[Whiskey11]

<Caveat>: I understand full well that the chances of any S197 being competitive in STX at the national level is a wet dream. With the top competitors in STX being Civic Si's and being light weight at that, even the new Fast Track rules if approved would not make STX any more friendly for the S197's new Street Touring home at the national level. These thoughts are more for local than national level competition. I also understand that Vorshlag is doing this with a 2011 Mustang GT, and I'm not surprised they are having troubles making it perform the way they want. Too much power, not wide enough or grippy enough tires, not having worked on fixing the rear suspension. I hope it turns out to work in their favor and break the mold on S197s skipping the STX class for ESP when they start modding. </caveat>


Warning: LONG POST WITH NO CLIFFS!


Locally the fastest STX driver here that I've seen is an unknown prep Acura Integra Type R. At the last event (not a good event for me) he ran a fastest time of 47.316. I ran a fastest time of 50.093. I think with better tires and better suspension I could make up 3 seconds of time on a 50s average course. For sure it is set up to run well, lowered, front splitter, nice wheels and tires I'm assuming shocks/struts as well. I think it's achievable locally anyway.

Street Touring is is a very interesting class, the STX category allows 9" wide wheels and 265mm wide tires for 2WD vehicles, but allows a TON of suspension modifications for live axle cars that are both interesting and equal to ESP in terms of prep level. I've created a short list of items that are approved suspension wise that are applicable to us steel girder rear suspension guys:


-Strut Tower Bar (2 point)
-BOLT ON Sub Frame Connectors
-265mm width tires, 140+ treadwear, 9” wide rims
-Shocks/Struts and mounts open
-Lowering Springs
-Coilovers (provided the rears use an adjustable spring perch and don't convert to coilovers)
-Stainless Steel Brake Lines
-Brake Ducting
-Any brake pads
-Front and Rear Sway Bars
-Camber plates are allowed
-Watts Link
-Torque Arm (can't be attached to Sub Frame Connectors)
-LCA Relocation Brackets
-Cold Air Intake + Tune
-Full Exhaust (must retain high flow Catalytic Converter in close to stock location)
-Short Throw Shifter
-Aftermarket Limited Slip Differential

That is A LOT of modifications to make up some time. I'm confident new tires will be at least a second or more. The problem is going to be Weight, weight and more weight. The S197 is a heavy car (3500lb curb weight) which is mostly why it isn't competitive nationally in any ST class.

Here are my thoughts on this: I've already determined that next year is another year in F-Stock but on new tires, hopefully shocks/struts and front swaybar. That takes care of what I'd consider some of the larger expenditures for the car. The tires being a recurring cost every year (maybe every 2, we'll see how the star specs wear) but here is ultimately my plan:

Tires: Dunlop Direzza Z1 Sport Star Specs, this was obvious. Size for the proper STX build would be 265/35/18s on a 9" wide rim which is pretty easy to accomplish for the S197 but next year will be 245/45/18's on the stock wheels for F-Stock next year.

Shocks/Struts: Koni Yellows, if I can get them. The fronts are still on national back order...

Sway bars: Strano Performance Parts Sway bars with competition endlinks. I plan on running the front for sure next year in F-Stock, having them both allows me to add the rear when I jump out of F-stock to whatever class.

That pretty much covers the cross-over between Stock and ST, now on to the good parts!

Springs: Steeda Competition Springs, should be 225lb/in front and 185 lb/in rear. Drop is only 1" front 1.25" rear. These are supposed to be linear springs which me likey!

Camber Plates/Strut Mounts: Steeda HD mounts. These should allow me to dial in a more aggressive camber setting. Shooting for the -2º mark, maybe slightly less. Should be easily achievable with the lowering springs adding some and then the rest on the HD mounts.

Watts Link: Fays2, this has been obvious for quite some time that this would be going on my car! This should take care of the axle stepping out sideways from lowering and should fix the PHB geometry issues.

LCA Relocation Brackets: The rules are pretty iffy. The rules state that the lower control arms cannot be replaced or relocated but the mounting points are open as well as bushing material?? I take that to mean I can't move them inboard/outboard from the stock locations, but mounting them higher or lower at the axle side is acceptable? If that is the case, Steeda's LCA weld on Relocation brackets sound like a great idea. Many holes to get the level LCA's at the lowered ride height and if I need more anti-squat then I can adjust them lower on the axle side.

Torque Arm: This addition was the part that is shocking to me in Street Touring. I can understand "replaced" but it says "A torque arm or traction arms can be added or replaced". The only stipulation on mounting a torque arm states "6. SFCs may not be used to attach other components (including but not limited to torque arm front mounts or driveshaft loops) and may serve no other purpose." Being as Griggs is the only company that produces a quality Torque Arm for the S197, and that Griggs does not use SFCs in the S197 packages, the Griggs T/A does not attach to the SFCs (since there are none in their package) and even if I added SFCs they still wouldn't attach to the SFC. Instead it attaches to the boxed portion of the floor pan just behind the transmission near the H in the exhaust pipes. There are no other stipulations on mounting a Torque Arm, so it can be welded or bolted. I'd plan on welding.

I'm sure some will wonder "why?" on the torque arm, and all I have to say is:

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - Oskaloosa Airport, Oskaloosa Iowa - Run #1 Suspension View - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - Oskaloosa Airport, Oskaloosa Iowa - Run #1 Suspension View - YouTube

The Pinion angle changes, the violence of the up and down motion and the PHB geometry as a whole just frustrates me. I'm sure that the majority of the issues with pinion angle change is in the LCA bushings flexing under hard acceleration, but I'm hesitant to put poly/poly bushings in the stock LCA's let alone use poly bushings at all on either end. I'm not sure replacing one end with poly and leaving the other the stock rubber bushing will help even a little. The Torque arm eliminates the issues with the LCA bushing compliance in the pinion angle change, and should allow them to do their job properly without binding.


That right there should put down a pretty impressive array of suspension components to cut time off of the car. Being as I'll be running the car for 2 years in F-Stock I think it would be a fun build as a step between ESP (where I'd like to be) and F-stock where it will be coming from. You'll notice I have not added power, or touched the brakes yet. Eventually I'd like to take this car to some "fast friday" events at the now open again Mid America Motorplex's road course, which will have me adding the brake cooling ducts (probably fab up my own), stainless steel brake lines, brake pads with their own set of OEM brake rotors. This class seems to be the perfect balance of consumables (Tires) and performance. A CAI is legal with a tune, and it may be an option if I feel the tires can take the added punishment of a few more HP. We'll have to see if the Dunlops will hold the stock power well enough in a corner.

I think the nice thing about the above suspension set up is a set of wide A6's on wide wheels would land me in ESP with a semi competitive set up. I could even get more aggressive with the dampers and springs using a set of Coilovers (KW Variant 3's most likely, with some form of high quality spring in the 400 lb/in front and 200 lb/in rear range).

What do you guys think? Obviously weight is the big issue for competitiveness. Adding a Torque Arm adds unsprung weight to the heaviest suspension in the car but improves the geometry of the rear end SO MUCH I think the improvements would be worth the added weight. The question is down to whether or not the Dunlops can remain sticky without going greasy on a car that most likely weighs 3600 lbs with me in it (or more actually).

Comments? This is obviously quite a ways out time frame wise, so don't expect build updates. I'm not sure I'll even go this route, more or less playing to see if anyone else thinks it has any merit locally against stiff national level drivers.

[cbjohnson9]

Sounds like you've thought about it quite a bit. My 555's handled the power increase of my p1sc so i don't see why the dunlops wouldn't be able to handle less.

Do they make rlca's with spherical bushings for the s197?

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by cbjohnson9 Sounds like you've thought about it quite a bit. My 555's handled the power increase of my p1sc so i don't see why the dunlops wouldn't be able to handle less. Do they make rlca's with spherical bushings for the s197?

Yes but they are not legal for the class. Some changes being made to the set up. I could change out the stock bushings in the stock LCA's to poly/poly or something non-metallic. The problem is added bind associated with changing out the LCA bushings to poly/poly. Not something I want.

Dropping the Torque Arm and run a Steeda Competition UCA with UCA mount. If I find that traction is severely limited in the rear, then the Torque Arm will be a viable option.

The LCA relocation brackets are not legal so they are out.

Total cost of the build with tires on stock rims is about $3600 which is actually pretty dang reasonable considering Dropping the T/A and the LCA relocation brackets is helping keep the price down. The more I look at this set up, I don't see how it couldn't work locally. At least well enough until I can afford some A6's and move to ESP. I'm not sure I want to move to ESP though.

[Whiskey11]

Figured I should update this. I haven't given up entirely on the idea of running this car in STX, but the reality is that the car wont be competitive outside of the local region anyway. Thankfully every single mod I've chosen is legal in E-Street Prepared and a set of Hoosier A6's would make the car decently competitive.

That said, I have started working towards the goal of changing some of the suspension stuff. Christmas came early, I guess you could say:



Yup, those are D-Specs, not Koni Sports. I talked with Sam and he convinced me it wouldn't be worth the wait (3 months at the earliest, 9 months more likely) for the Koni's and that the D-Specs will provide what I want, if not be a little more firm than they should be. I'll make do for now with these! If I can find someone locally to buy my Remington 700, I will probably take the car a lot further than shocks/struts, swaybar (rear if the rule change goes through for next year) and new tires. I plan on running in the Street Tire PAX like I have been.

[Fast92Coupe]

What else do you do with the car? If it's a daily driver, taking it beyond regionally competitive in anything other than FS will likely mean it won't be something you want to drive all the time. I suspect you'd really want a lot more spring rate- I liked the improvement switching from 400 to 500 lb/in coil overs on a 2940 lb Fox with 55% of the weight on the front wheels. In ESP, you'll be way down on power, and with 315 A6s you can put down a good bit of power.

For next year, go ahead and get the 265 width tires, they should work on 8.5" wide rims. With those, the shocks, and a good alignment it should give you a pretty good idea how close to STX times you are locally.

I daily drive an 06 convertible and STX looks attractive locally. But most likely even if I prep it I'll end up driving someone else's CP or XP car, if I autocross at all this year.

Justin

[94racing]

Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe What else do you do with the car? If it's a daily driver, taking it beyond regionally competitive in anything other than FS will likely mean it won't be something you want to drive all the time. I suspect you'd really want a lot more spring rate- I liked the improvement switching from 400 to 500 lb/in coil overs on a 2940 lb Fox with 55% of the weight on the front wheels. In ESP, you'll be way down on power, and with 315 A6s you can put down a good bit of power. For next year, go ahead and get the 265 width tires, they should work on 8.5" wide rims. With those, the shocks, and a good alignment it should give you a pretty good idea how close to STX times you are locally. I daily drive an 06 convertible and STX looks attractive locally. But most likely even if I prep it I'll end up driving someone else's CP or XP car, if I autocross at all this year. Justin

I think it also depends upon driving style.

Make sure you make a new member intro when you get the time bub

[Fast92Coupe]

Originally Posted by 94racing I think it also depends upon driving style. Make sure you make a new member intro when you get the time bub

At some point it'll depend on driving style, but regardless of style it'll transition faster if you run 400 lb/in springs than if you're running 200 lb/in. Transition speed is much more important for autocrossing than road racing. Driving style will affect the front/rear spring ratio you want. How competitive you want to be, and how tough your competition is will play a role too- sometimes a large one. And once you get super stiff springs and replace lots of soft rubber bushings with delrin or spherical bearings, it can become too much to put up with on the street for the sake of a few tenths on the weekends.

Intro posted.

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe What else do you do with the car? If it's a daily driver, taking it beyond regionally competitive in anything other than FS will likely mean it won't be something you want to drive all the time. I suspect you'd really want a lot more spring rate- I liked the improvement switching from 400 to 500 lb/in coil overs on a 2940 lb Fox with 55% of the weight on the front wheels. In ESP, you'll be way down on power, and with 315 A6s you can put down a good bit of power. Justin

Thanks for the comments!

The car is daily driver first, fun toy second. The reason for the 245/45s vs the widest is more an issue of tire height than it is cramming it on the rim. The 265 dunlops are much shorter than I am comfortable going without a tune or a stop for a speedometer fix. It is just easier to go with a tire that is only .60 shorter than stock compared to one that is nearing 2" shorter. There is also that issue of fender gap with a stock rideheight car. I do have some taste.

As for spring rates: I'm sure stiffer will be better for autocrossing but I'm not sure that those stiff of springs should be used with the d specs. I'm not sure they can handle that type of abuse considering the majority of aftermarket springs are much lower. If I intend to go that stiff I will be buying something more appropriate to dampen them like the KW or AST coilovers which can either be revalved or are already valved for that high of spring rates.

I doubt this car will see A6s on this budget unless someone is practically giving away them and their rims. Hopefully I will be landing this new job in january which should make things much easier financially than they currently are. Even then I am not sure I want to go that far with tires that barely last a season. I don't know, something to consider when that time comes. The other thing factoring in the long term is my desire to take this car to the local road course which is where I think I will end up.

I have talked with Sam Strano and he has talked me out of the torque arm and into replacing the UCA and mount instead. It ends up being cheaper to do and if it doesn't work on controlling the pinion angle change then ill get extreme with the torque arm.

Right now the plans are:
Strano front and rear bars
D specs (already purchased and installed)
Steeda Sport springs
Steeda hd mounts
Steeda competition UCA and UCA mount
Fays2 watts link
Split on tires between RE11 and the Star Specs (RE11 has better wider tire choices)
Some light weight 9" wheels

I'm still trying to sell stuff to but the fun toys but not having any luck so who knows what I will be getting over the course of next year assuming the budget stays the same. I'm still aiming for tires, rear sway and ford camber bolts for next season which keeps me in stock and the dunlips should allow me to run the street tire pax.

[ReverendDexter]

I wish I could give you some better input, but as I don't run SCCA, I just don't know.

The one thing that really jumps out at me is the cap of 265-width tires. When the smaller/lighter cars can run the same tire (and they will run them so long as they'll fit - NC Miatas are running 275s), you're just flat going to be at a disadvantage.

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter I wish I could give you some better input, but as I don't run SCCA, I just don't know. The one thing that really jumps out at me is the cap of 265-width tires. When the smaller/lighter cars can run the same tire (and they will run them so long as they'll fit - NC Miatas are running 275s), you're just flat going to be at a disadvantage.

I'm with you, sometimes I wish they would move the Mustang entirely to STU where it can take advantage of wider tires rather than banishing all Mustangs to mediocracy in STX on 265s. At one time 2WD vehicles were allowed 275s or 285s in STX but that was removed when STU came about. It may get a revamp now that cars like the Mustang that are sub 5L displacement are stuck in STX.

As for the miatas, I'm not sure how they can under the current rules. The STX rules say all 2wd vehicles cap at 265 and AWD to 245s. STR has different widths but they are smaller than STX and STU. I believe the miata is STR only now.

[ReverendDexter]

Oh, I just meant that they can fit 275s, not necessarily that they could do so legally for any particular class.

EDIT: I take that back...more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I'm misremembering what I read, and they were running 255s on a 17x9.

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter Oh, I just meant that they can fit 275s, not necessarily that they could do so legally for any particular class. EDIT: I take that back...more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I'm misremembering what I read, and they were running 255s on a 17x9.

I'm not sure what they can fit but I'm sure that they can get crazy. I believe a lot of the STR miatas are running the *cough*spec*cough* Toyo RA1 in 195 /xx/15 shaved which seems to be a "miracle" size for uber fast times on cars that can run them. I believe some of the STX civics even ran it even though they could run wider. That's part of the reason for the ST re-org.

Anyway, there isn't much in the way of power modifications I can do, full exhaust with high flow cats and a cai and tune pretty much peaks it. I would be lucky to hit 315 rwhp with that combo. That isn't all bad as the car could become more momentum based than point and shoot.

Granted it isn't as interesting to watch momentum cars. I do have a friend who swears that no RWD car needs a rear sway bar because they should use the throttle to rotate the car. Of course I don't think he could get my car to do that on the nationals pavement and tires would last about 3 events. I would rather have a momentum car that is fun to drive than a point and shoot that eats tires!

[Fast92Coupe]

Yokohama AD08s can be had in a 265/40-18, which would be decent for FS, STX, and appearance.

Even 'point and shoot' cars work better if you keep the momentum up.

Justin

[94racing]

Youre saying that with "whipping" the car around the corner its not as quick due to rear scrubbing and the umph that it takes to get the car moving to the same speed you already would have had exiting the corner right? Or is there another reason im missing?

And fast92 what tires do you guys run as spec in the openwheeler you have?

[Fast92Coupe]

Originally Posted by 94racing Youre saying that with "whipping" the car around the corner its not as quick due to rear scrubbing and the umph that it takes to get the car moving to the same speed you already would have had exiting the corner right? ?

Yep, the only exception I've seen is a 'pin turn' if you have a lot of grip and power, only if you can do it Ken Block style, and it still might not be as fast. It does look cool though.

Originally Posted by 94racing And fast92 what tires do you guys run as spec in the openwheeler you have?

Hoosier slicks, 8" wide front similar to R35 compound, 10" wide rear similar to R45. I typically run them 2 national race weekends (~250 miles), sometimes 3 but by the end of the 3rd weekend they are noticeably slower.

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by 94racing Youre saying that with "whipping" the car around the corner its not as quick due to rear scrubbing and the umph that it takes to get the car moving to the same speed you already would have had exiting the corner right? Or is there another reason im missing? And fast92 what tires do you guys run as spec in the openwheeler you have?

My preference is to have a balanced car as much as possible. It may not be 100% possible to balance out a Mustang with so little weight over the rear end, but by damnit, I'm going to try! I just don't like the idea of having to break traction in the rear to get the car to rotate, I don't want that in the slightest bit at all so the "turn wheel and mash throttle" doesn't appeal to me. Maybe I'd be better off in a Miata than a Mustang if I want that style of car, but I hate how Miatas look regardless of how they drive.

There are two turn and mash cars here locally, one is a Trans Am the other is a Camaro, both are CP cars and have insanely large tires, but there is no way either can say they save their tires because they literally turn the wheel then mash the pedal. It's cool to watch and they are very fast, but the amount of rubber and smoke they leave is just sickening. I can't support going through tires that often for something that is a hobby. If I could win money doing it (meaning if I was good ) then I could definitely see it being worth the investment to win, but I'm not so sticking to the momentum style FTW!

Anyway, I should clarify, one of my above posts I mention the spec STR tire being the Toyo RA1, it's actually the R1R (silly me!). Very large difference in tire, although many speculate the 195/whatever/15 is a different compound all together, but that's a whole different debate.

[94racing]

Originally Posted by Whiskey11 My preference is to have a balanced car as much as possible. It may not be 100% possible to balance out a Mustang with so little weight over the rear end, but by damnit, I'm going to try! I just don't like the idea of having to break traction in the rear to get the car to rotate, I don't want that in the slightest bit at all so the "turn wheel and mash throttle" doesn't appeal to me. Maybe I'd be better off in a Miata than a Mustang if I want that style of car, but I hate how Miatas look regardless of how they drive. There are two turn and mash cars here locally, one is a Trans Am the other is a Camaro, both are CP cars and have insanely large tires, but there is no way either can say they save their tires because they literally turn the wheel then mash the pedal. It's cool to watch and they are very fast, but the amount of rubber and smoke they leave is just sickening. I can't support going through tires that often for something that is a hobby. If I could win money doing it (meaning if I was good ) then I could definitely see it being worth the investment to win, but I'm not so sticking to the momentum style FTW! Anyway, I should clarify, one of my above posts I mention the spec STR tire being the Toyo RA1, it's actually the R1R (silly me!). Very large difference in tire, although many speculate the 195/whatever/15 is a different compound all together, but that's a whole different debate.

We have ours close to 52%F/48%R for the weight difference in our car so its more than possible if you wanted to go to extremes. Im curious how much weight we will lose with the boss motor. And wiring as compared to the 3v parts.

Originally Posted by Fast92Coupe Yep, the only exception I've seen is a 'pin turn' if you have a lot of grip and power, only if you can do it Ken Block style, and it still might not be as fast. It does look cool though. Hoosier slicks, 8" wide front similar to R35 compound, 10" wide rear similar to R45. I typically run them 2 national race weekends (~250 miles), sometimes 3 but by the end of the 3rd weekend they are noticeably slower.

Awsome we dont run close to that many miles and ours if we did full weekends instead of cycling them out they would last about 3 weekends.

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by 94racing We have ours close to 52%F/48%R for the weight difference in our car so its more than possible if you wanted to go to extremes. Im curious how much weight we will lose with the boss motor. And wiring as compared to the 3v parts.

Not sure I can achieve that kind of weight ratio with STX or ESP rules. When I said balanced I meant handling wise balanced with probably a touch of understeer since it's still a DD.

Speaking of weight, if you stripped out your guy's S197 down to the bare minimums, how light can this chassis get? It really does intrigue me as it seems a lot of the racing organizations are really penalizing the S197 chassis and keeping the race weights above 3500 lbs. I think it was the Grand Am races that had the GT's at 3750 and the 2011+ V6's at like 3700. That's pretty steep considering the competition is much less than that!

[ReverendDexter]

Originally Posted by Whiskey11 a lot of the racing organizations are really penalizing the S197 chassis and keeping the race weights above 3500 lbs. I think it was the Grand Am races that had the GT's at 3750 and the 2011+ V6's at like 3700. That's pretty steep considering the competition is much less than that!

Yeah, it really speaks volumes as to the supposed inferiority of the Mustang, doesn't it?

[Whiskey11]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter Yeah, it really speaks volumes as to the supposed inferiority of the Mustang, doesn't it?

Yes it does. I'm not sure entirely what the bias is or if it is a power/weight issue or what, but I have a feeling that a stripped out Mustang, especially the new ones, would be an absolute menace and beast on a track. Thankfully the SCCA has pretty much dictated 2 classes for the modern S197 to participate in and not really any others. That is why I wouldn't mind breaking out of the mold and running in STX. Even if it means not being competitive nationally, it's different and who knows, maybe it turns out to be half way decent when I become a better driver