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post #1 of 22 Old October 21st, 2007, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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351 clevor

anyone have info on putin cleveland heads on a windsor thus the clevor name any advantages or disadvantages to this setup ive got a set of aluminum heads for my combo now but am open to the idea of the clevor cause from what ive read so far the cleveland heads flows much more cfm. Thanks for any info
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post #2 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 12:17 AM
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Yeah, I have one in my 88 GT.

I did it to be different and I can tell you from experience, it will not be any cheaper than going aluminum heads. And if you want to get the most out of 351C heads you'll need to see the high side of 7000 rpms.

So...I wouldn't do it if you think it will save money. If you want something different, it is an interesting way to go.
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post #3 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 12:19 AM
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Cleveland heads can flow some air if you do some work to them. It won't be cheap though. CHI makes some pretty kick ass aluminum Cleveland style heads. Something to look into.

My daily driver has 16 cylinders and 4400hp @ 1000 rpm....


***1988 Mustang GT - Stock....almost
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post #4 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell
Cleveland heads can flow some air if you do some work to them. It won't be cheap though. CHI makes some pretty kick ass aluminum Cleveland style heads. Something to look into.
+1 on the CHI heads, John Kasse has made some awesome motors with those.

BTW my heads as cast (with flash and everything) flowed an average of 280 cfm on the intake side (before valve job) and 190 exhaust. They are 1970 4V closed chamber heads.
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post #5 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 09:55 AM
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Re: 351 clevor

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5litercobra
anyone have info on putin cleveland heads on a windsor thus the clevor name any advantages or disadvantages to this setup ive got a set of aluminum heads for my combo now but am open to the idea of the clevor cause from what ive read so far the cleveland heads flows much more cfm. Thanks for any info
cleveland heads flow more than any aluminum heads?

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post #6 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 09:58 AM
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Re: 351 clevor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedstang302
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5litercobra
anyone have info on putin cleveland heads on a windsor thus the clevor name any advantages or disadvantages to this setup ive got a set of aluminum heads for my combo now but am open to the idea of the clevor cause from what ive read so far the cleveland heads flows much more cfm. Thanks for any info
cleveland heads flow more than any aluminum heads?
No. They flow more than some heads but not many. With some work they can flow some good numbers.

My daily driver has 16 cylinders and 4400hp @ 1000 rpm....


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post #7 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:05 AM
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Re: 351 clevor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedstang302
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5litercobra
anyone have info on putin cleveland heads on a windsor thus the clevor name any advantages or disadvantages to this setup ive got a set of aluminum heads for my combo now but am open to the idea of the clevor cause from what ive read so far the cleveland heads flows much more cfm. Thanks for any info
cleveland heads flow more than any aluminum heads?
No. They flow more than some heads but not many. With some work they can flow some good numbers.
yeah with work..but i meant stock!!!

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post #8 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:07 AM
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A standard short side port typically nets 340 cfm on the intake side and 220 cfm on the exhuast side. All out porting has produced some heads with 380+ CFM intake and 250+ CFM exhuast. So yeah, they will outflow many if not most aluminum heads.

BUT flow isn't everything. These are low velocity ports, so if you want to use that CFM you need to be up above 6000 rpm.

The real ticket with these heads is epoxy filling part of the ports (especially the exhaust and the lower part of the intake port). Then you can raise the exhaust runner with some plates. If you have your porting and filling done by someone that knows what they are doing you can have a pretty bad ass set of iron heads, but the cost will not be much cheaper than a set of AFR 225s.

Also, cleveland heads are big, bigger than windsor heads, and heavy, about 75 lbs each. So factor that into the equation as well.
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post #9 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryans88gt
A standard short side port typically nets 340 cfm on the intake side and 220 cfm on the exhuast side. All out porting has produced some heads with 380+ CFM intake and 250+ CFM exhuast. So yeah, they will outflow many if not most aluminum heads.

BUT flow isn't everything. These are low velocity ports, so if you want to use that CFM you need to be up above 6000 rpm.

The real ticket with these heads is epoxy filling part of the ports (especially the exhaust and the lower part of the intake port). Then you can raise the exhaust runner with some plates. If you have your porting and filling done by someone that knows what they are doing you can have a pretty bad ass set of iron heads, but the cost will not be much cheaper than a set of AFR 225s.

Also, cleveland heads are big, bigger than windsor heads, and heavy, about 75 lbs each. So factor that into the equation as well.
I don't know who told you a stock Cleveland head goes 340/220 but there is now way they do with out major work like port plates and welding as you mentioned. The CHI heads don't even flow that much out of the box.

My daily driver has 16 cylinders and 4400hp @ 1000 rpm....


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post #10 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell
The CHI heads don't even flow that much out of the box.
The small port 225 cc CHI heads flow over 340 cfm out of the box without porting....see attached picture from CHI's website

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell
I don't know who told you a stock Cleveland head goes 340/220 but there is now way they do with out major work like port plates and welding as you mentioned.
The person that told me was a flow bench...he is pretty hard to argue with and never listens to what I say.

Stock 4V cleveland heads do flow 340 cfm with short side work as I mentioned. Not much work, just a cleanup of the bowl area and smoothing out the radius and a decent valve job. I have the flow sheets for a set of heads with about 10 hrs in them, just not in electronic form, so you'll have to take my word for it.

If you don't believe me, there are some old articles with flow data...recorded at 28" Hg

Mustang & Fords - Dec. 1999 280 cfm on as cast heads

Super Ford - Sept. 1991 360 cfm on ported heads
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post #11 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 02:22 PM
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Also CHI has built several motors with 700+ NA HP with their 225 cc heads.

88 GT CHI headed 351w 10.8 @ 125 - still figuring it out.
03 Cobra 2.3 whipple 10.7 @ 129 - sold it
04 Mach 1 12.7 @ 109 mostly stock - sold it
89 LX procharged 302 515 hp 497 ftlbs 10.7 @130 mph - sold it

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post #12 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 03:23 PM
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I've never seen a Cleveland head flow that much with minor work. I'm curious as to what bench they used.

I know what CHI products are capable of.

My daily driver has 16 cylinders and 4400hp @ 1000 rpm....


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post #13 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell
I've never seen a Cleveland head flow that much with minor work.
How many cleveland heads have you seen?? The port size is 275+ cc and is about 1 full inch shorter than a windsor head port (due to the intake valve being very close to the intake). It would be embarrassing not to flow those kind of numbers with a port that big. I'm sure with modern port design, it would be easy to flow 380+ CFM from a similarly size port.

As I said, flow isn't the problem with cleveland heads, velocity is the problem.



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post #14 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryans88gt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell
I've never seen a Cleveland head flow that much with minor work.
How many cleveland heads have you seen?? The port size is 275+ cc and is about 1 full inch shorter than a windsor head port (due to the intake valve being very close to the intake). It would be embarrassing not to flow those kind of numbers with a port that big. I'm sure with modern port design, it would be easy to flow 380+ CFM from a similarly size port.

As I said, flow isn't the problem with cleveland heads, velocity is the problem.



I've seen a few........ We used to use the Cleveland stuff years ago when aftermarket Windsor heads were scarce. There was a company that made an intake specifically for this swap but I can't remember the name off hand. I think they were located in Michigan. The intake ports aren't anywhere near 275cc. The common 351C 4V C4V D1ZE-GA has a 244cc intake port, 137cc exhaust port, 2.19 intake/1.71 exhaust and as cast flows around 284/154 @ .600.

BH Performance ported a set of 4V heads a while back that went 330/200 @ .700 lift fully ported.

My daily driver has 16 cylinders and 4400hp @ 1000 rpm....


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post #15 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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351 clevor

im looking to do this to a 408 stroker for strip use my reason is cause most of the aftermarket race heads lke blue thunder and the yates heads seam to be modeled after these i have access to a set of 4v heads at the machine shop i work at part time so i am going to do all the neccasary filling porting and drilling myself and that 280 cfm as cast still outflows my alumys by at least 10/15 cfm and with some bowl work possibly more. thanks for the info very enlightening
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post #16 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 09:51 PM
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Re: 351 clevor

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5litercobra
im looking to do this to a 408 stroker for strip use my reason is cause most of the aftermarket race heads lke blue thunder and the yates heads seam to be modeled after these i have access to a set of 4v heads at the machine shop i work at part time so i am going to do all the neccasary filling porting and drilling myself and that 280 cfm as cast still outflows my alumys by at least 10/15 cfm and with some bowl work possibly more. thanks for the info very enlightening
Yes the Yates, Blue Thunder, Neal, etc are some what modeled around the Cleveland head. Like Ryan said, you will need to turn some rpm to make those big 4V ports work.

My daily driver has 16 cylinders and 4400hp @ 1000 rpm....


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post #17 of 22 Old October 22nd, 2007, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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as mentioned this is a 408 solid roller block drag profile cam. Hopefully the extra 67 inces will help to compensate for the velocity issue and at the flow of 280 cfm they only support 575hp w/o a power adder im hoping to max out
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post #18 of 22 Old October 23rd, 2007, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell

I've seen a few........ We used to use the Cleveland stuff years ago when aftermarket Windsor heads were scarce. There was a company that made an intake specifically for this swap but I can't remember the name off hand. I think they were located in Michigan. The intake ports aren't anywhere near 275cc. The common 351C 4V C4V D1ZE-GA has a 244cc intake port, 137cc exhaust port, 2.19 intake/1.71 exhaust and as cast flows around 284/154 @ .600.

BH Performance ported a set of 4V heads a while back that went 330/200 @ .700 lift fully ported.
B&A performance made the intakes, that is what I have on my engine. They went out of business years ago, Bush performance (Arkansas) bought the casting equipment and manufactured a few more for a number of years. They went out of business too, no more B&A intakes. I see them on Ebay every once in awhile for like $800. CHI is the only company I know of that currently makes an intake. Rumors have it that edelbrock is going to make a windsor intake for their new aluminum cleveland heads. My ports measured 275 cc as cast, there is a lot of variation from year to year and closed chamber and open chamber ports are not exactly the same. Also the 302B heads have a slightly bigger port near the valve to accommodate the 2.25 intake valve.
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post #19 of 22 Old October 23rd, 2007, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5litercobra
as mentioned this is a 408 solid roller block drag profile cam. Hopefully the extra 67 inces will help to compensate for the velocity issue and at the flow of 280 cfm they only support 575hp w/o a power adder im hoping to max out
Probe makes some pistons that will work with a 408 windsor stroker with a cleveland valve relief and they make them in dished sizes as well...

I thought about doing this as well, but it is so much easier to do a standard 408 stroker...
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post #20 of 22 Old October 23rd, 2007, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info ive been looking i guess the info on bush is out dated parker makes an intake for the 2v clevor looks nice but obviously not a match looks like i have some searching too do ive also seen the probe pistons and will probably go with those cause i do plan on spraying it looking for low 10's any way thanks again.
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