Need some help with my Build please

hayabusa2003 · January 27th, 2011, 03:14 PM

I've got a 1990 rag top GT that I've yanked the engine out of for rebuild. So far I've got the block stripped down and I'm getting ready to send it off to the machine shop for a 306 build. I've got the machine shop doing the basic build with hypereutectic pistons factory oil pump ect ect. I'm providing a ford E-Cam for this build. The basic cost will be around $700 when they are done. I've got a smog pump eliminator from ford and I'm looking at buying a new pair of AFR 165's with some roller tip rockers. I've got a bigger pump in the tank so I'm wanting to upgrade the MAS and Throttle body as well and install some 24# squirters. The car also has an edelbrock upper and lower intake. The final build will be for cruising and not dragging but I am wanting something that runs tight and that's dependable. I'll be running factory headers with off road H pipe. Can anyone give me a decent ideal of what they think this build might be putting to the ground HP wise? I'll be running the stock AOD with a mild shift kit and the factory 8.8. I'd like anyone's advise on what they think I should build for this since for now I've just got the long block done and have yet to buy the heads or Mas air or squirters. Opinions are welcome and if you have any goodies that are for sale that would work with this build let me know.

fogged306 · January 27th, 2011, 04:06 PM

If you're spending the money, I wouldn't replace the factory forged pistons with hyper pistons. If the shortblock doesn't burn oil I wouldn't spend money on a rebuild either. The extra 4 cubes you'll get from going .030 is not going to net you any power gains. AFR 165 heads are not the greatest for the money. They're good heads, but not that big and for a couple hundred more bucks you can get some 190FAC heads from trickflow that will outperform them. The e-cam is also going to limit your power quite a bit. It's an old single pattern SADI core cam made back in the late 80's or early 90's (I forget) with lazy ramp rates don't take advantage of todays knowledge of roller lifters. There's much better options out there. If you haven't bought the parts yet I would suggest thinking on it and doing some research before spending the money.

hayabusa2003 · January 27th, 2011, 04:16 PM

Thanks for the response. The skinny of it is that I had 140k on it and although it wasn't smoking I felt that doing an almost full tear down would warrant just having the whole thing rebuilt since I had it apart anyway. So for my parts that I have arlready bought are the e-cam, bigger fuel pump, smog eliminator, and the long block being built into a 306. I'm only using the E-Cam because I'm keeping the AOD and needed the vacume for it. I'm also only looking at AFR heads because I was told that they are good heads and notching the pistons with these valves on the 165's wasn't a requirement since my E-Cam only has a 498 lift. I'm up for head suggestions and valve train suggestions as long as they will keep my factory bolt on's and I'm not having to pay a machine shop to radically transform something for me. I'm only wanting to rebuild this for a good running strong car. This thing was pretty much a Sunday driver before I tore it down and I'd like to keep it mild but still have enough balls to drop the hammer when I feel like it.

gothrod87 · January 27th, 2011, 04:49 PM

you should check out the anderson series of cams

YouTube - 1964 falcon prostreet

alot more abng for the buck and still has plenty of vaccum

hayabusa2003 · January 27th, 2011, 05:36 PM

Cam is already bought and I'm kind of dead set in my ways on using the E-cam.I'm up for head or valve train component recommendations if you have some.

fogged306 · January 27th, 2011, 08:07 PM

Depends on your budget. With the e-cam there's really no need to go crazy on valvetrain parts because the cam will flex and/or run out of steam before you get to an RPM range that will need the more expensive parts. Just stay away from proform and make sure your valve springs are up to par. If you're already buying pistons anyway, just get ones that will accept 2.02 valve on whatever heads you go with. Worst case, piston notching is not that hard to do at all. Although I really don't want to recommend anything with that cam because generally when you run a larger head on a smaller cube engine, the cam becomes more critical, and that one isn't going to work for the type of set-up that I like to suggest.

real57vetteguy · January 27th, 2011, 08:49 PM

+1 on the e-cam is way outdated and you couldve got alot more bang for the buck with a better cam! You should never buy a cam before heads! I would see if you could get a refund or recoup some money on that cam, Anderson does have nice cams, you could have one ground etc but the cam needs to be bought last! I'm personally a big fan of big heads little cam, the AFR 165's arent what I would use, although AFR makes a great head, if you do any more mods your going to run out of head! I'd look ata larger head, 185/205 AFR, Trick flow, Vic Jr. and then have a cam ground or talk to anderson, good intake with a large throttle body.

Av8tor · January 28th, 2011, 11:00 AM

Id have to agree with what a bunch of people said. Definately look into putting in some forged pistons if you havent already bought the hypers. And if the engine shop is any good they can help you order ones with appropriate valve reliefs for whatever head/cam combo your running. The cam is definately a pretty tiny cam but it sounds like your gonna use it anyways. Id also consider looking into a higher stall convertor for the trans. Alot of people overlook the torque convertor and it will make a bit difference.

93hatch · January 28th, 2011, 11:03 AM

that was the exact combo in my car when I bought it, 301whp 310wtq except it was through a 5 speed and had an elec fan, but for fucks sake ditch the e cam, read up on it doesnt work with the stock stall

69fastback · January 28th, 2011, 11:16 AM

You can run TW heads, with 2.02/1.60 valves and not notch the pistons.With that cam, the TW170s would be fine, and they are a much better flowing head, because its size comes from the cross section, and the rotated valves unshroud the intake valve from the cylinder wall. The rotated valves also allow you to run the larger valves on stock pistons, with that small of a cam. Withthat being said, if you're buying new pistons, you can buy ones that will work with larger valves. If you've already bought some, it costs like $50 to have a machine shop notch them. Don't limit your capabilities because of something trivial like that. Some day you may want to upgrade, and then your stuck with a small head that will really limit you. I'd go with the TWs and solve all that....

StangBanger302 · January 28th, 2011, 01:56 PM

I can only lol at the fact that you're rebuilding your motor with hyper pistons and an e cam. Use a custom cam or a comp/Anderson cam with some TFS 170 twisted wedge heads. Ford motorsports roller rockers and some new pushrods for the new head/cam combo.

hayabusa2003 · January 28th, 2011, 02:29 PM

Ok so I just bought a pair of twisted wedge heads for this setup since everyone seems to be taking a dump on my AFR 165's. I plan on replacing the factory stall with a 2800 and a shift kit so I've got that part covered. I've already upgraded radiator and fan to electric some time back along with a 3G alt and under drive pulleys. Once again I only chose the e-cam because I need the vacume and a steady idle with my AOD setup but it seems like everyone is taking a dump on my e-cam also lol. I only chose the e-cam because this will be a weekend cruiser and I wanted a decent lope but also wanted street ability. So for my top end do with this setup do I really need to ramp up to my 24# injectors and bigger MAS and bigger throttle body or could I save some coin and keep the stock 19# and keep the factory tune? What pistons should go into this block if everyone is telling me not to go back with the factory hyperuatic ones?

93hatch · January 28th, 2011, 02:43 PM

e cam drivability sucks dude, my car would stall if you were idling and turned the AC on, crapped out before 6k, just wasnt much fun. And only year the pistons were hyperautic was 93+ but ignore them. Forged is stronger but are you gona be destroying pistons? Doubt it

hayabusa2003 · January 28th, 2011, 02:49 PM

I was told that the 1990 models came with hypertonic pistons and that was a special year for them. Are you saying that they are cast? I'd like to know a bit about your idle problems because I was told that the E-Cam was recommended for AOD cars and dive-ability. Did you have to have a tune after the e-cam?

StangBanger302 · January 28th, 2011, 02:59 PM

Whatt? E cam...driveability??? My b cam sucks with that dude. Got no power, if not less than stock, below 3,000. Get a comp cam or an anderson. They're much better. And you should want broad power and driveability over lope.

93hatch · January 28th, 2011, 03:00 PM

na dude, forged, 93+ is hyper. Yes my car was tuned, still idled like ass, which is why retards like it. And read some more dude, its wrong for an auto unless you have a stall

Put it this way, my 347 with custom cam for shifts at 6500 idles better than the e cam and the car ran better untuned

Get a better cam

hayabusa2003 · January 28th, 2011, 03:34 PM

what about Mass air, throttle body and bigger squirters? Will need to upgrade these as well or is my combo so mild that it won't warrant this kind of upgrade?

93hatch · January 28th, 2011, 03:39 PM

na youll need them all. Tb to match the inlet size of your intake, maf bigger than tb, and some 24s with a fuel pump

69fastback · January 28th, 2011, 03:57 PM

There are tons of cams that will make plenty of vacuum to run an AOD.

hayabusa2003 · January 28th, 2011, 04:24 PM

so my upper plenum will accept 70mm. Do you recommend that I buy a 70mm throttle body/egr plate? How big do I go for mass air? I was planning on going with 24# injectors and an adjustable regulator as well. Why is everyone telling me that the E-Cam won't idle and work with this setup. From what I've seen online and other peoples setups an E-Cam is recommended by Ford to run with the AOD.

Ford Racing #397-M-6250-E303
Duration: 220°/220° @ .050''
Lift: .498''/.498''
Trans: 5-Speed/Automatic, Emissions Legal (E.O.#D-225-16) with 5-Speed
Notes: Good Idle, Excellent Low- and Mid Range Torque, Great for Superchargers.

January 27th, 2011, 03:14 PM	#1
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	Need some help with my Build please I've got a 1990 rag top GT that I've yanked the engine out of for rebuild. So far I've got the block stripped down and I'm getting ready to send it off to the machine shop for a 306 build. I've got the machine shop doing the basic build with hypereutectic pistons factory oil pump ect ect. I'm providing a ford E-Cam for this build. The basic cost will be around $700 when they are done. I've got a smog pump eliminator from ford and I'm looking at buying a new pair of AFR 165's with some roller tip rockers. I've got a bigger pump in the tank so I'm wanting to upgrade the MAS and Throttle body as well and install some 24# squirters. The car also has an edelbrock upper and lower intake. The final build will be for cruising and not dragging but I am wanting something that runs tight and that's dependable. I'll be running factory headers with off road H pipe. Can anyone give me a decent ideal of what they think this build might be putting to the ground HP wise? I'll be running the stock AOD with a mild shift kit and the factory 8.8. I'd like anyone's advise on what they think I should build for this since for now I've just got the long block done and have yet to buy the heads or Mas air or squirters. Opinions are welcome and if you have any goodies that are for sale that would work with this build let me know.

January 27th, 2011, 08:49 PM	#7
real57vetteguy Enthusiast 1987 347 vortech V-2 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: North Carolina Posts: 700 iTrader: 0 reviews	+1 on the e-cam is way outdated and you couldve got alot more bang for the buck with a better cam! You should never buy a cam before heads! I would see if you could get a refund or recoup some money on that cam, Anderson does have nice cams, you could have one ground etc but the cam needs to be bought last! I'm personally a big fan of big heads little cam, the AFR 165's arent what I would use, although AFR makes a great head, if you do any more mods your going to run out of head! I'd look ata larger head, 185/205 AFR, Trick flow, Vic Jr. and then have a cam ground or talk to anderson, good intake with a large throttle body. __________________ And when you lose control you reap the harvest you have sown!

January 28th, 2011, 11:03 AM	#9
93hatch Banned 1992 Lx 11.39@119.24 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Az Posts: 11,644 iTrader: 0 reviews	that was the exact combo in my car when I bought it, 301whp 310wtq except it was through a 5 speed and had an elec fan, but for fucks sake ditch the e cam, read up on it doesnt work with the stock stall __________________ [QUOTE=93mustank;2577445]We speed tested my right arm for quickness in shifts... So he could design the cam for proper shift recovery.[/QUOTE]

January 28th, 2011, 11:16 AM	#10
69fastback Premium Member 1969 Mustang Mach 1 6.824@101.61 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Oklahoma jackass, get to driving Posts: 5,565 iTrader: 0 reviews	You can run TW heads, with 2.02/1.60 valves and not notch the pistons.With that cam, the TW170s would be fine, and they are a much better flowing head, because its size comes from the cross section, and the rotated valves unshroud the intake valve from the cylinder wall. The rotated valves also allow you to run the larger valves on stock pistons, with that small of a cam. Withthat being said, if you're buying new pistons, you can buy ones that will work with larger valves. If you've already bought some, it costs like $50 to have a machine shop notch them. Don't limit your capabilities because of something trivial like that. Some day you may want to upgrade, and then your stuck with a small head that will really limit you. I'd go with the TWs and solve all that.... __________________ ./___ _ ____ ___ \. ( ]]] _ _ O _ _ [[[ ) \_ o _ _____ _ o _/ \|___\| ......... \|___\| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyYU3...e_gdata_player

January 28th, 2011, 01:56 PM	#11
StangBanger302 Hardcore Enthusiast 1992 Mustang LX 13.0 @ 105 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New York Posts: 2,230 iTrader: 0 reviews	I can only lol at the fact that you're rebuilding your motor with hyper pistons and an e cam. Use a custom cam or a comp/Anderson cam with some TFS 170 twisted wedge heads. Ford motorsports roller rockers and some new pushrods for the new head/cam combo. __________________ As I lay rubber down the street I pray for traction I can keep But if I spin, and begin to slide Please dear God, protect my ride

January 27th, 2011, 04:06 PM	#2
fogged306 MM Fanatic 89 GT Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NY Posts: 4,875 iTrader: 2 reviews	If you're spending the money, I wouldn't replace the factory forged pistons with hyper pistons. If the shortblock doesn't burn oil I wouldn't spend money on a rebuild either. The extra 4 cubes you'll get from going .030 is not going to net you any power gains. AFR 165 heads are not the greatest for the money. They're good heads, but not that big and for a couple hundred more bucks you can get some 190FAC heads from trickflow that will outperform them. The e-cam is also going to limit your power quite a bit. It's an old single pattern SADI core cam made back in the late 80's or early 90's (I forget) with lazy ramp rates don't take advantage of todays knowledge of roller lifters. There's much better options out there. If you haven't bought the parts yet I would suggest thinking on it and doing some research before spending the money.

January 27th, 2011, 04:16 PM	#3
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	Thanks for the response. The skinny of it is that I had 140k on it and although it wasn't smoking I felt that doing an almost full tear down would warrant just having the whole thing rebuilt since I had it apart anyway. So for my parts that I have arlready bought are the e-cam, bigger fuel pump, smog eliminator, and the long block being built into a 306. I'm only using the E-Cam because I'm keeping the AOD and needed the vacume for it. I'm also only looking at AFR heads because I was told that they are good heads and notching the pistons with these valves on the 165's wasn't a requirement since my E-Cam only has a 498 lift. I'm up for head suggestions and valve train suggestions as long as they will keep my factory bolt on's and I'm not having to pay a machine shop to radically transform something for me. I'm only wanting to rebuild this for a good running strong car. This thing was pretty much a Sunday driver before I tore it down and I'd like to keep it mild but still have enough balls to drop the hammer when I feel like it. Last edited by hayabusa2003; January 27th, 2011 at 04:23 PM.

January 27th, 2011, 05:36 PM	#5
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	Cam is already bought and I'm kind of dead set in my ways on using the E-cam.I'm up for head or valve train component recommendations if you have some.

January 27th, 2011, 08:07 PM	#6
fogged306 MM Fanatic 89 GT Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NY Posts: 4,875 iTrader: 2 reviews	Depends on your budget. With the e-cam there's really no need to go crazy on valvetrain parts because the cam will flex and/or run out of steam before you get to an RPM range that will need the more expensive parts. Just stay away from proform and make sure your valve springs are up to par. If you're already buying pistons anyway, just get ones that will accept 2.02 valve on whatever heads you go with. Worst case, piston notching is not that hard to do at all. Although I really don't want to recommend anything with that cam because generally when you run a larger head on a smaller cube engine, the cam becomes more critical, and that one isn't going to work for the type of set-up that I like to suggest.

January 28th, 2011, 11:00 AM	#8
Av8tor Regular Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 183 iTrader: 0 reviews	Id have to agree with what a bunch of people said. Definately look into putting in some forged pistons if you havent already bought the hypers. And if the engine shop is any good they can help you order ones with appropriate valve reliefs for whatever head/cam combo your running. The cam is definately a pretty tiny cam but it sounds like your gonna use it anyways. Id also consider looking into a higher stall convertor for the trans. Alot of people overlook the torque convertor and it will make a bit difference.

January 28th, 2011, 02:29 PM	#12
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	Ok so I just bought a pair of twisted wedge heads for this setup since everyone seems to be taking a dump on my AFR 165's. I plan on replacing the factory stall with a 2800 and a shift kit so I've got that part covered. I've already upgraded radiator and fan to electric some time back along with a 3G alt and under drive pulleys. Once again I only chose the e-cam because I need the vacume and a steady idle with my AOD setup but it seems like everyone is taking a dump on my e-cam also lol. I only chose the e-cam because this will be a weekend cruiser and I wanted a decent lope but also wanted street ability. So for my top end do with this setup do I really need to ramp up to my 24# injectors and bigger MAS and bigger throttle body or could I save some coin and keep the stock 19# and keep the factory tune? What pistons should go into this block if everyone is telling me not to go back with the factory hyperuatic ones?

January 28th, 2011, 02:43 PM	#13
93hatch Banned 1992 Lx 11.39@119.24 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Az Posts: 11,644 iTrader: 0 reviews	e cam drivability sucks dude, my car would stall if you were idling and turned the AC on, crapped out before 6k, just wasnt much fun. And only year the pistons were hyperautic was 93+ but ignore them. Forged is stronger but are you gona be destroying pistons? Doubt it __________________ [QUOTE=93mustank;2577445]We speed tested my right arm for quickness in shifts... So he could design the cam for proper shift recovery.[/QUOTE]

January 28th, 2011, 02:49 PM	#14
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	I was told that the 1990 models came with hypertonic pistons and that was a special year for them. Are you saying that they are cast? I'd like to know a bit about your idle problems because I was told that the E-Cam was recommended for AOD cars and dive-ability. Did you have to have a tune after the e-cam?

January 28th, 2011, 02:59 PM	#15
StangBanger302 Hardcore Enthusiast 1992 Mustang LX 13.0 @ 105 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New York Posts: 2,230 iTrader: 0 reviews	Whatt? E cam...driveability??? My b cam sucks with that dude. Got no power, if not less than stock, below 3,000. Get a comp cam or an anderson. They're much better. And you should want broad power and driveability over lope. __________________ As I lay rubber down the street I pray for traction I can keep But if I spin, and begin to slide Please dear God, protect my ride

January 28th, 2011, 03:00 PM	#16
93hatch Banned 1992 Lx 11.39@119.24 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Az Posts: 11,644 iTrader: 0 reviews	na dude, forged, 93+ is hyper. Yes my car was tuned, still idled like ass, which is why retards like it. And read some more dude, its wrong for an auto unless you have a stall Put it this way, my 347 with custom cam for shifts at 6500 idles better than the e cam and the car ran better untuned Get a better cam __________________ [QUOTE=93mustank;2577445]We speed tested my right arm for quickness in shifts... So he could design the cam for proper shift recovery.[/QUOTE]

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January 28th, 2011, 03:34 PM	#17
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	what about Mass air, throttle body and bigger squirters? Will need to upgrade these as well or is my combo so mild that it won't warrant this kind of upgrade?

January 28th, 2011, 03:39 PM	#18
93hatch Banned 1992 Lx 11.39@119.24 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Az Posts: 11,644 iTrader: 0 reviews	na youll need them all. Tb to match the inlet size of your intake, maf bigger than tb, and some 24s with a fuel pump __________________ [QUOTE=93mustank;2577445]We speed tested my right arm for quickness in shifts... So he could design the cam for proper shift recovery.[/QUOTE]

January 28th, 2011, 03:57 PM	#19
69fastback Premium Member 1969 Mustang Mach 1 6.824@101.61 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Oklahoma jackass, get to driving Posts: 5,565 iTrader: 0 reviews	There are tons of cams that will make plenty of vacuum to run an AOD. __________________ ./___ _ ____ ___ \. ( ]]] _ _ O _ _ [[[ ) \_ o _ _____ _ o _/ \|___\| ......... \|___\| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyYU3...e_gdata_player

January 28th, 2011, 04:24 PM	#20
hayabusa2003 Newbie 1965,1990, 2008, GT's Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wichita Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 reviews	so my upper plenum will accept 70mm. Do you recommend that I buy a 70mm throttle body/egr plate? How big do I go for mass air? I was planning on going with 24# injectors and an adjustable regulator as well. Why is everyone telling me that the E-Cam won't idle and work with this setup. From what I've seen online and other peoples setups an E-Cam is recommended by Ford to run with the AOD. Ford Racing #397-M-6250-E303 Duration: 220°/220° @ .050'' Lift: .498''/.498'' Trans: 5-Speed/Automatic, Emissions Legal (E.O.#D-225-16) with 5-Speed Notes: Good Idle, Excellent Low- and Mid Range Torque, Great for Superchargers.

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