How far can we make it go then if 10K is out of the question. This isnt supposed to be a motor cycle, but rather a different approach to a very specific problem to test the limits.

You're telling me with specific parts, a custom build, tune, and planning that this teksid block cannot spin faster? If your only reason is because it wont last a year and might need replacement then please specify. I'm expecting wear to be an issue.

This being a specialized experiment I'm going into this knowing that things will need more attention and replacement. Planning the length between rebuilds is surely in order here and I'm just asking for some comments on the matter. I want to modify/build a car and be able to work on it with performance similar to high end sports cars. Have you ever looked at how expensive any repair/modification on a 911 Turbo is? I just dont care to spend that kind of money to be so abstracted from choice. I want to build up a modular because I know it can be almost as smooth and rev just as high if not higher for almost nothing compared to 100+K sports cars.

The traditional route would be more like a single turbo, built IRS, and extreme weight reduction but I want to try a different path. I want to try a Watts link Griggs setup, in an ultra light car, with a high NA redline and perhaps a Motec unit for managing everything plus traction control. Handling and sustained acceleration being the key points.

The low torque can be fixed with rear end gears and a custom ratio trans to boost the low points on the dyno graph for expected turn speeds, and tuning the intake runners cross over point. Remember this is for light street, heavy track use. I dont care about 0-60 as much.

Somehow I knew I'd get a thread full of sarcastic one liners. Do we speak tech around here? It probably is a bit out there for sure, but hell I want to talk about it and establish some expectations. It just sounds like a fun problem to attack and I'm not 100% going to build this. Feasible?

[Mustang RacR94]

even 10K is alot to ask out of one of these motors. its the same basic principal of why a motor runs out of avaiable horsepower its able to get, there are just limits to what some motors can do.

i do beleive its possible to make it rev up to 10K or slightly higher. you will have to get almost every single part completely custom made. as i dont know what would limit the mtor to reving up this high, doc is def on the right track with the valves thu. def should try it thu, all in all its gonna be alot of money but itd be neat, my friends 355 in his IROC rev'd up to a little over 10K and that was pretty neat, then again it had 40+ grand into the motor.

[acidtonic]

so with this custom build what kind of power do you think is attainable?

I'd be delighted with 350rwhp which might be a stretch to achieve. I've heard normal NA 4v builds to top off around 325-425rwhp range. Would 325rwhp out of this less aggressive build be reachable?

I could settle for that only with this heavy weight reduction. 305 in a 2800lb car feels like significantly more, I can imagine a smooth 325rwhp in an even lighter car to still be a fun time...

Perhaps just a dual clutch sequential transmission and a single small turbo to make up for the weight would be more in order. That would still solve the power interruption problem.

Somehow i was expecting 10K+ to be reachable with all those mods. Sad.

[acmillr]

10K would be a stiff order for the motor. The Teksid block would be garbage soon after the first couple of runs, and I don't know of a transmission made that would shift at that RPM (manual) or keep clutches (automatic). 350 RWHP with a 4v would be a cakewalk. I would imagine the stock bottom end could be used and reach that goal.

[futureMACH1racer]

IMHO Full boltons, ported intake, stage 1 N/A cams and some minor headwork. Should net you around your goal.

[futureMACH1racer]

Acidtonic, where in MI are you located? I'm from MI.

[acidtonic]

Originally Posted by futureMACH1racer Acidtonic, where in MI are you located? I'm from MI.

Royal Oak

in between 13 and 14 mile off Woodward.

How about you?

[futureMACH1racer]

I grew up in Romeo, I know RO real well. Like 35mi and Van Dyke

[oc192]

BOSS 302 Iron Block 5.0 Liter handle up to 900 hp. Manley Forged Pistons, 4340 Manley
Forged H-Beam Rods w/ARP bolts, forged crankshaft fully balanced and
blueprinted Cobra heads , ARP head studs, Felpro head gaskets,
and a High Volume oil pump. The list get longer if you're serious.

[Goblin]

Originally Posted by Doc8224 I don't think you will be able to turn it past 10k or realy want to. you are way out of useable torque even at 9k so having a v8 would be pointless if you wanna turn that. I don't think you could find a spring setup to keep the valves from floating and having severe valve rotation and valve to seat "bounce"

Im not really sure if the light of day can be seen above 10k rpm, but i know alot of the NMRA 2v guys running in Real Street are seeing 8200-8400rpm, with strict rules against valve train components. Theres less BS going on in a 2v head, compared to a 4v head, but i dont see why it wouldnt be "doable."

Alot of money spent, in the right places could make it happen. Also alot of money.... Did i say alot of money? Yeah, alot of money to spin an engine up to 10k.









Alot of money.

[Goblin]

Oh, and FYI. Al Pappito spins his N/A 5.4 4v up to 9,000rpm.

A guy that used to work for VT Engines, before all the BS happened, had an N/A 4.6 4v that he spun past 8500rpm, and still drove the car on the street. Car ran low 10s.

[Drgnracin72]

Originally Posted by oc192 BOSS 302 Iron Block 5.0 Liter handle up to 900 hp. Manley Forged Pistons, 4340 Manley Forged H-Beam Rods w/ARP bolts, forged crankshaft fully balanced and blueprinted Cobra heads , ARP head studs, Felpro head gaskets, and a High Volume oil pump. The list get longer if you're serious.

now you do realise that the boss 302 block is a pushrod motor and not a modular, so how are you gonna make that combo work? just curious

[SWEET2KSTANG]

off mmr's website:

NEW 5.0 BOSS CAST IRON BLOCK
This Brand new block cast at the Cleveland plant gives you a healty .4 liters more than a factory block while still using the factory stroke crank shaft! Add a MMR Stroker crank and you have up to 324 Cubic Inches/5.3 liters of Modular Muscle! ALL 96-2008 2V, 3V and 4V heads bolt right on!