[UnixHH]

This is GREAT info guys.. i took this off SVTPerformance (hopefully an admin can put these 4 together and make it a sticky it would only let me put so much info at a time)

Greetings All Forced Induction Enthusiasts:
The common basis I will be touching grounds will be the following. (Dyno Testing, Detonation, Intercooler/Aftercooler, Various Supercharger Tests, FMUs, and other accessories based on expirience.)

Dyno Tuning

The first thing I would like a customer would be a datalog. If you can get a copy of your short pull datalogged, I'd like to take a look at it. I can almost guess what the problem is currently, but without the datalog information I can't tell you for sure. If you are familiar with datalogging and what it can do for you as a expirienced tuner will know, let me educate you a little on exactly what it does. As I have learend through my expirience of tuning:


OPEN & CLOSED LOOP OPERATION

What are they and why are they important? Because in order to have a complete stock like ECU after having the vehicle modified, you need to work like the stock ECU. You need to at least understand how the ECU works with open and closed loop operation.

- CLOSED LOOP OPERATION
Closed loop is when the ECU is set to feed off the factory O2 sensor. Its target is to get a perfect stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1. Isn’t that too lean? For tuning WOT runs, yes. But in the real world, not necessarily. Ever since emissions testing came along, all vehicles were required to both run cleaner and still have good gas mileage. Look at the chart below.


As you can see, stoich is where HC and CO are both at minimal levels. Of course there’s not much you can do here about NOx, but as long as it’s not at its peak either. That’s what counts.

So how does stoich fall into good gas mileage. Well, think about it. If you had more air vs. fuel, then you would be using less fuel. Take for example a 9:1 a/f ratio vs. a 14.7:1 a/f ratio. A 9:1 means you are using 9 parts air to 1 part fuel. That’s a lot of fuel being used for just 9 parts of air. So when you use 14.7:1, you get more fuel economy. As a matter of fact, the leaner you run, the more fuel efficient your vehicle is. Hence Honda Imports are calling it's VTEC-E engines “Lean Burn” engines. They burn learner to get more gas mileage for each part fuel.

The downfall to burning lean is that you will create more NOx as can be seen in the chart above. NOx is directly related to heat. So the leaner your combustion, the hotter your engine burns. As a result, you get a lot more NOx pollutants out your tailpipe which is not good for emissions. Another reason why stoich is the ideal target ratio for gasoline powered engines. Its currently the best spot for gas mileage and emissions.

Okay so how does the ECU and O2 sensor work? The ECU constantly takes feedback from the O2 sensor to keep in the stoich range. The graph below is what our stock O2 sensor’s range is.


The O2 will constantly fluctuate back and forth between rich and lean. That’s just how it works. If you pull a waveform of the O2 over time, you will see that it’s a sine wave. That’s why many people see their Autometer A/F meter gauge fluctuate back and forth. The meter isn’t totally worthless. If anything, it’ll tell you if the O2 is not functioning right. Better yet, start calling it the O2 sensor gauge instead of the A/F mixture gauge. At least now you know your money wasn’t totally wasted.

So what does this all mean really? It means it’s important to have good gas mileage in a modified car. It means you can’t just forget about this part of the ECU when dyno tuning. Once we cover the open loop operation, then we’ll tie everything together.

- OPEN LOOP OPERATION

Okay finally, we’re done with the emissions stuff and ready to handle the big power stuff everyone’s been waiting for. Open loop is when the ECU feeds off directly from preset fuel maps stored in the ECU. The ECU totally ignores the information sent to it from the stock O2 sensor. If you have the Autometer A/F gauge, this is where you will notice that it goes rich.

Okay so I lied, the Autometer does have a bit more use to it than just flashing bouncing lights. It reads your A/F in open loop operation, otherwise known as WOT (wide open throttle). Keep in mind though, its scale of accuracy is very little. And it can’t tell you how rich or how lean you are, just a direction of richer or leaner. When it comes to an engine, more precise info is needed.

This is as far as most people will go in terms of tuning. This is the tuning part we all talk about when you visit your local dyno tuner. Because all your dyno runs are done at WOT, this is the fuel map that your local tuner saves for you when you are satisfied with your results.

This method is preferred because you don’t want to be running the stock fuel maps when you are boosting or have cams that are beefier than stock. That stock fuel map just won’t do it for you. If you’ve gone this far, kudos for you because now you have made all those performance parts you put into your car worthwhile. It’s now actually doing some good than just taking up space.

So what about people who want dual setups? You know, that high boost drag strip map and then a street tune so it’s street able or drive able. You can, but that’s going to be quite hard. As a matter of fact, only a few setups can allow for that. Even then, it’s going to take some time to upload the new map for each time you switch from drag strip to street.

Originally Posted by RandomRacer@Track
This statement I see a lot :
"Is it ok for a daily driver at 7-10 psi and 13 at the track."


This is a NO NO someone tell me what's wrong with this statement ?

When you tune your tuning for what ? AFR ! Guess what....When you tune the car at 10psi and then head down to your local track and crank it up to 13psi !!! What do you think happens to your AFR ? You guessed it... It's not the same as 10psi !!! What does this mean ?
NOT SMART huh....DUH !

When you tune on a dyno and set your AFR and your at 10-psi, that's what your tuning is set at !!! PERIOD ! Crank that psi up and all the $$$ you just spent went down the drain because your NOT properly tuned anymore ! When you crank up the boost your pushing more air in the motor and this means your AFR = AIR FUEL RATIO has NOW CHANGED !!!= RISK ! HIGH RISK !! DANGER ! Not smart ! When you tune, your tuned ! LEAVE it alone or your NOT tuned anymore ! Now, now you stand alone guys read below...

Let me clarify a bit more on the tune for proper afr and set it and forget it...

What that means is you need to load another fuel map for that psi level if you were to crank up the boost from 10 to say 13-15psi.
If your running a stand alone system. But again keep this in mind.
You still need to tune proper!

I don’t think I can say it any better than that for multiple boost applications. Just pick what boost level you want and stay with it. Now your car runs like a champ… but sadly, only at WOT.

You soon realize that your gas mileage is poor. You worry about emissions because of all these performance parts on the car. What are you going to do when you have to take the sniffer test? Swap all those parts back out for stock? Heck no! Go one step further. Datalog that sucker!


- DATALOGGING

What datalogging is what others may refer to as street tune. What street tuning does is allows the ECU to learn what the car needs at certain throttle/RPM/load through each gear. A laptop is NOT a must on any of these systems, its just an added feature to help tuning to a next level.

The most important thing you will need here for datalogging is a WBO2 (wideband O2) sensor and controller. In most cases, you’d want to get a gauge also. Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of getting a WB kit in the first place.

The WBO2 sensor is practically the same size as the stock unit, but uses 7 wires instead of 4. Its also a 5V sensor compared to the 1V sensor that’s used with the stock setup. Here are some pictures of the WBO2 sensor and the factory sensor for comparison purposes.


Since the stock system is calibrated to feed off a 1v signal, using the 5v sensor is a bad idea. JUST DON’T DO IT. That’s where the WB controller comes in. You will need the WBO2 controller to make any use of the WBO2 sensor.

As I said before, when I started out there weren’t too many options. As a matter of fact, there was only the FJO unit, which many dyno tuners themselves used for well over $1k, and the TechEdge unit. So I opt for the TechEdge unit for cost. Today there are many other choices to choose from. PLX, Innovate Motorsports, Zeitronix, FJO, AEM, & Wideband Commander are among the many other choices out there. So look over all of them and choose which one best suits your needs and fits your budget.

With the WBO2 kit, you are now able to do another pat of tuning that many people can not get at a regular dyno tune (which only does WOT tuning, especially roller dyno's). I will not go into the datalogging technique myself because it’s different for each unit and standalone that you are using. What I will say though is that once you have it hooked up, drive around town with it. Do whatever you want. Make sure you get as many different possible driving conditions as possible.

Once you are done, you have to set the WBO2 to target 14.7:1 when you are in closed loop. Have the ECU set to ignore the 14.7:1 a/f ratio when in open loop so that it reads off the WOT fuel maps.

In essence what you are trying to do is what the manufacturer has done to the stock ECU. Have it target a particular a/f when in closed loop and have a designated fuel map to run off when in open loop. This way you can have both fuel economy and power in only one map. Now you won’t have to worry about adjusting for different fuel maps or boost levels at the drag strip and worrying about possible damage to your engine. With the functions of open and closed loop at the flip of your foot, you will have a stock like ECU built to match your setup.

Your car is already set up to do all these wonderful things. You just got to know how to take advantage of it. It’s all about open and closed loop operation. Once you understand that, you will be able to have max power at WOT runs and good fuel economy while driving regularly. Talk about a Jekyll & Hyde setup.

Lastly, I said all the above to say this: If your tuner isn't expirienced in the world of "custom tuning" then he's not going to be able to look at your datalog map and know how to adjust to your cars behavior. Your car may have some small issues. (exhaust leak, vacuum leak, wiring etc etc) But you cant be able to pinpoint these issue if your tuner can't give you an idea from your datalog map. He could have loaded a different fuel map to see how you car reacts, but I'm almost convinced he is only used to tweaking out the box tunes. He hasn't have the slightest idea what "custom tuning" is all about.

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Turbo vs Supercharger


It's one of the most common questions we are asked - the answer to which is almost impossible to find
"What is better - a supercharger or a turbo?"

We only wish the answer were that simple, but unfortunately it is not. The simple answer is:
"It depends."
But don't worry, we'll go into more depth than that here. Both superchargers and turbos have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Selecting the right kind of forced induction for your vehicle will depend upon your particular vehicle, your driving habits, your power preferences, and your needs.

Clearing Up Confusion



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According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, a supercharger is defined as:
"a device (as a blower or compressor) for pressurizing the cabin of an airplane or for increasing the volume air charge of an internal combustion engine over that which would normally be drawn in through the pumping action of the pistons".
A turbocharger is defined as:
"a centrifugal blower driven by exhaust gas turbines and used to supercharge an engine".


According to Webster's, a turbocharger is included in the definition for superchargers - it is in fact a very specific type of supercharger - one that is driven by exhaust gasses. Other superchargers that do not fall into this category - the kind that we are all used to hearing about - are normally driven directly from the engine's crankshaft via a crank pulley. So in reality, it is not fair to compare all superchargers to turbochargers, because all turbochargers are also superchargers. For the purpose of this discussion, however, a supercharger will be considered all superchargers that are are not driven directly by the engine, while turbochargers will be considered all superchargers that are driven by engine exhaust gasses.

Similarities



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Both superchargers and turbochargers are forced induction systems and thus have the same objective - to compress air and force more air molecules into the engine's combustion chambers than would normally be allowed at atmospheric pressure here on Earth (14.7 psi at sea level). The benefit of forcing more air molecules into the combustion chambers is that it allows your engine to burn more fuel per power stroke. With an internal combustion engine, burning more fuel means that you convert more fuel into energy and power. For this reason, supercharged and turbocharged engines normally produce 40% to 100%+ more power (depending on the amount of boost - check out our horespower calculator) than normally aspirated engines.

How They Work


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A supercharger is mounted to the engine and is driven by a pulley that is inline with the crank (or accessory) belt. Air is drawn into the supercharger and compressed by either an impeller (centrifugal-style supercharger), twin rotating screws (screw-type supercharger), or counter-rotating rotors (roots-type supercharger). The air is then discharged into the engine's intake. Faster crank speed (more engine rpm) spins the supercharger faster and allows the supercharger to produce more boost (normally 6 to 9 psi for a street vehicle). Typical peak operating speeds for a supercharger are around 15,000 rpm (screw-type and roots style superchargers) and 40,000 rpm (centrifugal-style superchargers).

A turbocharger operates in much the same way as a centrifugal (internal impeller) supercharger, except it is not driven by pulleys and belts attached to the engine's crank. A turbo is instead driven by exhaust gasses that have been expelled by the engine and are travelling through the exhaust manifold. The exhaust gas flows through one half of the turbocharger's turbine, which drives the impeller that compresses the air. Typical operating speeds of a turbocharger are between 75,000 and 150,000 rpm.

Head to Head Comparison


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Now it's time to evaluate the turbocharger versus the supercharger according to several important factors.

Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.

Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the tubo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.

Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.

Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.

Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.

Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.

Noise
The turbocharger is generally quiter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)

Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.

Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.

Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.

Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.

Conclusion


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While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.

I hope you have found this discussion informative and unbiased. Sometimes when I explain this to people, they say that we are biased towards superchargers because that is all most shops carry. I remind those customers that a turbo is a kind of supercharger and that I truly hope to see turbochargers conquer superchargers someday.

[Jakashh]

this guy deserves a blowjob.

[chefalan23]

Originally Posted by Jakashh this guy deserves a blowjob.

lmfao

[Seabee]

im sorry, i cant do it. thats a novel right there, by the time i read about a minute into it, id wanna kill myself

[UnixHH]

the knowledge you'll get will be worth your time trust me

[Seabee]

oh i believe it, its just too late to use my brain and read

[UnixHH]

Originally Posted by NavySeabee87 oh i believe it, its just too late to use my brain and read

[sxynerd]

Hell, with that much info, I'll even let it slide that he's in Ocean-slime, California. lol.


..San Clemente and San Mateo FTMFW!~)

[UnixHH]

Originally Posted by sxynerd Hell, with that much info, I'll even let it slide that he's in Ocean-slime, California. lol. ..San Clemente and San Mateo FTMFW!~)

lol hey im not here by choice ... just doin my part

[sxynerd]

Originally Posted by UnixHH lol hey im not here by choice ... just doin my part

I here yeah. I'm from The valley (Granada Hills) but was stationed at 1/5 and pretty much decided then I was going to retire in San Clemente...Or LB..lol

[UnixHH]

i havent heard from doc in a while ... where has he been?

[sxynerd]

Originally Posted by UnixHH i havent heard from doc in a while ... where has he been?

Are you talking to me? And are you talking about "Holiday"??

[TheUNZippee!]

Great information.

This stuff will go perfectly with that. I'm adding this into a sticky here.




Turbo's & Centrifugal type s/c'ers make more power in the middle & top of the powerband.
Roots type & Whipples, or twin screws, make better power in the lower half of the powerband. It all depends on what you want & when you want it.

Learn about twin screws (Whipple): Twin Screw

Learn about Roots type: Roots

Learn about Centrifugal s/cers: Centri's

Learn about turbos: Turbos

[TheUNZippee!]

I put this thread in this sticky.


http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...ow-center.html

[UnixHH]

there are 4 total threads to this. I could post it all in one. Too long

[mustang2000]

thanks for the info great stuff

[dcook_14]

Did you read the other three too? They are great as well. I wish these would get bumped to the top more often...