[supermachone]

has anyone juice fasted?

i did for 48 hours, then i ate breakfast lunch and dinner, and now im gonna fast again (try to increase the hours i can go in between eating)

i need to take control of my appetite and work on my metabolism, everytime i get hungry i just want to stuff my face

and im really trying to break myself of bad habbits too, have a stronger will power, and detoxify my body

and not to mention lose some weight, but thats not really the number one goal here

[PiggySmallz]

Originally Posted by supermachone has anyone juice fasted? i did for 48 hours, then i ate breakfast lunch and dinner, and now im gonna fast again (try to increase the hours i can go in between eating) i need to take control of my appetite and work on my metabolism, everytime i get hungry i just want to stuff my face and im really trying to break myself of bad habbits too, have a stronger will power, and detoxify my body and not to mention lose some weight, but thats not really the number one goal here

nope probably never would either. What kind of juice is it?

Most juices don't contain the proper amounts of calories, carbohydrates, proteins, fats, and micro nutrients to keep your body going. The best way to control appetite is by eating 6 smaller meals a day. The idea is that you keep your metabolism at a faster pace, but you are still only taking less calories than you burn all day. A caloric defecit = fat burning and weight loss. By starving yourself, your metabolism actually slows down. Then when you do eat, you gain all the weight back at a faster rate.

I know when I want cookies or cakes, once or twice a month I'll have it. The other times I just smell it and I no longer want to eat it. I know it can be more difficult during holiday times though. However, it is important even when being on a strict diet, that you do allow yourself to have that piece of cake or those cookies now and then. It's good for your sanity.

If you are not looking to shed weight then why are juice dieting? To detox?

[carney]

Originally Posted by PiggySmallz what are you eating? are you actually counting or just estimating? Do you take protein shakes? There are ways for you to add calories without constantly stuffing yourself. Are you eating 5-6 meals a day every 2.5-3 hours?

Im just estimating, and im getting about 4 meals a day. Morning i have a bagel w/ cream cheese and juice or water , school i have poptarts early in the day w/ chocolate milk, then for lunch ham and cheese on dinner roll with banana and chips and a Gatorade. For dinner, its whatever the parents cook, so usually a pasta or meat, with water and occasionally a glass of soda.

[PiggySmallz]

Originally Posted by rcarney Im just estimating, and im getting about 4 meals a day. Morning i have a bagel w/ cream cheese and juice or water , school i have poptarts early in the day w/ chocolate milk, then for lunch ham and cheese on dinner roll with banana and chips and a Gatorade. For dinner, its whatever the parents cook, so usually a pasta or meat, with water and occasionally a glass of soda.

There's your problem. You're not eating enough and you're not eating the right foods. Your breakfast should be 3 or 4 eggs, a bowl of oatmeal (or cereal high in fiber/protein). Poptarts are ok. I know some guys who take them pre-workout, but otherwise they aren't good for you. They are simple carbs and turn to pure fat. Low in protein and macro-nutrients to build muscle. Milk is good for you with the calcium the fat content is high, but if you're skinny it's not a big deal.

Milk is a casein protein which is good when you won't be able to eat for awhile. Casein gels up in your stomach and digests a lot slower than a whey. Ham is fattening as is cheese. Cheese is another dairy product with casein but it's LOADED with fats. Not good fats either. Pasta's can be good for you as well as meat. Chicken and Salmon are the best for protein intake. I get skinless boneless chicken breasts. High in protein low in fat/calories. Soda isn't too good for you either. High in sugars.

If you're serious about gaining weight you're going to need to add 2 more meals to your day. Space them out about 2.5-3 hours apart. If you'd like I can help you put together a quick meal plan. Here is an excerpt from a great article about college body building I read a week or so ago.

"As for eating, I have heard so many ‘BS’ excuses about how guys in college can’t eat right, or they are “poor college students” and can’t buy good bodybuilding food, or they take too many classes and just don’t have time to cook. I could go on. I would say that eating complaints are my biggest pet peeve, and I will proceed to debunk all of these “myths.” First, the “poor college student” excuse is just that, an excuse. Get a part-time job or, if you must, ask mom and dad for $50/week for food. If both don’t work out, you’re out of luck and might want to enter a profession such as male stripping or gay for pay… But really, one of those should work out. Here’s what you purchase, hopefully at a Costco or similar store: industrial bag of rice, eggs, giant jug of olive oil (or similar oil), and find the best deal on beef or chicken and stock up. I guarantee you will be able to afford those food selections. I found these foods while reading Justin Harris’ Q&A one time when a similar question was asked, went to the store, and viola! It worked. Next, there is no college student on the planet that is too busy to cook food, period. If you can find time to watch TV during the day, you can cook. This is just an excuse to be lazy and not wake up early to make your food. If you are honestly trying to claim this, you should probably reevaluate your bodybuilding goals because it will only get harder when you have a job in the “real” world and, potentially, a family with kids. My take on attaining the proper food is that it is much simpler than most make it out to be. You all have to remember that if you are in this situation, and money is tight, you are not going to have the luxury of making great tasting food. You simply need to make carbs, protein, and fat, put ‘em together, and eat + repeat. It’s that simple.

To conclude, here’s the one thing that separates a successful college bodybuilder from one who is not: strength of mind. If you are mentally tough, you’ll make it, and if not, you will teeter-totter back and forth, really never coming close to what you believe you can achieve. Ultimately, bodybuilding on any level, but especially during college with all the added stressors, resonates with the quote, “If you can believe it, the mind can achieve it,” so aptly stated by Ronnie Lott. If you can see your dream physique, your mind is fundamentally what will hold you back or propel you forward. The choice is in your hands."

The Pursuit of Excellence for College Bodybuilders | Brotherhood of Iron

[carney]

dude, piggy, you're so much help. If you could give me a loose meal plan that would be amazing. and for my meal spacing, Cause i eat breakfast like 6:30-7, then i have a free pd at school 9 where i can eat, then my lunch can range from 10:30-12:15, and i cant eat at 2-3 when i get done school(im still in high school if you haven't noticed), and then the rest of my night is pretty much free. But if you could do me a little meal plan that would be amazing dude. I really appreciate the help

[PiggySmallz]

Originally Posted by rcarney dude, piggy, you're so much help. If you could give me a loose meal plan that would be amazing. and for my meal spacing, Cause i eat breakfast like 6:30-7, then i have a free pd at school 9 where i can eat, then my lunch can range from 10:30-12:15, and i cant eat at 2-3 when i get done school(im still in high school if you haven't noticed), and then the rest of my night is pretty much free. But if you could do me a little meal plan that would be amazing dude. I really appreciate the help

No problem man. You don't even need to eat whole foods, pack a protein shake and drink it in class haha. I'll give you a pretty quick meal plan with about 3500 calories a day tomorrow as soon as I get home. It's going to be difficult at first, but after a week or so, your metabolism adjusts and you actually crave the food. You also don't even need to count calories after awhile, because you just know at that point exactly what you're eating. I'll post up a pretty lengthy post tomorrow. I'm sure it could help a lot of other people on here as well. Shit, even I need to get back on a solid routine and meal plan lol

[N29468]

Originally Posted by PiggySmallz No problem man. You don't even need to eat whole foods, pack a protein shake and drink it in class haha. I'll give you a pretty quick meal plan with about 3500 calories a day tomorrow as soon as I get home. It's going to be difficult at first, but after a week or so, your metabolism adjusts and you actually crave the food. You also don't even need to count calories after awhile, because you just know at that point exactly what you're eating. I'll post up a pretty lengthy post tomorrow. I'm sure it could help a lot of other people on here as well. Shit, even I need to get back on a solid routine and meal plan lol

+1 This will be helpful!

[PiggySmallz]

For all of you guys who are hard gainers or say you can't gain the muscle mass you want, this is for you. I used to think the same thing, "my genetics suck" or "i'm a hard gainer, I can't gain weight." I'd be in the gym when I was 18-19 getting discouraged after months or working out, changing up routines and gaining a mere 10 lbs. I graduated high school at 5'7-5'8 weighing a whopping 140 lbs LOL. I needed to gain weight because 1.) I looked sickly and 2.) I needed it to compete on a division 1 baseball team.

After my first 4-5 months in the gym I almost gave up. I gained 10 pounds like I said and still looked frail and sickly haha. I began changing my workouts up with little difference. In fact, with those 10 lbs I didn't even look more defined or muscular, just bigger. It was probably water weight from the NO-Xplode and creatine monohydrate I was taking. There was another one of my problems, I thought taking supplements would make me big, like those magazine ads. Big mistake. I did some research; a lot actually. I learned that supplements are exactly that; a supplement. They are made to supplement your diet, NOT replace it. Here are my findings in my hours upon hours of research and reading.

There is no cookie cutter diet out there that if you follow it completely, will make you look jacked and shredded. Everyone is different, experimentation is extremely important for you to find what works for you!! First we need to be able to understand a few things about muscles what creates them and how to maintain them:

Muscles are made up of proteins. Protein is actually made from a bunch of amino acids (the building blocks of life). I'm not going to go completely in depth on it as this post would be over a page long lol. If you'd like to read up on it, this is a great article:
Bodybuilding.com - Protein Breakdown: Learn Which Type Is Best For Your Goals! - Big Cat

We also need to understand that calories are a measurement of energy in the body. More specifically it has something to do with how much energy it takes to change the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree Celsius. I can't remember where I read that, so take it with a grain of salt lol. It's not important anyway. The amount of calories we take in from food a day directly reflects how we look. If we take in less than we use each day, we will lose weight, If we take in more we gain weight, If we take in the same amount we don't gain or lose weight.

We can break calories down more specifically as well into fats, carbohydrates and protein. I haven't explained the carbohydrates yet so I'll do that briefly now, before continuing. Carbohydrates are made up of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. They are sugars, starches and fiber. Carbs are converted to energy in the body OR are stored in fat cells to be used later.

When creating a diet, you need to figure out what your goals are in terms of bulking, maintaining, or losing. Since this is geared more towards the bulking side I'll stick to that. If you want to shed weight later or maintain, cut back on the calories or serving sizes. Now how do you go about figuring out how much you need and how much you use?! Here is a pretty good calculation I got from the Insanity nutrition guide when I looked at it:

For Women: 655 + (4.35 x weight in pounds) + (4.7 x height in inches) - (4.7 x age in years)

For Men: 65 + (6.23 x weight in pounds) + (12.7 x height in inches) - (6.8 x age in years)

Currently I am 160 lbs, 69-70" and 23 years old. I use about 1782 calories to maintain my weight. However you still need to factor in your exercise levels, so you would multiply it by the number associated with the level of activity below:

1.2 = Little to No Exercise
1.375 = Light Exercise (1-3 days a week)
1.55 = Moderate Exercise (3-5 days a week)
1.7 = Hard Exercise (6-7 days a week)
1.9 = Hard Daily Exercise of Physical Job

When working out I life 4 days a week and do 2 days of dedicated HIIT cardio so I multiply my 1782 calories by 1.7 and get 3029 calories. Therefore, if I want to put on weight, I need to eat more than that. I started out eating 3300 calories finding I would put on about 4-5 pounds a month that way. Then I eventually bumped it to 3500-3600 calories and gained about 7-8 lbs a month. I actually ate 4000-4200 calories for a month but put on too much fat. I felt I gained better around 3500-3600. This is why I said you need to experiment and see what works best for you.

Now how did I get those calories? Each gram of protein = 4 calories, Each gram of carbohydrates = 4 calories and Each gram of fat = 7 calories. I split my meals up pretty evenly throughout the day. I did my best to get my meals spaced out evenly about 2.5-3 hours apart. I always ate 5-6 meals a day. 7 when I was eating closer to 4000 calories lol.

When it comes to protein they say 1.5 grams per pound is what you need to build muscle. I use about 1.75. I weigh 160 right now so multiplying that by 1.75 = 280 grams of protein. If you feel 1.5 isn't enough bump it to 2 grams per pound. Unused protein in your digestive system is going to produce some disgustingly foul smelling gas though so be prepared...or at least prepare those around you.

I don't really follow those 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat splits. In fact I never try to get exactly 3500 calories just get as close as I can. Your body can't do math it just takes in what it needs. If you grow at the right rate you're eating properly. If you are putting on too much fat, cut out some fats and replace it with whole wheat carbs. I try to do 1.75 grams of protein but you can also do 2 grams like I said. Fat should be about .5 grams per pound minimum but no more than 1 gram. I also keep that around .75 and the rest is all carbs. If you feel like you are putting on too much fat, cut your fat intake and increase your carbs. 280 grams of protein 120 grams of fat and 385 grams of carbs = 3500 calories. This is a good breakup imo.

5 of those meals should contain 500-550 calories each. Your 6th meal should be your post workout meal which IMO and my experience is important. I eat my face off and use about 750-1000 calories for that one meal. I love to eat especially after a good workout. It helps replenish all of the broken down muscles and replaces all of the used up nutrients and amino acids from the workout.

Finally here is a 6 meal breakdown with 2 choices of meals
Breakfast
Berry Protein Smoothie
1.5 scoops of protein powder (I use optimum 100% whey)
1/2 cup fresh OR frozen berries (I prefer strawberries and blue berries)
1 cup skim, soy, rice or almond milk + some ice
1/2 a medium banana
1 tbsp. all natural peanut butter

~500 calories
~36 grams protein
~36 grams of carbs
~3.5 grams of fiber
~28 grams of fat

Cereal
1.5 cups high protein cereal (Kashi Go Lean)
2 tbsp. Flax seeds
1 cup skim milk
1 cup sliced bananas

~500 calories
~35 grams of protein
~60 grams of carbs
~8 grams of fat
~16 grams of fiber

Meal 2
Turkey BLT
2 slices whole wheat bread
2 oz. sliced deli turkey
3 slices turkey bacon
sliced tomato
lettuce
1 tbsp. light mayonnaise
1 fresh pear as a side

~500 calories
~20 grams of protein
~50 grams of carbs
~10 grams of fat
~8-9 grams of fiber

Protein/Nutrition Bar
I eat metrx big 100 colossal bars in brownie flavor
Large Naval Orange or Medium Banana

~490 calories
~32 grams of protein
~40 grams of carbs
~16 grams of fat
~3 grams of fiber

Meal 3
Sushi
1 tuna or salmon roll (I'd usually eat more than this...2-3 rolls) with brown rice if possible
Side Salad of mixed greens
2 tbsp. of asian ginger dressing
1 cup miso soup

~500-850 calories (1-3 rolls)
~33-45 grams of protein (1-3 rolls)
~65-70 grams of carbohydrate
~18-22 grams of fat
~7 grams of fiber

Chicken Ranch Wrap
6 inch whole grain tortilla
4 oz. grilled chicken breast
sliced tomato
lettuce
sliced red bell pepper
celery sticks
1 tbsp reduced fat ranch dressing
1/3 small avocado
sliced apple side

~500 calories
~38 grams of protein
~42 grams of carbohydrates
~12 grams of fat
~7 grams of fiber

Meal 4
Cold Cut Platter
3 oz. deli style turkey
2 oz. ham sliced
1 oz. reduced fat swiss cheese (or other reduced fat cheese)
Sliced Tomato
Whole-Grain crackers
1 cup fresh green or purple grapes

~550 calories
~33 grams protein
~28 grams of carbs
~15 grams of fat
~5 grams of fiber

Chicken and Salad
4 oz. skinless chicken breast
Mixed greens
1 tsp. Olive Oil
Lemon Juice
1 sliced granny smith apple
1 baked potato (with skin)topped with reduced fat shredded cheese
Eat chicken breast, top mixed greens with olive oil and lemon juice. Apple and potato are sides

~550 calories
~45 grams protein
~45 grams carbohydrate
~15 grams fat
~6 grams fiber

Meal 5
Steak with Broccoli
6 oz. flank steak, filet mignon, or sirloin
Olive Oil
Season salt and pepper flakes for taste
1 small baked potato
Dijon Mustard
1 cup steamed broccoli
Lemon Juice for broccoli
1 cup fat free pudding or 1 cup of skim milk

~530-540 calories
~45 grams of protein
~40 grams of carbohydrate
~14 grams of fat
~9 grams of fiber

Salmon with Brown Rice or Whole wheat pasta
6-8 oz. Grilled Salmon brushed with terriyaki sauce
use 1tbsp of terriyaki. 1.5 if you want more taste
2/3 Brown Rice side or 2/3 cup whole wheat pasta

Not 100% sure about nutrition facts but this is my best guess:
~560-580 calories
~46 grams of protein
~38 grams of carbs
~12 grams of fat
~6 grams of fiber


For meal 6 you can use any of the above of you can use a protein shake with a scoop and a half protein, tbsp natural peanut butter, and 1/3 cup of raw oats. Need more calories? add 1 tbsp of extra virgin olive oil. You don't need to follow these recipes to a tee. I never did I always added and subtracted where I saw fit to increase or decrease from carbs fat and proteins. I'm not a personal trainer, nor do I claim this to be the only guide you should read. There are so many other great articles out there. The more you read the more you'll learn. I can post some pictures if it's necessary. Before, Bulk/Leaning, and current. I'm too lazy right now though, this took me a long time to write lol


EDIT: Completely forgot to list this: http://www.fitday.com/
The website is basically a log where you enter what you eat and it can track your calories, carbs, fats, proteins, ect. It has a lot of foods already listed and those that aren't listed you can enter yourself. No need to carry around a journal or calculator lol. Just access the site from your phone or computer and enter in your meals. It will keep track for you.

[N29468]

Nice write-up man! Very informative and helpful. Thanks for posting. I think you burned at least a few hundred calories writing this .

[PiggySmallz]

Originally Posted by N29468 Nice write-up man! Very informative and helpful. Thanks for posting. I think you burned at least a few hundred calories writing this .

Thanks. Glad you found it useful. It definitely took me some time to get it all written out lol. If I get around to it I'll add a couple pictures, to show progress from when I looked anorexic to where I'm at comfortably now.

[carney]

wow, thats was a mega post. Really informative though thanks for all the help dude.

[PiggySmallz]

Originally Posted by rcarney wow, thats was a mega post. Really informative though thanks for all the help dude.

no problem. You don't need to follow those meals exactly either. They are just there as a small guide line. Egg whites, grilled skinless boneless chicken, salmon, some red meats, ect. are all good for you. Just need to make sure the chicken and red meat are leaner cuts. You can alter your diet however you need. Also be sure to be drinking a lot of water. Your body is made up of mostly water and you need to keep hydrated when working out. I'd always have a full water bottle...and I'd always have a full bladder too lol

[carney]

Yeah i think I'm going to pick up some chicken, rice, and oil and make myself a really big platter of chicken and rice. Then I'll just keep it in the fridge and take it for my in between breakfast and lunch, and lunch and dinner meal, and any time i have a craving for some food.

[PiggySmallz]

Originally Posted by rcarney Yeah i think I'm going to pick up some chicken, rice, and oil and make myself a really big platter of chicken and rice. Then I'll just keep it in the fridge and take it for my in between breakfast and lunch, and lunch and dinner meal, and any time i have a craving for some food.

thats exactly what I do. With a george forman grill or any indoor grill it would only take about 4 minutes to make each chicken breast. Chicken is cheap too, you can get it for about $1-$2 a lbs. Breasts and thighs have a lot more fat on them especially with skin. Fitday can calculate all of that, you just need to know how many ounces you are eating. Frozen veggies are good too. I get the plain ones and microwave them for 5 minutes. No sauces or anything but they have a bit of salt in it.

[N29468]

Say i do this for a few months and i gain 15-20 pounds. If i stopped and started to just eat 3 meals a day will i lose all my progress or does it stay with you?

Im gonna do the same with buying the chicken and rice. It will be a good meal filler to make enough chicken for a few days ahead of time and heat it up for a quick meal. Also im gonna have to try and mix my protein powder with the stuff you mentioned. Im slowing getting back into it today. So far ive had 3 meals since 12.

For breakfast (12) i made: 5 Eggs, 4 pieces of toast, some bacon, and a banana. At 2:30 i had a protein shake and snacked on a few things. At 5:30 i ate one of those big ham steaks and a potato. Im gonna go hit the gym and have a protein shake right once i get out and then ill have to figuire out somethin easy to make once i get home. So far so good. Im gonna go see how me knee holds up today lol. Ill be back on here once i get back from the gym.

[PiggySmallz]

if you cut back to three meals you will probably lose some of your progress. Once you build mass it takes a bunch of calories just to maintain it. Don't forget as you put on 15-20 lbs you'll need to redo that calculation. You now have 20 more lbs of mass, therefore need more calories to maintain it. Muscles are calorically (not sure if that's a word lol) expensive.

I look at a transformation in your body as a transformation of eating habits for life. You'll be eating healthier and looking better as well. No better time to start than now. You don't need to freak out if you miss a meal here or there, but don't make a large habit out of it. I'd be lying if I said I eat 5-6 meals still every single day. I don't but I made a habit out of it and it's starting to show. It's definitely not easy to stay 100% motivated. As long as you are still working out you'll be hungry to eat. Don't be afraid to have a cookie or cake now and then. You need it for your sanity, you're not competing so you don't need to be so hard on yourself. Reward yourself once a week. However if you are done putting on mass, cut back on the fats and carbs to take in less calories. Still maintain a high protein diet though. Same if you are looking to cut fat. When you want to lean out you need to eat less calories than you are using each day. After you do the equation take in about 300-500 calories less a day while doing some extra cardio and you will lean out. Again this is what worked for me, so you need to find out exactly what works for you. These are just rough numbers

Enjoy your workout!!

[N29468]

Originally Posted by PiggySmallz if you cut back to three meals you will probably lose some of your progress. Once you build mass it takes a bunch of calories just to maintain it. Don't forget as you put on 15-20 lbs you'll need to redo that calculation. You now have 20 more lbs of mass, therefore need more calories to maintain it. Muscles are calorically (not sure if that's a word lol) expensive. I look at a transformation in your body as a transformation of eating habits for life. You'll be eating healthier and looking better as well. No better time to start than now. You don't need to freak out if you miss a meal here or there, but don't make a large habit out of it. I'd be lying if I said I eat 5-6 meals still every single day. I don't but I made a habit out of it and it's starting to show. It's definitely not easy to stay 100% motivated. As long as you are still working out you'll be hungry to eat. Don't be afraid to have a cookie or cake now and then. You need it for your sanity, you're not competing so you don't need to be so hard on yourself. Reward yourself once a week. However if you are done putting on mass, cut back on the fats and carbs to take in less calories. Still maintain a high protein diet though. Same if you are looking to cut fat. When you want to lean out you need to eat less calories than you are using each day. After you do the equation take in about 300-500 calories less a day while doing some extra cardio and you will lean out. Again this is what worked for me, so you need to find out exactly what works for you. These are just rough numbers Enjoy your workout!!

Thanks man! Today was a success, i got 5 meals in and my knee is back to normal. Did my normal leg workout but skipped the leg extension machine because i think thats what was messin with my knee. So im gonna do that machine once a week.

I guess im just gonna have to get really into this and start eating a lot more. Im really motivated to go to the gym so im gonna have to be the same way about eating healthier/more meals. Last night i weighed myself and i was 170. When i first started in early may i was 150. Thats me with a normal diet and ive only been taking protein for about less then 2 months. So ive gained an average of 3.3lb of muscle per month which is pretty good i think. Some of it may be fat burned off but really i have no fat on me lol. So hopefully i can stick to this 5 meal a day plan and see where that puts me at. Thanks for all your input, its been very helpful!

[PiggySmallz]

no problem, glad to see your dedicated. Follow a solid plan and you'll be fine. You're going to put on fat as you gain weight, its inevitable. Cardio twice a week will keep that at a minimum. It sounds like you've gained some good mass and you're on the right track. Just remember that most of your workouts are done in the kitchen. If you want to take other supplements I would strongly recommend a creatine. Can be a plain vitamin shoppe brand monohydrate or if you want a pre workout blend, like Presurge unleashed. I love pre surge as it gets me going with no annoying side effects and I can still sleep at night. The regular monohydrate will be cheaper though and essentially do the same thing. More importantly though you should pick up a multi vitamin. I use animal pakks however they are expensive. I'll be switching to Opti Men shortly. Its cheaper and a lot less pills haha

[N29468]

Originally Posted by PiggySmallz no problem, glad to see your dedicated. Follow a solid plan and you'll be fine. You're going to put on fat as you gain weight, its inevitable. Cardio twice a week will keep that at a minimum. It sounds like you've gained some good mass and you're on the right track. Just remember that most of your workouts are done in the kitchen. If you want to take other supplements I would strongly recommend a creatine. Can be a plain vitamin shoppe brand monohydrate or if you want a pre workout blend, like Presurge unleashed. I love pre surge as it gets me going with no annoying side effects and I can still sleep at night. The regular monohydrate will be cheaper though and essentially do the same thing. More importantly though you should pick up a multi vitamin. I use animal pakks however they are expensive. I'll be switching to Opti Men shortly. Its cheaper and a lot less pills haha

Ive put on some pretty good mass but still fell kinda skinny. I guess thats what happends when your 6'3 170lb lol. I kinda wish i would have taken a before pic to show my propgress, Oh well.

I might have to buy that PreSurge Unleashed. I just looked it up and people give it pretty good reviewsand its funny you say Optimen. When i bought my protein and casein it came with a free optimen 90ct bottle. I liked it and just bought a big bottle (180ct) recently. They say to take 3 but ive been taking 2, one in the morning and one at night.

[PiggySmallz]

I really like the pre surge a lot. I would only take the 2 a day also of optimen. I only take the 1 serving of animal pakks now. It says to take 2 but thats overkill lol