[ryans88gt]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 With a chip, yes. I personally don't use a wideband for anything other than monitoring the a/f ratio. Quite honestly I rarely use a wideband on anything. I tune for the best acceleration, not for specific air/fuel ratios or peak horspower like some people are stuck on. I'll baseline on a dyno because curiousity gets the best of me but I rarely tune anything on a dyno unless I see an issue that needs to be addressed. I do all my tuning at the dragstrip.

This is why a lot of people run their best times just before the motor pops.
At least on forced induction cars, the cars will produce more power and torque at 12.5:1-13:1, but cylinder temps will get so high that you will melt pistons, plugs and everything in between. That is why most FI guys waste their time making sure A/Fs stay in the safe zone. With that said, a wideband is only as good as the person comparing the numbers to the spark plugs. A number is just a number.

For the other people, runner velocity, runner length, runner cross section, and runner volume all come into play in optimizing torque vs rpm range. There is a lot of complex calculus based math and years of engine design and tuning to back that up. Simply cutting the runner length in half without the corresponding changes in runner cross section and desired rpm range is a sure fire fail.
Shorter wider runners are optimized for higher rpm where cylinder filling has to occur at very high speed. Longer narrower runners are more efficient at low speed cylinder filling do to the ram effect of the velocity of the air in the runner. The most efficient intake runner is always the longest runner that does not inhibit air flow at the highest desired rpm.

[stfudvs]

The most efficient intake runner is always the longest runner that does not inhibit air flow at the highest desired rpm.

make some recomendations

[flyin ryan]

Originally Posted by ryans88gt This is why a lot of people run their best times just before the motor pops. At least on forced induction cars, the cars will produce more power and torque at 12.5:1-13:1, but cylinder temps will get so high that you will melt pistons, plugs and everything in between. That is why most FI guys waste their time making sure A/Fs stay in the safe zone. With that said, a wideband is only as good as the person comparing the numbers to the spark plugs. A number is just a number. For the other people, runner velocity, runner length, runner cross section, and runner volume all come into play in optimizing torque vs rpm range. There is a lot of complex calculus based math and years of engine design and tuning to back that up. Simply cutting the runner length in half without the corresponding changes in runner cross section and desired rpm range is a sure fire fail. Shorter wider runners are optimized for higher rpm where cylinder filling has to occur at very high speed. Longer narrower runners are more efficient at low speed cylinder filling do to the ram effect of the velocity of the air in the runner. The most efficient intake runner is always the longest runner that does not inhibit air flow at the highest desired rpm.

thank you

[JBIGBOOTSY]

*cricket noises*

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by ryans88gt This is why a lot of people run their best times just before the motor pops. At least on forced induction cars, the cars will produce more power and torque at 12.5:1-13:1, but cylinder temps will get so high that you will melt pistons, plugs and everything in between. That is why most FI guys waste their time making sure A/Fs stay in the safe zone. With that said, a wideband is only as good as the person comparing the numbers to the spark plugs. A number is just a number. For the other people, runner velocity, runner length, runner cross section, and runner volume all come into play in optimizing torque vs rpm range. There is a lot of complex calculus based math and years of engine design and tuning to back that up. Simply cutting the runner length in half without the corresponding changes in runner cross section and desired rpm range is a sure fire fail. Shorter wider runners are optimized for higher rpm where cylinder filling has to occur at very high speed. Longer narrower runners are more efficient at low speed cylinder filling do to the ram effect of the velocity of the air in the runner. The most efficient intake runner is always the longest runner that does not inhibit air flow at the highest desired rpm.

I've never melted anything down. I've always ran faster with a fatter a/f ratio than what internet experts say is optimal. I could give a shit about peak horsepower numbers. I do my tuning at the track. If the car goes faster, the tune went in the right direction. If the car slows down, the tune took a wrong turn.

I think I broke the rules with short runner intakes too. I've used them sucessfully without having to turn a million rpm. I must be on to something...

[flyin ryan]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 I think I broke the rules with short runner intakes too. I've used them sucessfully without having to turn a million rpm. I must be on to something...

You see I took a venture to the dark side and owned two buick grand nationals, a gmc typhoon and currently own a gmc syclone. Using that method you mentioned above would have cost me motor after motor no matter how good of forged parts I used. I've seen it happen tons of time. Because of that I've always tuned my turbo gm's on the street watching afr's all the while.

These cars can take a little more detonation then those gm's I've owned but I'd still be pretty leary of that method but we both know you know your shit so rock on

[baine21225]

grand national ftw

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by flyin ryan You see I took a venture to the dark side and owned two buick grand nationals, a gmc typhoon and currently own a gmc syclone. Using that method you mentioned above would have cost me motor after motor no matter how good of forged parts I used. I've seen it happen tons of time. Because of that I've always tuned my turbo gm's on the street watching afr's all the while. These cars can take a little more detonation then those gm's I've owned but I'd still be pretty leary of that method but we both know you know your shit so rock on

If you can read a spark plug, you don't need any a/f gauge. Like I said, I've never melted anything down whether it was naturally aspirated, nitrous or boosted. There is no danger tuning the way I do. No danger at all. What do you think they did before widebands were so mainstream? The engines are still the same. A/F gauges are for people that can't read plugs and would rather rely on something electrical that can fail or be inaccurate. The spark plugs will never lie to you.

[baine21225]

.....some of us can't read plugs

[JBIGBOOTSY]

Plug reading is awsome but it dosent help when you are reading them thru the new holes you just put in your pistons.




J/k

[flyin ryan]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 If you can read a spark plug, you don't need any a/f gauge. Like I said, I've never melted anything down whether it was naturally aspirated, nitrous or boosted. There is no danger tuning the way I do. No danger at all. What do you think they did before widebands were so mainstream? The engines are still the same. A/F gauges are for people that can't read plugs and would rather rely on something electrical that can fail or be inaccurate. The spark plugs will never lie to you.

True and that method has worked for soo many for so long but what about when you have a setup that's on the edge or doesn't have a decent built bottom end in it. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion. Id' rather dial the car in before running the shit out of it opposed to taking a car untuned and runing it hard pass after pass until you find the sweet spot you know what I mean. Im like that prob because of my years with turbo gm cars.. the factory rods and pistions in the syclone and typhoons are complete shit. A little detonation with them and good by motor. Even with built motor with eagle rods and je pistions detonation kills em quick so it's pretty important to have a wideband and datalog regularly especially with the weather changes.

Plus not everyone has access to a track to make passes, pull over and yank plugs and repeat.

[baine21225]

anyone wanna do a plug reading seminar?

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by flyin ryan True and that method has worked for soo many for so long but what about when you have a setup that's on the edge or doesn't have a decent built bottom end in it. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion. Id' rather dial the car in before running the shit out of it opposed to taking a car untuned and runing it hard pass after pass until you find the sweet spot you know what I mean. Im like that prob because of my years with turbo gm cars.. the factory rods and pistions in the syclone and typhoons are complete shit. A little detonation with them and good by motor. Even with built motor with eagle rods and je pistions detonation kills em quick so it's pretty important to have a wideband and datalog regularly especially with the weather changes. Plus not everyone has access to a track to make passes, pull over and yank plugs and repeat.

If you "run the shit out of the car" before you tune it, that's your problem. Nobody makes full WOT passes with an untuned car.....unless they're stupid.

I don't think you need to tell me what is important and what is not with racing. I have a little bit of experience and I think my combinations speak for themselves....

[93mustank]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 If you "run the shit out of the car" before you tune it, that's your problem. Nobody makes full WOT passes with an untuned car.....unless they're stupid. I don't think you need to tell me what is important and what is not with racing. I have a little bit of experience and I think my combinations speak for themselves....

Yet to see any of Flyin Ryan's 1/4 times.....................

[ryans88gt]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 If you can read a spark plug, you don't need any a/f gauge. Like I said, I've never melted anything down whether it was naturally aspirated, nitrous or boosted. There is no danger tuning the way I do. No danger at all. What do you think they did before widebands were so mainstream? The engines are still the same. A/F gauges are for people that can't read plugs and would rather rely on something electrical that can fail or be inaccurate. The spark plugs will never lie to you.

You said you tune for max accel and now you tune based on plugs? which is it? I know you have lots of experience with NA cars darrell, but FI cars will not tolerate tuning for max accel. As I said, max torque and power will be made in the range where heat is the highest, which will result in a melt down sooner or later, no matter how much you spent on those pistons. With a NA car, it is a lot tougher getting cylinder temps hot enough to melt pistons. Owning a cobra putting down 23 PSI and over 600 hp through a little 4.6, A/F is a very real concern. Ignore it and you will find 8 of these in your motor

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by ryans88gt You said you tune for max accel and now you tune based on plugs? which is it? I know you have lots of experience with NA cars darrell, but FI cars will not tolerate tuning for max accel. As I said, max torque and power will be made in the range where heat is the highest, which will result in a melt down sooner or later, no matter how much you spent on those pistons. With a NA car, it is a lot tougher getting cylinder temps hot enough to melt pistons. Owning a cobra putting down 23 PSI and over 600 hp through a little 4.6, A/F is a very real concern. Ignore it and you will find 8 of these in your motor

Yep, run the car softly until the plugs look good. Usually make a 300 foot pass and shut it down and then keep working up to a full pass. Then I fatten the mixture from there until the car loses mph. Pretty simple and easy method.

For the record, I'm no stranger to boosted or nitrous cars. I don't know where you got that from but I have a bit of experience with power adders.

My last daily driver made 562hp to the tires with a 302..... No a/f gauge.

[flattusmaximus78]

The plug thing seems like a, oops to late method if your not smart about it. Well good thing widebands are attainable these days. Pulling a plug even with a wideband is still important though.

With my horrid valve spring problems, for some reason my plugs turned african black after I drove it again for the first time. But theres nothing on the wide band but normal readings.


My wide band is bunged into the left side of the hpipe before the cross over, so its more on one bank. So far it reads accuratly but it still leaves me a little worried

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by flattusmaximus78 The plug thing seems like a, oops to late method if your not smart about it. Well good thing widebands are attainable these days. Pulling a plug even with a wideband is still important though. With my horrid valve spring problems, for some reason my plugs turned african black after I drove it again for the first time. But theres nothing on the wide band but normal readings. My wide band is bunged into the left side of the hpipe before the cross over, so its more on one bank. So far it reads accuratly but it still leaves me a little worried

A wide band will never tell you information about a specific cylinder. It will just tell you what the general a/f ratio is. If you have one cylinder that is lean and the rest are a little rich, you will never know until the engine melts down. You will never have that problem pulling plugs if you know how to read them.

Shouldn't be an issue on the street because who drives around wide open throttle on the street long enough to wreck anything????

[flattusmaximus78]

Originally Posted by 1slo5.0 A wide band will never tell you information about a specific cylinder. It will just tell you what the general a/f ratio is. If you have one cylinder that is lean and the rest are a little rich, you will never know until the engine melts down. You will never have that problem pulling plugs if you know how to read them. Shouldn't be an issue on the street because who drives around wide open throttle on the street long enough to wreck anything????

That was my point.

[baine21225]

so can someone please explain to me how to read plugs?