[REBELPONY]

OK I got the car running but its not running right...

first it would not stay started. Then after opening up the throttle position screw all the way, Itll Idle, but its rough as hell and it surges.

It smells like a carb running rich and theres black smoke from the pipes.

I have 2 new O2 sensors hooked up, but they arent in the pipe and I believe this may be the problem.....but when the car was running before the teardown it didnt have any O2 sensors hooked up and ran just fine...

The car didnt have a MAF sensor prior to the swap, and there is no wiring for it in the harnesses. I plan on the upgrade, but not now ($$$)

Also I do not have a smog pump and I have the vaccum ports for it all plugged.

I have the EGR valve plugged in and the vacuum hose is on it.

I tried unhooking things and unplugging things but nothing makes a difference...

The car is running rich, black smoke from the pipes, surging and gets REALLY hot REALLY quick.
I have 2 X 12 inch electric fans and they arent helping much.

Any help here would be appreciated, I need to get this car running.

Should I remove the EGR and put a plate on the intake where it was?

Doesnt the computer need that signal?

There are no loaded questions here and any helpful suggestions are appreciated and welcome.

If you see me doing wrong PLEASE TELL ME!

1988 5.0L HO drivetrain in a 1987 coupe body.
All 1988 wiring and components were swapped in.
No MAF. Flowtech LT headers. Stock build, stock intake tube with a cone filter on the end, smog pump removed, A/C removed, Exhaust ports on back of heads plugged (welded up the original smog tube).

Right now I just want it to run, then I can work on modding it. You got to crawl before you can walk.

[Drick]

It sounds lie it could be a vaccum leak somewere did you unhook any vaccum hoses going to the intake

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DRFDIGGER first it would not stay started. Then after opening up the throttle position screw all the way, Itll Idle, but its rough as hell and it surges. It smells like a carb running rich and theres black smoke from the pipes. I have 2 new O2 sensors hooked up, but they arent in the pipe and I believe this may be the problem.....but when the car was running before the teardown it didnt have any O2 sensors hooked up and ran just fine...

the ECM bases its A/F calculations on readings from the o2 sensors. if the o2 sensors are reading the A/F ratio of the outside air, what do you think they are showing? VERY LEAN! so the ECM is increasing injector pulsewidth to make up for it. this is why you are running rich. either mount the o2 sensors properly in the exhaust or disconnect them entirely. either way you will need to disconnect the battery for about 15 minutes so the ECM can relearn. also might want to back the idle screw down abit before you restart it.

[REBELPONY]

the ECM bases its A/F calculations on readings from the o2 sensors. if the o2 sensors are reading the A/F ratio of the outside air, what do you think they are showing? VERY LEAN! so the ECM is increasing injector pulsewidth to make up for it. this is why you are running rich. either mount the o2 sensors properly in the exhaust or disconnect them entirely. either way you will need to disconnect the battery for about 15 minutes so the ECM can relearn. also might want to back the idle screw down abit before you restart it.[/quote]

I thought so, the headers have O2 sensor mounting nuts, but they arent drilled through so I will have to dern near pull the engine to take them off and drill them, hence why I had the O2 sensors out.

I was wondering how the engine could have run without the O2 sensors hooked up before? I didnt realize the O2 mounting nuts werent drilled untill I had them in....OOF.

OK Im on it thanks and Ill post progress

ME

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by 8t6gt It sounds lie it could be a vaccum leak somewere did you unhook any vaccum hoses going to the intake

I checked all the vacuum ports....when I take one off it runs better... which supports the statements above.

Ill check them over again also.

[ujslost]

when you moved that throttle position screw you also threw the TPS out of whack turn that screw back down and set TPS to .98 volts

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by ujslost when you moved that throttle position screw you also threw the TPS out of whack turn that screw back down and set TPS to .98 volts

Roger. Will do.

OK I hooked up the O2 sensors and put them in the end of the collectors.

No change

I reset the TPS and it wont start now. (flooded)

Ive run the car about a total of 10 minutes, and it used 3/8 of a tank of gas...

I think I got stuck injectors, or a short causing them to be electrically stuck open.


I will pull the Upper Intake and check out the injectors tomorrow night after work.

My nieghbors just called the cops on me ....



To them.

[ujslost]

i doubt you got all the injectors stuck open. you have probly gas fouled your plugs by now and need new ones

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by ujslost i doubt you got all the injectors stuck open. you have probly gas fouled your plugs by now and need new ones

I agree. but one or two is enough to flood it isnt it?

I dont want to replace the plugs until I can fix the problem....

[ujslost]

better take those plugs out and let them dry out some and the cylinders too.

you could have a stuck injector, but i just dont see that happening very much at all. what mass air do you have?

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by ujslost better take those plugs out and let them dry out some and the cylinders too.

Good idea, Ill do that.

Originally Posted by ujslost what mass air do you have?

There is no mass air that I can see... there isnt any wiring for it either...

The engine ran great before I put a new intake gasket set on it and cleaned it up. The old lower intake end seals ("S" gaskets) were in backwards and it leaked oil like a siv...not to mentioned the murdered valve cover gaskets.

the only changes are as follows:

long tube headers (soon to be replaced by shorties(theyre a P.I.T.A. and HOT)
smog pump removal and plugged the vaccum hoses.

Thats it... I replaced all gaskets and injector rings.

OH! I had to replace the fuel lines form about back seat back (rust) and I used rubber 1/4" hose... I dont see how that makes a difference though...

could it be a bad fuel pump relay?

does the intertia switch do anything for regulation?

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DRFDIGGER Originally Posted by ujslost when you moved that throttle position screw you also threw the TPS out of whack turn that screw back down and set TPS to .98 volts Roger. Will do. OK I hooked up the O2 sensors and put them in the end of the collectors. No change I reset the TPS and it wont start now. (flooded) Ive run the car about a total of 10 minutes, and it used 3/8 of a tank of gas... I think I got stuck injectors, or a short causing them to be electrically stuck open. I will pull the Upper Intake and check out the injectors tomorrow night after work. My nieghbors just called the cops on me .... To them.

did you disconnect the battery when you did this? try this instead...disconnect the o2 sensors. disconnect the battery for 15 minutes. reconnect the battery but leave the o2 sensors disconnected. this way the ECM will run off its stock calibration.

also make sure all vacuum hoses are connected or plugged. make sure the egr vacuum is routed through the EGR Vacuum regulator and not just connected straight to the egr from the intake manifold. do this base idle reset procedure: http://www.my5oh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1078

[ujslost]

i dunno how long your rubber hose is gonna hang in there ,especially if you used hose clamps and didnt use AN fittings



also is your timing set right? r the headers glowing?
another thing, you sure you got the right injector plug on the right injectors?

[REBELPONY]

on the rubber hose: yeah I used clamps.....hate it but Im working on a budget and the metal lines were more than I had.....

on the battery disconnect... Yes I disconnected the battery all last night and all day today, and I will try the O2 sensors disconected tomorrow night when I get home.

But something is causing MASS fuel dump into the engine....

I cant tell if it is happening when the pressure is building....the fuel pump shuts off after 2 1/2 seconds and there are no noticeable leaks.....

but as soon as it starts it shuts right back off like one cylinder hits and then it dies.

if I get it to run at all (give it throttle) it blows black smoke, the air burns your eyes....

[TENGRAM]

do you have vacuum attached to the MAP sensor?

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by TENGRAM do you have vacuum attached to the MAP sensor?

good question...



DAMMM!!! OK I did not have vacuum to the Map sensor



(that is the one on the center of the firewall behind the intake, right?)

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by ujslost i dunno how long your rubber hose is gonna hang in there ,especially if you used hose clamps and didnt use AN fittings also is your timing set right? r the headers glowing? another thing, you sure you got the right injector plug on the right injectors?

the timing is set close to 0 degrees, I cant get it to run good enough to set it to 10 deg adv yet...

headers arent glowing but they are HOT and they get that way QUICK

pretty sure I got the right injector plugs on the right ones....but I will check for sure.

As far as the fuel lines...how much and where is a good place to get them? I didnt want to use rubber but I had no choice for now.....


I cant startb the car again tonight because of the neighbors, but I will start it up ASAP in the morning or right after work...

WITH VACCUM HOOKED UP ON THE MAP SENSOR

[TENGRAM]

Originally Posted by DRFDIGGER Originally Posted by TENGRAM do you have vacuum attached to the MAP sensor? good question... DAMMM!!! OK I did not have vacuum to the Map sensor (that is the one on the center of the firewall behind the intake, right?)

yep that's the one. looks just like this:


that's gonna be at least most of your problem.

[REBELPONY]

Originally Posted by TENGRAM yep that's the one. looks just like this: that's gonna be at least most of your problem.

Dude I feel like such an idiot.

Thanks. I guess thats easy to miss (thats what Ill tell myself, anyway)

Ill post progress tomorrow. THANKS AGAIN!

[ujslost]

that was gonna be my next suggestion when he said its a speed density car.