[98SilverBullet]

Well revised my setup that i think I am going to get. This is also my DD. I got something else for my weekend warrior.

Setup:
Steeda G-Trac 1 & 2 (Open to suggestions on suspension)
4:10's
D/R
75mm TB
Plenum
JLT CAI
Pi Intake
Stage 2 Crower Cams (Springs & Retainers)
Shorty Headers (Open to suggestions)

What kind of reliability will I lose with the cams? What horsepower and track numbers will I be looking at?

Thanks

[nes]

probably not much, u should be around 240-250rwhp, do lts, and probably around 13.5 ish with good driving(plz cut better then a 2.4 60ft) and i will constantly suggest pi heads with an after market cam and the thicker head gaskets (since u plan on FI) u will like it much more and with the right tune could possibly see 280-290rwhp and be deep in the 12s... just my suggestion

[98SilverBullet]

I don't think i am going to do FI on the car. Like i said its my dd and if i sank the cost of a super charger in my DSM then my DSM would eat most Super Charged 4.6. 240 seems low

[Monster stang 97]

240 is good for a 96-98 but low for the 99-04's. just get the P.I. heads too along with stage II cams and hit 270-290rwhp with a good tune and call it a day!

[ujslost]

280-290 with a SC and a tune? thats all? geez these mod motors really are turds

[96GTRagTop]

280-290 with only a 9psi sc. With more boost u can easily put over 350 to the wheels. But then your going to need to rip apart the internals otherwise your eventually going to fry something.

[ujslost]

Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible?

[nes]

i meant 280-290 NA.

i think with your stock heads,pi cams, pi intake, and an sc u could see 350rwhp with a safe tune pretty easily.

if 300 is ur goal, stop modding now and save for ur sc, there is nothing else on the earth like a supercharged mustang lol. especially when you already love them, u will love them even more

[Boomer]

Originally Posted by ujslost Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible?

That should be fairly easy and reliable, just be sure to get a blower friendly cam. Honestly with a set of stock PI cams and a intake over 300 should be attainable fairly easy. Install the cams at 112* intake centerline rather than 114* and they be a little more blower friendly. On my buddies 97 we installed the pi's at 114* and they really woke up the car out of the hole, on a blower car this may be a little to much and could lead to detonation without a good tune. I have not seen very many blower friendly cams for a npi headed mustang , you could always have a custom set ground.

[nes]

Originally Posted by Boomer Originally Posted by ujslost Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible? That should be fairly easy and reliable, just be sure to get a blower friendly cam. Honestly with a set of stock PI cams and a intake over 300 should be attainable fairly easy. Install the cams at 112* intake centerline rather than 114* and they be a little more blower friendly. On my buddies 97 we installed the pi's at 114* and they really woke up the car out of the hole, on a blower car this may be a little to much and could lead to detonation without a good tune. I have not seen very many blower friendly cams for a npi headed mustang , you could always have a custom set ground.

well in short, npi heads are not worth it, they dont leave enough room for change in the future... i would just get some blower friendly cams and pi heads(youll thank me later if you do) because after u start modding and feel the 300 hp in your own car, u will want more, i guarantee it.

[Boomer]

Originally Posted by nes Originally Posted by Boomer Originally Posted by ujslost Im wanting around 300 to the wheels, using cams, stock heads, PI intake, boltons and a SC. Seem possible? That should be fairly easy and reliable, just be sure to get a blower friendly cam. Honestly with a set of stock PI cams and a intake over 300 should be attainable fairly easy. Install the cams at 112* intake centerline rather than 114* and they be a little more blower friendly. On my buddies 97 we installed the pi's at 114* and they really woke up the car out of the hole, on a blower car this may be a little to much and could lead to detonation without a good tune. I have not seen very many blower friendly cams for a npi headed mustang , you could always have a custom set ground. well in short, npi heads are not worth it, they dont leave enough room for change in the future... i would just get some blower friendly cams and pi heads(youll thank me later if you do) because after u start modding and feel the 300 hp in your own car, u will want more, i guarantee it.

I know you don't want to begin the discussion about what the difference in the heads are with me . First of all these heads are all I work on to improve both PI and NPI, now I have even moved into working on Svo heads. You can continue to believe what you are told or what read read in your magazines. Spend the same amount of money on each head in porting and valve work and you will see the npi far betters the P.I accrossed the board. Sure you can focus all you want on cfm numbers (the amount of air that is moved thru the runner) however that doesn't show a working power making cylinder head.

So my challenge disprove the numbers I have, show me the intake pulse charges from a P.I head and velocity. As I always move the topic to, if the P.I is so great why did frpp make the svo head from the npi casting. We all know the Svo heads out of the box outf;ow and out perform almost all ported heads (P.I).

Evenyullay I will talk Casper into allowing me to get a sticky showing these numbers from not only my source but many others that have proven the facts I am stating. LOL, no need I have noth ing to prove, more like the P.I people need to prove their "theories".

Even stock the number are so close you can't base a decision of what is better. People talk about the intake port mismatch, it has been show and documented that a minor mismatch will actually help with a restricted air intake system by altering the intake air pulses to produce 4-7 rwhp gains. Not something I made up at all, most NASCAR teams do this on their restrictor plate motors to increase or overcome the smaller plate openings.

Yes the P.I intake runners have a little more area that can be removed but also suffer from a horrible short side radius at the troat area and show a large turbulance and velocity lose when ported wrong. The small turn on the entry area to the throat also hinders the direct path to the bowl area. I short you would have to add material to a P.I head to make it flow the high lift numbers the npi's are capible of.

With a little more engineering time ford could have produced a much better alternative to the P.I head, under the deadlines and time restraints they used what worked.

Reading up on the Laws of continuity have changed many peoples train of thought.

[nes]

i never said the pis flow better then npis anywhere(if i did i didnt mean to) what my theory is that the npis dont leave much of any room to grow, as far as the aftermarket parts go, the pis will always be surperior as for that. i would love to see these flow numbers and what not(i dont doubt they exist) i just will continue to remain firm with what i say regaurdless of the flow numbers, and charts until i see npi cars out there showing the evidence...anyway its late, i probably shouldnt be typing i gotta be early but its blah...

[ujslost]

Originally Posted by nes i meant 280-290 NA. i think with your stock heads,pi cams, pi intake, and an sc u could see 350rwhp with a safe tune pretty easily. if 300 is ur goal, stop modding now and save for ur sc, there is nothing else on the earth like a supercharged mustang lol. especially when you already love them, u will love them even more

Yeah I havnet bought any mods, except the subframes and 4.10s i just put in. Gonna save up to do the SC next tax season.

[Casper98GT]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i never said the pis flow better then npis anywhere(if i did i didnt mean to) what my theory is that the npis dont leave much of any room to grow, as far as the aftermarket parts go, the pis will always be surperior as for that. i would love to see these flow numbers and what not(i dont doubt they exist) i just will continue to remain firm with what i say regaurdless of the flow numbers, and charts until i see npi cars out there showing the evidence...anyway its late, i probably shouldnt be typing i gotta be early but its blah...

What ? The Npi vs. PI heads could go on for EVAH. But it wont. Im along with Boomer and i like npi's as well. How and what kinda of information can you use to backup that PI's have more room to grow ? Aftermarket parts? What kinda aftermarket parts will you put on PI cars that you cant do Npi cars ? And if you PI head a NPI car, you cant boost as much as a Npi car.

I cant wait for this to blow up....

[AnglicoGT98]

Everyone I'e talked to that have PI heads say they never regret it. I'm actually doing it myself. But it DOES depend on what your total outcome of the car will be. You said you're not going to FI it. Then go with the PI's. Since you don't have to worry about the higher compression causing problems (b/c again, you're not FI) then that extra power you get from having the PI heads wouldn't hurt. But I agree with casper...This debate could go on forever.

[Casper98GT]

WHY....Thats the main thing here i wanna know.

WHY do you think PI own Npis.

You need to backup why you think they are superoir and where you got the information.

How are they better in the long run ?

[nes]

Originally Posted by Casper98GT WHY....Thats the main thing here i wanna know. WHY do you think PI own Npis. You need to backup why you think they are superoir and where you got the information. How are they better in the long run ?

in the long run? look at intake manifolds, u cant put pis on npis without modification (i dont wanna do alot of fab work for 10hp do u) u cant put certain pi cams in npi without port jobs (that sucks, i want a good streetfriendly cam not no lift over .500) hp from the pi swap is around 45-50 rwhp to the wheels (correct, if the pi swap only boost the extra from compression, y bother with the low compression gaskets? im thinking they give horsepower from more then just compression) but the pi intake to cam swap ive seen give best 35 rwhp dyno tuned (last i checked 15-20 hp could easily be .5 sec in the quarter...) but the reason y i believe pis are better is just like it was stated above, every1 who does the swap say they LOVE it reguardless, they will do it again, and alot of people who do the intake and cams claim they wish they woulda just done the heads too. im looking for the most power outta my stang, not nickle and diming parts, i think the pi swap with a nice size turbo is what will be coming within the next year

[nes]

o0o and flow charts and what not dont mean much, without a dyno graph of the npis vs pis i could care less... i dont mean to completely bash npis in general but im just saying the pis are worth the 300 dollars you may spend on them in the long run...

[Boomer]

Originally Posted by nes o0o and flow charts and what not dont mean much, without a dyno graph of the npis vs pis i could care less... i dont mean to completely bash npis in general but im just saying the pis are worth the 300 dollars you may spend on them in the long run...

I will tell you you are a complete utter MORON. The "claims" you make show you have little to no knowledge about these motors.
I have seen a guy bolt on a P.I intake and cams with a tune pick up 48 rwhp. The only true gain with the P.I head is the compression bump due to a smaller combustion chamber.
To say a flow chart doesn't mean much is like saying John force should run a V-tec. A dyno is a instrument used to tune a vehicle to achieve optimal performance, just because one car makes more than another doesn't mean it will be faster. How the power is put down to the ground is what makes a car fast.

FACTS !!!!!!!
1 . bolting on the P.I intake is worth 15-20 rwhp average
2 bolting on the P.I cam is wrth another 15-25 rwhp
3 The little bit of rtv it takes to install the intake will not leak, for that matter a little tig welding would be 100% insurance of no leaks.
4 the compression bump from the P.I head is worth 5-10 rwhp
YOU HAVE YET TO POST ONE FACT, BUT CONTINUE TO POST OPINIONS

Now that I've had to put you over my knee like a 4 year old a give you a verbal whooping, shut your pie hole.

[nes]

Originally Posted by Boomer Originally Posted by nes o0o and flow charts and what not dont mean much, without a dyno graph of the npis vs pis i could care less... i dont mean to completely bash npis in general but im just saying the pis are worth the 300 dollars you may spend on them in the long run... I will tell you you are a complete utter MORON. The "claims" you make show you have little to no knowledge about these motors. I have seen a guy bolt on a P.I intake and cams with a tune pick up 48 rwhp. The only true gain with the P.I head is the compression bump due to a smaller combustion chamber. To say a flow chart doesn't mean much is like saying John force should run a V-tec. A dyno is a instrument used to tune a vehicle to achieve optimal performance, just because one car makes more than another doesn't mean it will be faster. How the power is put down to the ground is what makes a car fast. FACTS !!!!!!! 1 . bolting on the P.I intake is worth 15-20 rwhp average 2 bolting on the P.I cam is wrth another 15-25 rwhp 3 The little bit of rtv it takes to install the intake will not leak, for that matter a little tig welding would be 100% insurance of no leaks. 4 the compression bump from the P.I head is worth 5-10 rwhp YOU HAVE YET TO POST ONE FACT, BUT CONTINUE TO POST OPINIONS Now that I've had to put you over my knee like a 4 year old a give you a verbal whooping, shut your pie hole.

show me dyno graphs i say flow charts dont mean much because without the dyno graph backing them up showing the differences it doesnt. i never said i knew everything i just know a few things, fact pi intake has been prove 18 rwhp fact pi cams has been proven 15rwhp (thats the best ive ever seen show me different) fact, the little bit of rtv that you all keep talking about still allowed my intake to leak showing that it can still happen with the rtv. and dyno numbers dont mean shit, im looking at the graphs im looking at track times and what not, flow charts havnt been backed up enough with a cam suitible for what im going for and what most others are going for PERIOD u know that and i know that, on a budget (like most of us) the pi heads will remain surperior, THATS A FVCKING Fact for the books, ur chart as stated b4 doesnt make sense to most of the people on this board, im stating facts that its not even a comparison for aftermarket as far as pi vs npi. i never wanted a debate, just wanted that to be put out there, u r gunna continue to believe what u want to when saying "omg npis are so much better because they so like flow so much better then so like pis do whent they are so ported"( ) but in reality the track times are what matters.

ps i know the comp cams 262s and 270s both have a lift of .500 so lets not get into a knowledge debate, they are simply not for my setup and not for many others. (even though they are a good street cam)

but lets look at some more dyno numbers shall we, lets see a npi mustang with the pi intake and comp cams 262s with boltons and a tune will have what 255-260 rwhp (some1 back me up on this i know thats pretty accurate) but a pi car with the same cams and bolons will put down 270 -280 rwhp, i cant believe there is arguement over more horsepower

like said b4 this debate can go on all day, y dont we end it with saying to each his own