[prodrifterx]

ok i done lots of research on this topic and lots of searching many forums for multiple days straight--still need help.

i sent accel, msd, and gms emails regarding their coils. asking what where the specs, did they come with boots, did they come with electrodes and what style of electrode.

--accel only responded thus far with 10-15% more than stock for voltage amount. that they come with boots and electrodes yet they are alike to that oem style being spring desigin and flexible.

--msd has just replied to me sayign that they coe with boots and spring like conductors..yet no specs on volttage output.

--gms responded multiple times and i even called them.
they have 5 designs

oem+ being 20k volts
mpg being 35k volts
hot street being 40k volts
pro series being 60k volts
pro series extreme being 65k volts.

the pro series and pro series extreme use solid conductors in stainless steel i beleive he said with less resistance.....being mainly for high compression and boost. all of their coils come with boots. while the mpg, hot street, and oem + use spring style electrodes......

--fords main downfall of their design is the spring style electrode...solid element is better.

--i sent late model resto an email to see if they would know anything...usually the distributor will just say "we sell them how they are packaged....they are packaged by the manufacturer so we dont know".....yet i havent heard form them.

ok so my question is what to use? car is n/a and will be seeing lots of rpm fluctuiations and such being i like to find back roads and accelerate lol.....

now gms pro series coils(60k), accel super coils, and msd blaster coils are the only ones ever sold online.....every one has their favorite, and manufacturers will usually try to bs you and sell you their product....hence why i like contacting distributors and such bc they dont care they will make money either way.

i thoguht about getting the hot street gms units yet, they will be pricey form the manufacturer.....they rep for tech assist at gms quoted me 550 for the proseries coils (he said if i let him know by tomorrow he will give them to me for 450 and 18 in shipping--i live in md, company in cali)...when we can get them for 440-450 form american muscle and places alike....so i dont wanna know really want bs number he would say for hot streets....yet 10-15% increase on stock output usually is the result of a modified oem unit or design by means of everything the same but less windings or by means of thicker windings and smae number of coils with the coil pack.

so what shall i do?
facts/issues:
-no solid point or factor as to which ones are better since it all depends on factors like modifications, faulty unit or good unit....etc
-car is missing and need to order some, yet want to upgrade at the same time.
-a 60K volt coil imo is probably overkill for a n/a build...yet an oem coil will not meet the demands in most cases.
i'd prefer a solid electrode /element...which if i choose to i can buy that kit (boot and electrode) by either LMR or GMS and still get say accel or msd coils.

any one got any suggestions?
also what plugs are you using with such coil?

rep for useful help here
rep for things that make me laugh as well.

[cliffyk]

The OEM COPs are fine for ANY n/a application, that said I ran into a deal for a "new/old stock" set of Accel COPs at a Mustang show in Daytona--got 'em for $100, %12.50 each!

They made absolutely no difference in power output, I didn't expect they would, but they are pretty looking under the hood of my black car...

BTW, the OEM COPs are spec'd at 40 kV by Ford.

I run Champion single platinum plugs at 0.054" gap. I'm old and been using Champions in everything I've owned for more then 45 years. IMHO, if there was some magical way to make a better spark plug they would have figured it out in the 104 years they have been making them...

You need to find out why your engine is missing first, is it throwing a DTC code (it will if it's consistently misfiring), if so what is it?

-------------
Also, here's some wisdom from my 60+ years life experience, don't believe a damned word someone trying to sell you something says...

[superbeef1000]

eBay Motors: 96-04 MUSTANG GT COBRA 4.6L NOLOGY COILS W/ RACK&WIRING (item 260158226497 end time Aug-03-08 13:17:32 PDT)
awsome coils but a lil on the picy side
Nology HotWires and CoolWires High Performance Spark Plug Wires PDADyno LaptopDyno

[prodrifterx]

cliffyk-------

true. i nkow not to believe 80% of what a tech/sales rep for the manufacturer says.

and true i dont expect an increase in power, rather i expect a stronger more reliable spark for n/a build. yet i believe a 60k or 65k coil will cause plugs to foul very quick since they are meant for high cylinder pressures...which i wont really have for a while.

i've run bosch in everyhting i have owned and in my family's cars...no problems there.

i know why its missing...i know its weak coils...no ses lite, now...yet still missing.....was terrible before i did the plugs...now no ses lite, yet a mild miss compared to the extreme miss that made it feel camm'd.

i do thakn you for your insight....we are on the same page for the most part.....what ive gained form you is that i need to contact ford---no one is consistent not individuals or companies as to what ford coils were specd at.

Originally Posted by superbeef1000 eBay Motors: 96-04 MUSTANG GT COBRA 4.6L NOLOGY COILS W/ RACK&WIRING (item 260158226497 end time Aug-03-08 13:17:32 PDT) awsome coils but a lil on the picy side Nology HotWires and CoolWires High Performance Spark Plug Wires PDADyno LaptopDyno

yea true yet i wont do somethign like that unless i needed more spark or wanted to build something a little more wild. i'll stick with CoP for now...maybe later i'll do DIS8 or Coil near Plug design.

[cliffyk]

The alleged higher voltage will not cause any problems, not will it provide any benefit.

When a plug fires the voltage increases until air/fuel mixture in the plug gap ionises, on an n/a engine at WOT this will happen at 16 to 18 kV, never more than 25 kV.

Once the a/f mix ionises the voltage will drop to 8 to 10 kV as the plug fires, when the stored energy of the coil drops the where the spark can no longer be maintained the remaining energy "rings" in the coil and dissipates.

As pre-ignition combustion chamber pressures and temperatures rise it will take more voltage to ionise a gap of the same size, but not a heck of a lot more to sustain the spark. In the old days we took care of this by close gapping the plugs and replacing them quite often.

Now, with DIS and COP ignition systems, it takes a lot more compression/boost to push beyond an OEM ignition system's limits. The OEM Mustang COPs are entirely sufficient to light up any streetable n/a engine.

How do you know it's weak coils? Have you tested or swapped 'em out?

What plugs are you running, how many miles on them?

Ford has a TSB stating that over 50% of COPs replaced under warranty and returned to the factory have nothing wrong with them.

[superbeef1000]

good info

[prodrifterx]

Originally Posted by cliffyk How do you know it's weak coils? Have you tested or swapped 'em out? What plugs are you running, how many miles on them? Ford has a TSB stating that over 50% of COPs replaced under warranty and returned to the factory have nothing wrong with them.

yes i know its weak coils bc i ahve tested them, by means of swapping and by singling out cylinders by means of rpm and pulling coil connectors. would scope it or even data log it but my work doesnt have a ford data logger nor general data logger. since i work on chevys we have chevy and a dodge scan tool and data analyser.

im running bosch platinums, brand new like 100 miles on them. fact of the matter is that it misfired before i did plugs. heres the story:

1. misfired and set p302....cylinder 2 misfire
2. no p300 random misfire detected dtc--nor were there any other dtcs present
3. checked plugs and coils.
4. 1999 gt mustang with 50k miles. driven daily and occasionally hard.
5. motorcraft platinum plugs--i assume due to over time--- were at .070 for gap.
6. re gapped them to spec and reinstalled those plugs.
7. redrove, and misfire wasnt as bad...
8. checking cylinders by means of disablig coils..found #2 coil/plug assembly no contributing as much compared to other cylinders. (rpm drop when #2 was disconnected was minimal when compared to all other cylinders)
9. consulted a ford/lincoln tech down the street at another dealer--he stated possile coil
10. swapped coils in one by one from a known good car. (my buddy's 04 gt).
11. had #1 in--no differnece, had #4 in no difference, had # 3 in no difference, put #2 in and didnt misfire.
12. put my coils back in.
13. re drove
14. misfire still present(my coils now back in my car)....yet not as bad...only messed with the coils and the electrodes.
15. noticed all boots were dryrotting/cracking due to heat at the bottoms.
16 some electrodes needed adjustment.
17. redrove again.
18. misfire still present but minimal....
19 have changed fuel filter and air filter, have performed an induction service---both as my routine maintenace and another try to fix/avoid buying coils.
20. not MAF, not TB, not IAC...all clean and function properly


i understand the contents and fact that ford instated that tsb yet they do that bc us techs wont bother to diag something...if its warranty will toss a best guess at it immediately. its warranty they will pay for it. they may complain if youre worng occasionally but they still pay for the part.


any one got any suggestions on what coil to use?
also what plugs are you using with such coil?

[SWEET2KSTANG]

i would do as you are thinking, replace with a better set. i am running the gms hot street coils with my set up, i like them a lot. the biggest thing with the coils are all on the top end. the idle is smoother, but the car pulls hard and efficient thru the top end. i recommend the msd of the gms coils if are going to buy aftermarkets.

[prodrifterx]

Originally Posted by SWEET2KSTANG i would do as you are thinking, replace with a better set. i am running the gms hot street coils with my set up, i like them a lot. the biggest thing with the coils are all on the top end. the idle is smoother, but the car pulls hard and efficient thru the top end. i recommend the msd of the gms coils if are going to buy aftermarkets.

whered you get the hot street coils?

you say msd or gms?

[SWEET2KSTANG]

i got mine strait from gms. i got the gms, i recommend them or the msd.

[cliffyk]

Originally Posted by prodrifterx yes i know its weak coils bc i ahve tested them, by means of swapping and by singling out cylinders by means of rpm and pulling coil connectors. would scope it or even data log it but my work doesnt have a ford data logger nor general data logger. since i work on chevys we have chevy and a dodge scan tool and data analyser. im running bosch platinums, brand new like 100 miles on them. fact of the matter is that it misfired before i did plugs. heres the story: 1. misfired and set p302....cylinder 2 misfire 2. no p300 random misfire detected dtc--nor were there any other dtcs present 3. checked plugs and coils. 4. 1999 gt mustang with 50k miles. driven daily and occasionally hard. 5. motorcraft platinum plugs--i assume due to over time--- were at .070 for gap. 6. re gapped them to spec and reinstalled those plugs. 7. redrove, and misfire wasnt as bad... 8. checking cylinders by means of disablig coils..found #2 coil/plug assembly no contributing as much compared to other cylinders. (rpm drop when #2 was disconnected was minimal when compared to all other cylinders) 9. consulted a ford/lincoln tech down the street at another dealer--he stated possile coil 10. swapped coils in one by one from a known good car. (my buddy's 04 gt). 11. had #1 in--no differnece, had #4 in no difference, had # 3 in no difference, put #2 in and didnt misfire. 12. put my coils back in. 13. re drove 14. misfire still present(my coils now back in my car)....yet not as bad...only messed with the coils and the electrodes. 15. noticed all boots were dryrotting/cracking due to heat at the bottoms. 16 some electrodes needed adjustment. 17. redrove again. 18. misfire still present but minimal.... 19 have changed fuel filter and air filter, have performed an induction service---both as my routine maintenace and another try to fix/avoid buying coils. 20. not MAF, not TB, not IAC...all clean and function properly i understand the contents and fact that ford instated that tsb yet they do that bc us techs wont bother to diag something...if its warranty will toss a best guess at it immediately. its warranty they will pay for it. they may complain if youre worng occasionally but they still pay for the part. any one got any suggestions on what coil to use? also what plugs are you using with such coil?

You have obviously done due diligence to find the problem--I missed the fact that you had a 10 year old car.

You can buy new boots and wires for $3 a piece here, and if the COPs have not been damaged by the overload caused by the rotted boots that should fix the problem.

One of the major issues with COPs and DIS ignition system is that the high energy and voltages they can deliver will blow right through any questionably insulated transmission line and fail to ionise the gap. The rotted boots you observed are probably the culprit in this case.

[prodrifterx]

guess i could jsut buy some boots and electrodes and see if that helps.

[sxynerd]

CliFFyK

Quoted for truth!

[whtpny]

what about those sniper coils that have recently hit the market a few months ago? how do they compare with competitors?

[prodrifterx]

Originally Posted by whtpny what about those sniper coils that have recently hit the market a few months ago? how do they compare with competitors?

sniper coils?

where was i? when this happen? gonna have to chk into these as well.

[cliffyk]

The Sniper Sonic-V COPs are of the finest kind, rated at 80 kV. They are a completely new design using a toroidal transfomer. They are are also quite reasonably priced at $400 a set. They are new to the market so long term reliabilty is an unknown at this time, however I saw a set at Sniper's shop in Sanford FL, they are very nicely made and finished.

If I were running some radical compression or boost, or just wanted to spend $400 on COPs, they'd be my only choice.

Nonetheless, I will once again state that for any streetable n/a motor the OEM COPS are all that's needed...

[9Sec03Cobra]

We have made nearly 800 hp on stock coils and see no reason to replace them. We have not seen ANY coils as of yet at our shop on the dyno that have not caused missfire issues that were cured when putting stock coils back in.

If you have a set that work now...Just wait and you will see what i mean.

Thanks
Sean

[cliffyk]

Originally Posted by 9Sec03Cobra We have made nearly 800 hp on stock coils and see no reason to replace them. We have not seen ANY coils as of yet at our shop on the dyno that have not caused missfire issues that were cured when putting stock coils back in. If you have a set that work now...Just wait and you will see what i mean. Thanks Sean

I agree 100%, this whole ignition upgrade "thing" harks back to 40 years ago when we ran mechanical and vacuum advance distributors and upgrading to dual points/dual coils produced more power even on a dead stock car.

The modern DIS and COP systems are light years ahead of what we had back then both in available energy and reliability, but the myth of mystically making more power from magic coils and plugs lives on.

This is in large part of course through the silly claims and pseudo-engineering analyses provided of those selling the "upgrades".

[SGTPinder]

On a side note, all us young guys should be issued an older (experienced for the sensative) guy to hit us whenever we try to re-invent the wheel, i saw the post and thought to self - Hey self, lets find out whats up in the Ignition Coil world, and somehow i felt CliffyK hit me in the back of the head, craziness since i dont even know him....

[cliffyk]

"Old" is fine, at least it's a 3 letter word--at times over the years, particularly in the intemperance of my youth, I've been called a whole lot worse than that...