[ajzride]

Okay, I was able to dump the video I shot into garageband and clean it up by filtering some of the whining and wind noise out. So now I think I have a clip that shows the knocking pretty good. In fact it is easier to hear in the video than in real life now. The knocking is definitely not something rubbing, because it is no erratic. Between you guys and my dad, I've convinced that weak springs are the mostly likely cause. Until three days ago, I had no idea the terrible things that weak valve springs could cause. Looks like changing them head on will not be too hard, and much easier than changing the cam, so that is the direction I am going in.

Comp cams seems to sell these springs in a kit with my cam:

COMP Cams 942-16 - COMP Cams Valve Springs - Overview - SummitRacing.com

So unless someone has a better recommendation, I will probably pick some up this week.

Oh yea, almost forgot the video:

YouTube - 351w knocking possible valve float

YouTube - 351w knocking possible valve float

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by ajzride ...Between you guys and my dad, ...

LOL... and Summit "Valve springs are one of the most critical and overlooked components in your engine. They must be matched to your cam in order for the engine to reach its full potential. It does absolutely no good to install a cam that will perform up to 8,000 rpm if you do not have the correct springs. Use the only valve springs that will give the recommended spring pressure with the valve both on the seat and at maximum lift."

[ajzride]

So... You want to change your valve springs? Okay thats cool. Whats that you say, you want to change them with the heads on the motor? Umm, err... umm... Are you a child rapist doing hard time? Because that is the only type person I recommend doing what I did this weekend.

By the way, sorry for not having more pictures, it was hard to get good shots of stuff because of the lighting and angles, besides, I was in a really really bad mood.

First off, lets start with tools. DO NOT, and repeat, DO NOT get a spring compressor that looks something like this:



Because the first time you go to compress a new spring to put it on, this little part here will break:



Which will let these little arms fly open:



Throwing a 300psi spring into your forearm as it uncompresses, which might lead to the X-ray room.

Luckily for me nothing was broken, but it jacked up some nerves, and I still can't feel my right thumb.

I suggest you get one that looks more like this:



However don't get the piece of $h1t one that Autozone rents out, find a good one. The one pictured above kept falling apart on me cause it was put together with clips instead of bolts.

Last piece of advice, if you have spring retainers that are two-part (inner and outer) like this:



find a washer that has a hole just big enough for the valve stem keepers to slide through, but not the inner retainer. Because the spring compressor is going to sit on the outer edge of the outer retainer and compress the spring, but the inner retainer will stay locked around the keepers, and you will be stuck trying to hold the valve stem up (with a pair of needle nose pliers) and pry the inner retainer off the keepers, all with the spring compressor in the way. Putting a washer between the spring compressor and the retainer will force the inner retainer to drop with the spring.

So all told for a project that I though was going to take me about 3 hours, I spent seven hours on the project plus two hours getting x-rays.

To be honest though, if I had a decent spring compressor, and new the trick of using a washer, I probably could have done it in three hours.

So what is the final equation?

7 Hours Labor + 2 Hours X-Rays + 70% of remaining sanity + 21% health = 100

100 what? I don't know its a unit-less number kinda like a reynolds number. I can tell you anything over 60 = something to avoid.

[ajzride]

Oh, I'm sorry, you don't care about how hard it is to change them, you found this page on google because you are having the same engine knock I am, and you just want to know if the valve springs fixed the problem. Well, I have great news for you, you don't have to change your valve springs, because they have nothing to do with that knock.

Thats right, 9 hours of my saturday and most of my sanity, and I didn't solve a damn thing.

And unfortunately, since it took so long, I didn't get to pull the oil pan and see if I could find anything down there either.

Even more unfortunate, I have to work the next two weekends, so unless I can slide out of the office on a friday, it will be May 21st before I get to pull the oil pan

[ajzride]

I NEED YOUR HELP MM!!!!

I'm trying to compile a list of things that could be causing this knock along with the odds of that being the problem, followed by a little reasoning for why it is likely or not likely. I have three weeks to let this eat at me before I can do anything about it, so I'm sure the list will keep growing.

Before the list, a recap of the situation:

Freshly boiled and bored block, was not decked.
Cranked turned 10/10
Stock Crank and rods
Stock heads, valves lapped by hand
Complete rebuild kit including flat top hypertonic pistons and all bearings/seals
Pistons pushed onto wrist-pins at machine shop
New Cam, lifters, pushrods, valve springs, timing gears

The knock is not present at idle, it comes in around 1200 - 1500 RPM.
The knock is not steady, it is erratic
The knock is loudest from under the car, near the #4/#8 pistons or the flywheel.

1. Spun Rod/Main Bearing (10:1%)
a. The noise definitely sounds like a bottom end noise, and at first listen, every one says Rod, but if you listen close, the knock is very erratic, and I think a rod would have a much more rhythmic pattern. Additionally, pulling plug wires one at a time does not lessen the intensity or change the pattern of the knock, which should have an effect on a rod.
2. Low oil pressure (5:1%)
a. I have no oil pressure gauge, so I have no idea what it is running at. I plan to pipe in a mechanical gauge when I get under the car to drop the oil pan. Also, since they didn’t have a new oil filter when I changed my oil two weeks ago, I just left the one I had on there (it only had about 45 minutes to an hour of run time on it, and less than 100 yards. yes yards not miles.) If something has plugged that filter, I could have low oil pressure, I’ve heard that can cause a knock, but I’ve yet to see video evidence of that
3. Loose Wrist Pin (100:1)
a. This is more likely to make an erratic noise than a rod, but I have new pistons, and the rods were pressed in by a machine shop, so low probability of failure there.
4. Piston slap (100:1)
a. The pistons were fitted at the machine shop
5. Loose flywheel or pressure plate (5:1)
a. I did this one myself, so that automatically increases chances of something getting screwed up. Also the noise is loudest on the bottom back of half of the engine, closest to the flywheel.

This is a link to the noise, same link as above, it's not changed (knocking starts about 20 seconds in):

YouTube - 351w knocking possible valve float

YouTube - 351w knocking possible valve float

Please help MM!!

[Gregski]

I just love your write ups, you could be writing about the internals of an engine and I would find it interesting, oh wait, wait a minute... lol

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by ajzride Thats right, 9 hours of my saturday and most of my sanity, and I didn't solve a damn thing.

actually, technically, yeah you did, you solved for X (Rays) LOL

7 Hours Labor + 2 Hours X-Rays + 70% of remaining sanity + 21% health = 100

[ajzride]

Originally Posted by Gregski actually, technically, yeah you did, you solved for X (Rays) LOL 7 Hours Labor + 2 Hours X-Rays + 70% of remaining sanity + 21% health = 100

YouTube - Lame Joke Drums - Rimshot (For use in forums)

YouTube - Lame Joke Drums - Rimshot (For use in forums)

No no no.... I'm just kidding.... we both deserve rim shots for our forum humor.

[MustangOne]

In this case, Pulling the motor is the best choice.

Have to open the motor up and go through the rods and crank.

Look at all the torques and bearings.

[ajzride]

Originally Posted by MustangOne In this case, Pulling the motor is the best choice. Have to open the motor up and go through the rods and crank. Look at all the torques and bearings.

Given the difficulty of pulling the motor with those headers using just a cherry picker by myself, coupled with the wrath of my wife who I've been promising that this car is almost done for a month now, I'm trying to avoid that. My current plan is:

1. When I drop the oil pan to change the gasket
a. Check for metal shavings, there were none last time I changed the oil, less than 20 minutes of run time ago.
b. Remove each main/rod cap one at a time to inspect the journals and bearings then retorque.
c. If I don't find anything suspecious there, Then I will check the flywheel/pressure plate.
2. Re-install oil pan, new filter and oil.
3. If that doesn't turn anything up, then I will be hooking up an oil pressure gauge (which I will actually be doing regardless)
4. If it is none of those, then I can't think of anything else other than a wrist pin or pistion, and it will be time to yank the motor.

Don't get me wrong, I think your advice is the best way to go, and if my wife wasn't already mad as hornet at me over this car, I probably would rip it on out. But if she sees me ripping the motor out, she is going to know something is very wrong, and I'll have hell to pay. She honestly had no idea what she was getting into when she let me buy this car :-D

[Gregski]

Try these:

Honey you look so pretty!

I like your hair!

Have you lost weight?!

Buy her flowers [but I already spent all this money on the car] buy her flowers [but she doesn't like flowers] buy her flowers [but she doesn't like it when I spend money on her [buy her flowers] but... BUY HER SOME FLOWERS GOD DAMN IT, look man I've owned 7 motorcycles spread across my [wife's] garage BUY HER SOME FLOWERS !

[Gregski]

on a serious note, and I am trying to help you man, cause I really want you to succeed, what if you drop that oil pan like you are hell bent to do, and then remove all the spark plugs, disconnect the coil cable, and have your honey bunny turn the engine over using the starter while you lay under the car (ok sorta to the side) when it is up on jack stands and out of gear, and watch the turning assembly go round and round, does the noise happen even when the engine is spun by the starter? I know in the video it only does it when reved up, but if it bearings it should make some sorta noise even when turning over no?

oh, put a spit cup ie oil drain container under the oil pump if you decide to do this as some oil will drop under the car

[ajzride]

Originally Posted by Gregski Try these: Buy her flowers [but I already spent all this money on the car] buy her flowers [but she doesn't like flowers] buy her flowers [but she doesn't like it when I spend money on her [buy her flowers] but... BUY HER SOME FLOWERS GOD DAMN IT, look man I've owned 7 motorcycles spread across my [wife's] garage BUY HER SOME FLOWERS !

I made the mistake of spoiling my wife with flowers early in the marriage. Now she just expects them to show up two or three times a month, I get in the dog house if I don't buy them, not out of the dog house if I do.

Off topic, that's a great life lesson for you kids out there. DON"T BUY FlOWERS UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE DOG HOUSE!!!! just kidding... no serious....

I have to buy shiney things to get out the dog house these days

My five year anniversary is next week, I'll have to go big time to buy myself some more WAF points. I was going to take her to Hawaii, but she is burning all of her vacation to go back home (Vietnam), so I'm back to shiney things. I need to make my way over to the jewlers afterwork today.

[ajzride]

The reason I am hell bent on pulling the oil pan is because I have to do it anyway. I let the motor sit too long with no oil after I installed the rear main seal, and it is leaking. Since I am ripping the underside of the front end apart to do the rack and pinion conversion, it be will rather simple to pull the oil pan while I am there. Also gonna put in a nice 1-piece oil pan gakset.

Turning the motor over with the starter while the pan is off is in the playbook if I don't find something obvious like a spun bearing or loose cap.

[ajzride]

Okay, So I worked till 2AM every morning this week to get ahead so that I could sneak out today and play with the car, because waiting another week and half would have killed me.

First thing to do was get it as far up in the air as I could, so that it would be easier to crawl up under.



Thats the best I can do without a lift

The first part to come out was the tubular brace that runs from frame rail to frame rail, under the oilpan. Sorry guys, I forgot to take pictures of it, but its pretty easy to find, and only two bolts to remove ( so even Gregski can attempt this ). While it is only two bolts, it is two very big bolts (15/16) and they have been in the car for 46 years, it did take an impact wrench to get them out.

The next part to come loose was the Power Steering Ram, which attaches to the frame between the front drivers wheel and the front drivers door. Mine is on a custom drop bracket, that was required to clear the headers.



After breaking the hydraulic ram loose, I took out both of the tie rods. Remove the cotter pin and castle nut, then hammer them apart with a tie rod puller (rented from autozone)



Believe it or not, we are almost there. After dropping the tie rods, there are two pitman arms to pull, one on the steering box:



And one on the passenger side:



Pull both of them off with a pitman arm puller (rented from autozone)



The whole thing drops to the ground.



It really was that easy, only 2 bolts, 2 pitmans, and 2 tie rods hold the entire steering assembly into the car. All together it took me less than 45 minutes to remove everything. I gotta be honest, I'm a little freaked out how few part it was. Seems like something as complex as the steering system should have a little more to it.

[ajzride]

While I have the steering out, I'm definitely going to pull the oil pan, and investigate my knock, I mean, it's all I've talked about for two weeks.

As soon as I pulled the oil pan, I got a really sick feeling, looks like the kiss of death right off the bat:



Yea, that a whole lotta metal in there.

No time to sit and cry, gotta find out what caused this. I knew it sounded like it was coming from the back of the engine, so I went straight to numbers 4 and 8 rods. (sorry for the video quality, it is hard to work and oily engine with one hand, and shoot video with the other. However, you can hear what is going on very well)

YouTube - 351w loose rod bearing

YouTube - 351w loose rod bearing

Pulling the #4 rod cap didn't make my day go any better either:



Just for reference, here it is up against #6, which is in good shape:



Things got even worse (yes they can get worse) when I pulled #8 cap and got a good look at the crank journal:



That ridge in the crank is about as thick as a dime.

Looks like AJ needs a new crank

[ajzride]

If you remember from the start of this thread (I know that was a long time ago) I started the motor before I bought a car, before I even knew I was getting a mustang, in other words, before I came around here.

Perhaps if I had already been here, someone could have stopped this, because here is how the story goes.

I'm happy as a clam driving home from the machine shop with my freshly bored block and beautifully turned crank, when my wife calls and tells me she has a dead battery. Swing by to pick here up, pull the battery, and take it back to the dealership for a free replacement (Yay )

Things go great, takes only a few minutes, ham fisted dealer tech throws battery in back of truck, lets go put the new battery in wifey's car.

When I get back to my wife's car to put the battery in, I realize what has happened, ham fisted dealer tech sat the battery down on the corner of a box, and the batter has turned over, spilling battery acid in the back of the truck. Even worse, a spot about the size of a dime, was sitting and foaming on my beautiful new crank journal (guess which journal...) I quickly wiped the acid off, and everything looked pretty good, just a little hazy.

The next morning, when I went to start putting my motor back together, I took a little buffing compound and polished up the crank journal. Everything looked really good, and it was nice and smooth, so I figured no harm no foul. I guess that was not true. The acid must have weakened the metal in that journal, because the rod bearings ate up, after less than 2 hours of run time on the motor.

So the motor is coming out, I 'll have to rip it apart, clean it obsessively to get any trace of shavings out, and then I'll have to order a crank for it. I'm hoping the cylinder walls are in good shape and I can get by with just a good honing at most. (hopefully not even that )

[ajzride]

Since I'm ordering a new crank anyway, what are my options as far a stroker goes? I don't really want to bore anymore (I'm at 30 over) so I think the most I can go is 408 right? Also, can I get any significant gains in stroke without changing the rods and pistons, or am I at my length/stroke ratio limit already?

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by ajzride The first part to come out was the tubular brace that runs from frame rail to frame rail, under the oilpan... but its pretty easy to find, and only two bolts to remove ( so even Gregski can attempt this ).

Touche!

Originally Posted by ajzride The next part to come loose was the Power Steering Ram, After breaking the hydraulic ram loose, I took out both of the tie rods.

The steering stuff has to come out to drop the oil pan, cause on my '68 all you have to do is remove the cross member [sorry] "tubular brace that runs from frame rail to frame rail"

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by ajzride the batter has turned over, spilling battery acid in the back of the truck. Even worse, a spot about the size of a dime, was sitting and foaming on my beautiful new crank journal (guess which journal...) I quickly wiped the acid off, and everything looked pretty good, just a little hazy.

Well I was gonna open up with a "Knock, Knock" Joke, but you are breaking my heart man, that sucks ballz. Wow I had no idea that could happen!