[Hollywood]

Has anyone dived further into the investigation on some of the outrageous prices for the foxes?

I went back and looked at the blue book value after not having checked it in several years.

A fully loaded 88 GT runs no more than $2300... !

Either they are assholes (lol) or as I've mentioned before, someone along the way got a hair up their butt and decided foxes were worth more than they're supposed to be.


Am I the only one confused by the gaps in these two price ranges?

[mdvaldosta]

I've never, and I mean never, been able to find a fox body in descent shape for less than $4k, regardless of book. It seems KBB, NADA, Blackbook etc. all have dropped the ball on this one.

[AtlanticBlue99]

supply/demand/availability/passion come into play here.

[Hollywood]

The production numbers should speak volumes. To me the fox-body is a cult-car.

I think my first experience with finding out how common these cars was, came back a few years ago. I was helping my friend who worked at "Car Toys" deliver vehicles to dealer lots. A gentlemen had worked done on his 00 GT. When we were leaving his manager sent someone employed at the store to drive with me for legal reasons. As we're sitting at the stop light, he rubs and pats the dash down, like it was a pet dog and completes the entertaining moment with this line, "I haven't been in a mustang since high school...man chicks were good back in highschool."

Then it hit me, those foxes(not the girls) must have been EVERYWHERE.

These are the Ford equivilant to the other domestic cars(Camaro, Firebird) that teenagers ran into the ground during the 80s.

Which might explain why to find one in decent condition is pleasant. "Decent" unfortunatly seems to be left to matter of opinion, especially since Dolsta pointed out that blue books have dropped the ball.

I'm wondering if dealerships are gonna stop even touching them now.

Unless it was a saleen, cobra R or an 88 with mint condition T-Tops, I don't understand the big deal.

Anyhow this thread should probably be moved unless we start putting some technical questions in it.

And I just forgot what I was going to ask.,

[173speed]

i remember when i was in high school and seen 5.0's and saying to myself i want one of those.. so when i finally got of age ..where i could afford one it was pretty much a done deal...since then i have owned 6 different foxes...to me its one of the bests mustangs ever made...its becoming increasingly hard to find a fox body mustang in descent shape..therefore value increases...

[Hollywood]

Aye but people are more unrealistic these days.

To a teenager(especially) or someone who just has to have their dream car, they may want to settle with the dream car that needs a paint job or doesn't already come with a tricked out motor.

What one considers 'good condition' is irrelevant. We have the blue books for that (Whether they are out of the loop or not, their definition of "condition" is to be universal).


I bet you, you will have more trouble finding a 1993 New Yorker in similar 'condition' to these 5.0s and yet the inflation or S&D rate will not be near as nasty.


The demand for foxes is not high. The demand for foxes that are modified but not broken is.

I guess there-in lies the problem. People are too lazy to put effort into their supposed dream car.

Pretty good dream. Someone else builds it, you drive it.

Hooray for the lazy! (:points a finger at all the gear heads who put a shifter kit on an AOD rather then switching back to standard

[AtlanticBlue99]

Well Foxes are nice cars with great potential for the pushrod motor. The aftermarket is there to cheaply build a fast car be it street or strip. I agree that a lot of people now-a-days want to buy someone else project and either drive it or finish it, but that is economical. Someone who puts 10+ grand in a car modifying it will never get that money back out. So a consumer who is looking for a car with 10+ grand in modifications would rather buy someone else's project and save money as opposed to build their own. This isn't necessarily laziness as much as it is economics.

Originally Posted by Hollywood (:points a finger at all the gear heads who put a shifter kit on an AOD rather then switching back to standard

You can't beat the consistency of a firmly tuned auto tranny with a high torque converter.

[Hollywood]

How is buying a car already built upon 'economical?'

It's been modified..that's a red flag. It's been driven after being modified...another red flag.
Each pass down the track or at the street light is the equivilant of thousands of miles being put on the motor and body.

You don't know how much this person paid for parts and labor. For all you know he is the mechanic and his parts were used or free. So you're paying for his reimbursement that doesn't even exist in the first place.

Gas mileage, fuel/air mix, compression, tires, air conditioning compression...

Gutted interiors..


Far from economical, even if you 'save' (key word here) a certain difference in money between how much is invested in the car, and how much you purchase it for.

So let's do some simple math.

*For generic purposes all aftermarket products are worth 1/3 of their original value.
*Some of these include labor, some do not.

Clean 88 GT with 100k miles = $2250.
Paint job 1200 1/3 = 400
Exhaust 400 1/3 = 135
Headers 300 1/3 = 100
Tires 400 1/3 = 135
Shiftkits 300 1/3 = 100

Total= $4850 1/3 = 3120 (including original car value)

If this 'foxes are RARE' bandwagon didn't exist, then your view is correct. You would gain more (at least in the beginning, till it breaks) buying from someone who has already done the work.

Since they are overpriced, you aren't saving. $5000 is not $3000. $8000 is not $5000 and as the modifications continue, the gap between the car's real value and the seller's price increase dramatically.

And lastly remember we are talking about street cars, not professionally race modified, rare model or showroom condition vehicles.

They are usually well used, well worn cars which just happen to have new paint jobs and tires.


If these models were harder to work on, it might make people think twice about purchasing them.

God forbid someone has to change the plugs on a Saab. :shudder:

[1slo5.0]

Demand is the key here. The cars are demanded and finding a good fox body is hard to do. They are heavily demanded which is why the consumer is willing to pay a premium price.

As far as a manual being faster, quicker, better or anything else you want to call it......that is flawed. Unless its a Lenco or Liberty a manual is garbage. I'll put a good automatic transmission against a manual any day of the week. Nobody can shift and manual anywhere near as fast as an automatic can be shifted. A full race manual such as a Lenco or Liberty is a different story and doesn't fit this comparison anyway because I'm assuming we are talking street cars here.

Now lets go to the economical stand point of buying someone elses junk. Yes you can make a killing and save a ton of money buying something that someone has lost interest in. With these cars it is very common for someone to spend a ton of money and either lose interest in the project or get so far in debt that they need to sell the car. I've seen it time and time again. Racing is an addiction only cured by poverty. I bought a Mustang that ran 9.90s on nitrous for $8300 with a trailer. That is a steal. I sold a Mustang a couple years back for $16,000. That was a steal for the guy that bought it. It doesn't matter who does the work on the car. If you know what you are looking at you can decide for yourself if the car is a good deal. If you don't know what your looking at you shouldn't be looking at the car in the first place. It also doesn't matter if the guy didn't pay for the parts or labor in the car. That has nothing to do with the value at all. If a guy can make an extra buck, good for him. I know I'm getting good parts no matter what he paid for them.

[Hollywood]

Actually, the key is ignorance.

We agree that circumstance has caused the value of the cars to rise.

There's a difference betwen unmolested and modificed car prices.

People's ignorance leads them to believe, that the value of the unmolested is on the same price grade as the modified, because there is a demand for the modified fox.

This cannot be the proper case as there's nothing special about an unmolested fox. Unless you use the arguement that it's 'all original.' Which I find hard to hold weight since it's fifteen years old, not forty. And if 'all original' is the demand, then the value of pre-modified foxes should decline. You can't have both in the market realistically, and that's what private sellers are trying to do. They are pitting their buyers against the circumstances to make an extra buck.

Now that, is simple economics; unfortunate but true.


I wonder if this will ever happen with F-bodies...

[1slo5.0]

Actually dealers do it too. Its demand and that's that. People are willing to pay the money. If you had a piece of gold that appraised at $1000 but you seen your neighbor sell the same piece of gold for $2000 would you advertise yours for $1000? Probably not, you would probably do something like $2000 or best offer. Ignorance has nothing to do with it. Sellers don't call each other across the country to work together on jacking prices up. If an unmolested fox body is worth $8000 to me, that is my opinion and my business. Many people are willing to pay the price for the cars because like I said before clean fox bodies are becoming hard to find. I guess I don't know what you mean by "You can't have both in the market realistically". I don't understand that at all. We've sold both modified and stock Mustangs and there is a very strong market for both.

[AtlanticBlue99]

The buyer pays what the product is worth to them regardless of any appraisal. If a buyer finds it better suited to their needs to buy someone else's project and the buyer feels he is getting a good deal, then the buyer is getting a good deal. The demand for a product by a person/group guides the market value.

[1slo5.0]

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 The buyer pays what the product is worth to them regardless of any appraisal. If a buyer finds it better suited to their needs to buy someone else's project and the buyer feels he is getting a good deal, then the buyer is getting a good deal. The demand for a product by a person/group guides the market value.

Exactly!

[Hollywood]

If my neighbor was able to swing $2000 for something that is only worth $1000, good for him.
He was blessed with a more lucrative result. I will sell it appropriatley. (Besides a piece of gold, is
not 'modified' )

There is no outstanding market for regular unmolested foxes. There is however for foxes that were unmolested/garaged and then modified; also for extreme unmolested foxes known as 'show-room.'

If a random buyer is particularly interested in a running, unmolested fox, then they must be bracing themselves to find not so good condition cars(as would be the case). They should not be bracing themselve to find a not so nice price tag.

If working on these cars is so simple, than even a project car should suffice, regardless of it's condition.

>>>"The demand for a product by a person/group guides the market value."<<<

It's only supposed to, to a certain extent. This is where the ignorance weighs heavily.

The decision(S) of buyers who do not consider certain things before purchasing a car, or a home, or a condo etc. can have extremely negative and adverse effects on a market(S). (Multiply the average buyersxthe average salesxthe average stupid decision and it becomes exponential)


Your concept of 'it's worth whatever someone feels it's worth to them,' is a bit of a defensive stronghold. It can be broken.

If such is the case why do car dealers even stick a price on their car lots? Why don't they ask the buyer what THEY think the vehicle is worth Would be a bit difficult no? They have to have some benchmark to start with.

How does a private seller have any idea the value of their vehicle? What if they were one of the first to sell a fox, not long after they rolled off the assembly line? They'd go straight to the blue book. That's their benchmark.


Ironically when they aren't satisifed with the blue book quote, that benchmark somehow seems to dissapear under the notion that they have 'dropped the ball.'


I think Mustang fans and enthusiats are getting screwed by people who don't care about foxes or the Mustang community; just another bunch of backyard mechanics turned frontyard salesmen.


Noone answered the question: What's going to happen to the F-bodies?

[1slo5.0]

You are way out in left field, but anyway........

Besides that, $1800 to $3500 is the average price for bone stock fox bodies around here anyway depending on the mileage, condition, year, etc. If a guy has a garage kept car that has extremely low mile with flawless paint and interior it surely will be worth more. I guess if you have a problem with that you shouldn't be looking to buy any of these cars.

As far as F-bodies go, same thing. LS1 cars sell for more than blue book pricing all the time. Why? Because there is an LS1 craze and the cars are demanded.

[Hollywood]

I was referring to fifteen years from now...

I don't feel there will be enough of a cult factor with these models.

[AtlanticBlue99]

I think the Fox Body craze is popular because it symbolized the rebirth of the muscle car era. I wish my car market value would be inflated 3x over book value though.

[Grinster24]

I wont see any of the 4k i just invested into my car but oh well someone who wants a fast car or a mustang entusiast will pay more than others looking for a daily driver