[econobarn]

Originally Posted by JBIGBOOTSY I crapped on my keyboard with my fingers and don't have the ability to use logic or read graphs

Way to show how intelligent you really are, congratulations. I'm glad you can't comprehend how to read a graph or post information backing your theory...instead you resort to insults.

Edit: I guess you got confused by the "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" at the bottom of the graph? I'm sorry I didn't make the graph stupid proof for you. I'll keep that in mind next time I compile any kind of information for your feeble little brain, ok?

[JBIGBOOTSY]

Originally Posted by econobarn My dad hates me cause I'm gay. I sleep on my belly with my underwear on backwards! Edit: I guess you got confused by the "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" at the bottom of the graph? I'm sorry I didn't make the graph stupid proof for you. I'll keep that in mind next time I compile any kind of information for your feeble little brain, ok?

Sorry about your dad, but since you have no refrence as to what 1-11 are or what 100-500 is, i figured RPM and torque?

[econobarn]

Originally Posted by JBIGBOOTSY Sorry about your dad, but since you have no refrence as to what 1-11 are or what 100-500 is, i figured RPM and torque?

Here, let me help you read my post:

Originally Posted by econobarn I made that with the data from AFR's Ford Dyno Page (Air Flow Research Cylinder Heads) using 165cc combo 1 and 185cc combo 3. Larger heads, larger short runner intake...so, who makes more power? Which would be more driveable (if you could even tell the difference around town)...? Why on earth would we want to be able to fill the cylinder faster with less movement of the valve, that's a stupid crazy idea, isn't it?

[JBIGBOOTSY]

If its hp, and rpm, then the smaller heads make more average power. Most of us dont redline the car at 11k.

[superbean]

Originally Posted by econobarn Hi, I'm econobarn. This is my first post. I drive a 17 second 4 banger chevy pickup that traps at 81mph and I'm tired of misinformation and stupid on the internet. Anyone who is debating with 1slo5.0 and 93mustank on this issue really needs to go back to the drawing boards and re-learn engine theory. How is inhibiting flow in any fashion going to create power? It can't unless you live in imagination land. Do you live in imagination land, flyin ryan? 93mustank mentioned the ford modular motors and the GM's LSx series and someone above said don't open that can of worms? Why not? Is it not basic engine theory? I even just made this graph for another winner on another forum... I made that with the data from AFR's Ford Dyno Page (Air Flow Research Cylinder Heads) using 165cc combo 1 and 185cc combo 3. Larger heads, larger short runner intake...so, who makes more power? Which would be more driveable (if you could even tell the difference around town)...? Why on earth would we want to be able to fill the cylinder faster with less movement of the valve, that's a stupid crazy idea, isn't it?

Down low the torque curve is very similar for both sets of heads. On a 400 whp motor, you will NOT feel 10/15 lb ft tq loss, but you will surely feel the 40/50 hp/tq increase on the top end.

RPM makes power

[econobarn]

Originally Posted by JBIGBOOTSY If its hp, and rpm, then the smaller heads make more average power. Most of us dont redline the car at 11k.

You're still not reading my post. Where on the AFR site do you see numbers for anything above 6100RPM for 302 combos 1 and 3?

[JBIGBOOTSY]

3lbft at 1million rpm is 575hp!

[JBIGBOOTSY]

Originally Posted by econobarn You're still not reading my post. Where on the AFR site do you see numbers for anything above 6100RPM for 302 combos 1 and 3?

on the graph you said I couldn't read.

[econobarn]

Originally Posted by JBIGBOOTSY on the graph you said I couldn't read.

I'm done replying to you until you post something intelligent within this thread.

[JBIGBOOTSY]

You dont have to sell me on large runner heads. Your logic is sound, but your graph sux, I wouldn't post that graph anymore, its confusing as to the actual info on the afr site.

[econobarn]

Originally Posted by JBIGBOOTSY You dont have to sell me on large runner heads. Your logic is sound, but your graph sux, I wouldn't post that graph anymore, its confusing as to the actual info on the afr site.

There, I updated it just for you

[JBIGBOOTSY]

I see what you did there.

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by stfudvs do you think you could have gotten more power or improved performance at all with a chip and a tune on a wideband

With a chip, yes. I personally don't use a wideband for anything other than monitoring the a/f ratio. Quite honestly I rarely use a wideband on anything. I tune for the best acceleration, not for specific air/fuel ratios or peak horspower like some people are stuck on. I'll baseline on a dyno because curiousity gets the best of me but I rarely tune anything on a dyno unless I see an issue that needs to be addressed. I do all my tuning at the dragstrip.

[superbean]

I honestly think this.........

Daily driver cars usually arent too wild right? maybe some p heads, bolt on intake and some exhaust work... it makes decent power, it's cheap, nothing too wild...

race cars use all top end parts because going fast is $$$$$

It's very hard to balance $ vs speed. I like throwing my setups together (with reserach yes of course) and seeing what they can do!

who cares if it makes the most power or the most torque. E.t. is E.t. and mph is mph.

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by superbean I honestly think this......... Daily driver cars usually arent too wild right? maybe some p heads, bolt on intake and some exhaust work... it makes decent power, it's cheap, nothing too wild... race cars use all top end parts because going fast is $$$$$ It's very hard to balance $ vs speed. I like throwing my setups together (with reserach yes of course) and seeing what they can do!

Yes and no. Very often you hear things like "budget" and "low end power" associated with small ports, low compression and low rpm. The fact is, small ports and low compression make for a very inefficient engine. Moving the rpm range from 2000-5000 to 3000-7000 rpm does not have any affect on driveability other than the fact that the car is going to be more responsive and have more horsepower. People also think they are saving alot of money by using junk yard Explorer heads which usually is not the case. Keep in mind these heads will need at minimum $300 in parts and labor, at minimum. The heads will need to be cleaned, surfaced, valve job, valve guides, valve seals, valve springs, retainers and valve locks and possibly a set of valves. By the time your done you could by a set of used aluminum heads. Sure, you could just throw on a set of 150,000 mile heads but why would you want to do that and risk engine damage due to worn out valvetrain parts?

[superbean]

Best bet is to find someone that learned that thier setup doesn't work, and find their stuff real cheap.

I got a set of gt40p heads with 3k miles on them, cleaned with brand new seats, titanium locks and retainers .560 lift springs, 1.6 roller rockers for 400 plus shipping..

Most people buy a set of stock gt40ps for around 250 and slap them on neglecting the valve train upgrades to make them reliable.

[1slo5.0]

Also, I don't know why people think a race engine can't be driven at any speed besides wide open throttle. Any engine that doesn't function normally at all rpm is either a piss poor combination or is way out of tune. The only reason most people don't put race engines on the street is because of wear and tear on the parts. The parts are expensive and most people don't want to put anymore wear on them than necessary. Other than that, most "race engines" are totally streetable. My black car made 742hp and ran 9.30s. It made power all over the place and I drove it everywhere. It ran great at 2000 rpm and it ran great at 7000 rpm. Idle, part throttle, wide open throttle.......didn't matter. It ran great in heavy city traffic as well as cruising down the freeway at 70mph. It had sewer sized ports and a big solid roller and 3 1/2" exhaust that everyone says is too big and kills torque

[superbean]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 Also, I don't know why people think a race engine can't be driven at any speed besides wide open throttle. Any engine that doesn't function normally at all rpm is either a piss poor combination or is way out of tune. The only reason most people don't put race engines on the street is because of wear and tear on the parts. The parts are expensive and most people don't want to put anymore wear on them than necessary. Other than that, most "race engines" are totally streetable. My black car made 742hp and ran 9.30s. It made power all over the place and I drove it everywhere. It ran great at 2000 rpm and it ran great at 7000 rpm. Idle, part throttle, wide open throttle.......didn't matter. It ran great in heavy city traffic as well as cruising down the freeway at 70mph. It had sewer sized ports and a big solid roller and 3 1/2" exhaust that everyone says is too big and kills torque

That's what I like to hear. Why build a car if you can't drive it on the street?

But yes, constantly spinning a car to 7k rpm does wear out a lot of expensive parts..

[stfudvs]

Originally Posted by superbean I honestly think this......... Daily driver cars usually arent too wild right? maybe some p heads, bolt on intake and some exhaust work... it makes decent power, it's cheap, nothing too wild... race cars use all top end parts because going fast is $$$$$ It's very hard to balance $ vs speed. I like throwing my setups together (with reserach yes of course) and seeing what they can do! who cares if it makes the most power or the most torque. E.t. is E.t. and mph is mph.

i want to build a DD that i can drive to the track once in a great while and enjoy racing my own numbers

but more so than the track i want to speed around evo's and sti's and other imports for fun, not at illegal drags but from stop light to stop light
i want it to feel wild when i want to drive wild

and i want my car to feel like it has more power than i need, and i drive my car hard and want it to be able to handle the abuse i throw at it without wearing down,

i want to be able to have good acceleration when i need it and i want to feel like i have the power to downshift on the freeway and not feel like i have crap power

and i want it to run well, to be dependable even with my daily abuse, and my car, since in my ownership has never seen 7rpm,

[superbean]

Originally Posted by stfudvs i want to build a DD that i can drive to the track once in a while and enjoy racing my own numbers but more so than the track i want to speed arround evo's and sti's and other imports for fun, not at illegal drags but from stop light to stop light and i want my car to feel like it has more power than i need, and i drive my car hard and want it to be able to handle the abuse i throw at it without wearing down, i want to be able to have good acceleration when i need it and i want to feel like i have the power to downshift on the freeway and not feel like i have crap power and i want it to run well, to be dependable even with my daily abuse

Well luckily many many people run a tride and true twisted wedge setup and it will make the power you want. Keep this thread updated !