[shafe_08]

what about justice?

[1FUN4RD]

Originally Posted by ItaliStang I foresee this thread ending up like the god thread...

AMEN BROTHER!!

[graystang01]

if u murder someone u should have a bullet put between your eyes. effective and a lot cheaper than protecting the "murder's rights". if you murder someone YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS AND YOU DESERVE TO DIE. if u rape someone u need to be fucked up.


im off to baseball practice i will continue my rant later

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by shafe_08 what about justice?

justice as "the quality of being fair and reasonable"
or
justice as "the administration of the law or authority in maintaining this"

justice is served once the laws are followed and the judicial system acts legally with respect to all other laws on book

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by graystang01 if u murder someone u should have a bullet put between your eyes. effective and a lot cheaper than protecting the murder's rights. if you murder someone YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS AND YOU DESERVE TO DIE. if u rape someone u need to be fucked up.

what if you were framed as a murderer but were innocent? would you not want your rights protected?

[ItaliStang]

personally, the whole thought of "is the death penalty cruel and unusual?" seems a little pointless to me...

people say the constitution would say it is cruel... yet the people who wrote the constitution held executions, and had the death penalty...

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by ItaliStang personally, the whole thought of "is the death penalty cruel and unusual?" seems a little pointless to me... people say the constitution would say it is cruel... yet the people who wrote the constitution held executions, and had the death penalty...

but as other laws are passed and other cases are tried, the courts change rulings with time. flexibility is what allows our nation to grow with the times.

[TheUNZippee!]

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 the reason this is being heard in the Supreme Court is because there is question that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment itself...

Yes. It is cruel punishment. As it should be.

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 murder itself is cruel and unusual... so is the reciprocated action of lethal injection.

Again, as it should be.

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 we dont rape criminals that rape others. we shouldnt murder criminals because they murder. yes prisons cost money, so does the war we are in... others would argue to end the war on your dime...

To me that is not a valid correlation. Raping someone who has raped to me, is not justice, it's torture. I don't believe in that as justice, but I do believe in the death penalty as justice. For murderers. Rapists? I'm typically on the fence about that. Can we make that a separate debate though, man?

Originally Posted by HMUSN ^ ever been in prison? put a rapist in prison with other prisoners and see what happens I'll call it a difference in opinion. I believe in an eye for an eye when it come to murder and rape

Exactly. I don't know how else to espouse my thoughts on it. If you mudrer someone else, you deserve to die. Period.

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 keeping the criminals occupied in prisons keeps them off the streets. we do not reform them, we do not educate them, we only keep them off of the streets to keep them from committing crimes. if you have no legal argument, why argue? i am a supporter of programs in prison that allow convicts to perform litter control tasks and other public services during their tenure. i agree they should pay for their crimes, but keeping them in prison (and legally keeping them alive to the best we can) is important. the grand part of the american judicial system is the rights of the accused. without these rights and protections, citizens would fear a more powerful state. because of the tyranny and abuse of the judicial system in england, framers devised a system like ours to protect people.

Again, this will be a different view point on a philosophical level, AB. The reason that the death penalty is not on the books in some states, is that the politicians with the same viewpoint as yours made it that way in that state. Just as the politicians with my view point have kept the death penalty in other states.

What can I say? It's not a complicated thing to me, which doesn't mean I don't feel a certain....not grimness, I can't think of the word....heaviness? when I read of someone being executed. It's a very serious thing, indeed. But I believe in serious punishment for serious crimes. I do not believe in putting murderers in prison. I do not believe in rehabilitation for murderers. It appalls me when I see a murderer out on the street after 7, 10, 15, even 25 years, which happens ALL the time, it defies any logical way of thinking to me, and is a gross injustice and horrific slap in the face to the victim of that murderer. It must be like having their loved one murdered all over again. That is a pain that never goes away for them. EVER. It's a thought that is in your head every single day. All the time.

Imagine this, for me, for a moment, AB. And I'm not trying to be morbid. Imagine a loved one of yours. I won't say which one because that's too dark. Make it a fictional character.

This will be long, but I'm asking you as a friendly debater to read this, just as I read everything of yours when we're talking about serious things, and REALLY place yourself in this story.




Let's say that person is working the graveyard shift, and is on their way to their car in a parking lot late one night to go grab lunch, and a person comes along, and for no other reason than being a lunatic that lacks a certain brain cell you and I have, they pull out a knife, and stab them in the back. Your loved one falls on the ground, stunned, and in HORRIFIC pain, only to look up and see this person raising the knife above their heads. And then watching as that knife is plunged in to them over and over again. The attacker is smiling a he defiles your loved one, and then gets up, and calmly walks away while your loved ones mangled corpse lays there in a pile of blood.

Now you're at home sleeping. You get a knock on the door, and open it. A couple of officers are standing there, and ask you if they can come inside and talk to you for a minute. Immediately upon opening the door, though, your stomach flips over and the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. The officers ask you to sit down for a minute. Now you already know what is coming, deep inside, but you start praying to god that this can't be happening, that it MUST be something else. The officers ask you if you know 'loved one'. You say "Yes, yes, WHY." They tell you that something happened to them in a parking lot as they were going for lunch....they were attacked randomly and were killed.

Your whole fucking entire world is changed, irrevocably, forever, in that instant. You know a pain you will never, ever, ever fucking forget. You have to go down to the morgue, and identify your loved one. The last time you saw them, they were a beautiful living person. Now th coroner pulls back a white sheet as you stand there, and you see a pale, ashy, doll-like version of the person you used to know. You will never, ever forget that look, and the smell of death. It will haunt you every time you go to sleep. As you lay in bed at night, you can't stop yourself from imagining them being attacked by this faceless, nameless, lunatic. You can't stop yourself from hearing their cries of pain, and cries for help. You can't stop yourself from picturing them as they lay there, in their last moments, bleeding to death in great pain. What was their last thoughts? Why did this happen? Did they think of me in that last moment? Why the fuck did our lives have to turn out to where they had to work that shitty fucking shift? Why, why, and why after why.....that you will never answer.

The only thought that drives you and keeps you from smashing your head off of the walls, is anger. You want the murder caught. Even as you stand at the funeral, and watch your loved one lowered in to the ground as the rest of both your families stand around crushed, shaken, and crying with pain, your thoughts are filled with rage and a burning desire to catch the killer.



A couple of months go by. You get a phone call from the detective working your case. They have caught the killer, AB. Your emotions once again rise to the surface, and you are shaking with a mixture of anger, pain, and confusion. You hang up the phone, and collapse to the floor crying. Again. As you will do many times for the rest of your life.

Fast forward to the first day in court. You sit there in your suit and tie, and for the first time watch this monster you have visualized in your head countless times walk down the aisle, in his orange suit, and handcuffs and chains. Now the monster has a face. A face you will never forget. He's smiling and smirking as he walks, and looks you right in the eye.

How do you feel now, AB? Are you REALLY visualizing yourself in this scenario? Do you wish him a long jail sentence, and hope we can come to understand what drives him and others like him to do this, so that we may come to help people like that and prevent further violence?

Or are you SO filled with motherFUCKING rage that you want to jump over the rail, and tear his god damned worthless throat out yourself? Like he bloody well DESERVES.

If you don't, call me. I'll fucking kill him myself, and not lose an ounce of sleep over it.




A melodramatic scenario, AB? No. Not at all. In real life it would be far, far more dramatic and emotional.

THAT's why I believe in the death penalty.

[ItaliStang]

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 but as other laws are passed and other cases are tried, the courts change rulings with time. flexibility is what allows our nation to grow with the times.

they do change, I'm just saying it seems pointless to take the constitution's words and use them as a reason to abolish the death penalty... when like you said, courts change their rulings...

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! Yes. It is cruel punishment. As it should be. Again, as it should be. To me that is not a valid correlation. Raping someone who has raped to me, is not justice, it's torture. I don't believe in that as justice, but I do believe in the death penalty as justice. For murderers. Rapists? I'm typically on the fence about that. Can we make that a separate debate though, man? Exactly. I don't know how else to espouse my thoughts on it. If you mudrer someone else, you deserve to die. Period. Again, this will be a different view point on a philosophical level, AB. The reason that the death penalty is not on the books in some states, is that the politicians with the same viewpoint as yours made it that way in that state. Just as the politicians with my view point have kept the death penalty in other states. What can I say? It's not a complicated thing to me, which doesn't mean I don't feel a certain....not grimness, I can't think of the word....heaviness? when I read of someone being executed. It's a very serious thing, indeed. But I believe in serious punishment for serious crimes. I do not believe in putting murderers in prison. I do not believe in rehabilitation for murderers. It appalls me when I see a murderer out on the street after 7, 10, 15, even 25 years, which happens ALL the time, it defies any logical way of thinking to me, and is a gross injustice and horrific slap in the face to the victim of that murderer. It must be like having their loved one murdered all over again. That is a pain that never goes away for them. EVER. It's a thought that is in your head every single day. All the time. Imagine this, for me, for a moment, AB. And I'm not trying to be morbid. Imagine a loved one of yours. I won't say which one because that's too dark. Make it a fictional character. This will be long, but I'm asking you as a friendly debater to read this, just as I read everything of yours when we're talking about serious things, and REALLY place yourself in this story. Let's say that person is working the graveyard shift, and is on their way to their car in a parking lot late one night to go grab lunch, and a person comes along, and for no other reason than being a lunatic that lacks a certain brain cell you and I have, they pull out a knife, and stab them in the back. Your loved one falls on the ground, stunned, and in HORRIFIC pain, only to look up and see this person raising the knife above their heads. And then watching as that knife is plunged in to them over and over again. The attacker is smiling a he defiles your loved one, and then gets up, and calmly walks away while your loved ones mangled corpse lays there in a pile of blood. Now you're at home sleeping. You get a knock on the door, and open it. A couple of officers are standing there, and ask you if they can come inside and talk to you for a minute. Immediately upon opening the door, though, your stomach flips over and the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. The officers ask you to sit down for a minute. Now you already know what is coming, deep inside, but you start praying to god that this can't be happening, that it MUST be something else. The officers ask you if you know 'loved one'. You say "Yes, yes, WHY." They tell you that something happened to them in a parking lot as they were going for lunch....they were attacked randomly and were killed. Your whole fucking entire world is changed, irrevocably, forever, in that instant. You know a pain you will never, ever, ever fucking forget. You have to go down to the morgue, and identify your loved one. The last time you saw them, they were a beautiful living person. Now th coroner pulls back a white sheet as you stand there, and you see a pale, ashy, doll-like version of the person you used to know. You will never, ever forget that look, and the smell of death. It will haunt you every time you go to sleep. As you lay in bed at night, you can't stop yourself from imagining them being attacked by this faceless, nameless, lunatic. You can't stop yourself from hearing their cries of pain, and cries for help. You can't stop yourself from picturing them as they lay there, in their last moments, bleeding to death in great pain. What was their last thoughts? Why did this happen? Did they think of me in that last moment? Why the fuck did our lives have to turn out to where they had to work that shitty fucking shift? Why, why, and why after why.....that you will never answer. The only thought that drives you and keeps you from smashing your head off of the walls, is anger. You want the murder caught. Even as you stand at the funeral, and watch your loved one lowered in to the ground as the rest of both your families stand around crushed, shaken, and crying with pain, your thoughts are filled with rage and a burning desire to catch the killer. A couple of months go by. You get a phone call from the detective working your case. They have caught the killer, AB. Your emotions once again rise to the surface, and you are shaking with a mixture of anger, pain, and confusion. You hang up the phone, and collapse to the floor crying. Again. As you will do many times for the rest of your life. Fast forward to the first day in court. You sit there in your suit and tie, and for the first time watch this monster you have visualized in your head countless times walk down the aisle, in his orange suit, and handcuffs and chains. Now the monster has a face. A face you will never forget. He's smiling and smirking as he walks, and looks you right in the eye. How do you feel now, AB? Are you REALLY visualizing yourself in this scenario? Do you wish him a long jail sentence, and hope we can come to understand what drives him and others like him to do this, so that we may come to help people like that and prevent further violence? Or are you SO filled with motherFUCKING rage that you want to jump over the rail, and tear his god damned worthless throat out yourself? Like he bloody well DESERVES. If you don't, call me. I'll fucking kill him myself, and not lose an ounce of sleep over it.

the adjectives are ... great! you should be an author. but no, didnt change my view. i understand your view (at least it is educated)

but what if i snapped one day and i was one who murdered? what if i had a family who would always love me? my children would want to know me, know why i did what i did... me being alive and in prison gives me the opportunity to teach others about my condition, what i did, etc. being dead is the easy way out.

[shadow5403]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! Yes. It is cruel punishment. As it should be. Again, as it should be. To me that is not a valid correlation. Raping someone who has raped to me, is not justice, it's torture. I don't believe in that as justice, but I do believe in the death penalty as justice. For murderers. Rapists? I'm typically on the fence about that. Can we make that a separate debate though, man? Exactly. I don't know how else to espouse my thoughts on it. If you mudrer someone else, you deserve to die. Period. Again, this will be a different view point on a philosophical level, AB. The reason that the death penalty is not on the books in some states, is that the politicians with the same viewpoint as yours made it that way in that state. Just as the politicians with my view point have kept the death penalty in other states. What can I say? It's not a complicated thing to me, which doesn't mean I don't feel a certain....not grimness, I can't think of the word....heaviness? when I read of someone being executed. It's a very serious thing, indeed. But I believe in serious punishment for serious crimes. I do not believe in putting murderers in prison. I do not believe in rehabilitation for murderers. It appalls me when I see a murderer out on the street after 7, 10, 15, even 25 years, which happens ALL the time, it defies any logical way of thinking to me, and is a gross injustice and horrific slap in the face to the victim of that murderer. It must be like having their loved one murdered all over again. That is a pain that never goes away for them. EVER. It's a thought that is in your head every single day. All the time. Imagine this, for me, for a moment, AB. And I'm not trying to be morbid. Imagine a loved one of yours. I won't say which one because that's too dark. Make it a fictional character. This will be long, but I'm asking you as a friendly debater to read this, just as I read everything of yours when we're talking about serious things, and REALLY place yourself in this story. Let's say that person is working the graveyard shift, and is on their way to their car in a parking lot late one night to go grab lunch, and a person comes along, and for no other reason than being a lunatic that lacks a certain brain cell you and I have, they pull out a knife, and stab them in the back. Your loved one falls on the ground, stunned, and in HORRIFIC pain, only to look up and see this person raising the knife above their heads. And then watching as that knife is plunged in to them over and over again. The attacker is smiling a he defiles your loved one, and then gets up, and calmly walks away while your loved ones mangled corpse lays there in a pile of blood. Now you're at home sleeping. You get a knock on the door, and open it. A couple of officers are standing there, and ask you if they can come inside and talk to you for a minute. Immediately upon opening the door, though, your stomach flips over and the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. The officers ask you to sit down for a minute. Now you already know what is coming, deep inside, but you start praying to god that this can't be happening, that it MUST be something else. The officers ask you if you know 'loved one'. You say "Yes, yes, WHY." They tell you that something happened to them in a parking lot as they were going for lunch....they were attacked randomly and were killed. Your whole fucking entire world is changed, irrevocably, forever, in that instant. You know a pain you will never, ever, ever fucking forget. You have to go down to the morgue, and identify your loved one. The last time you saw them, they were a beautiful living person. Now th coroner pulls back a white sheet as you stand there, and you see a pale, ashy, doll-like version of the person you used to know. You will never, ever forget that look, and the smell of death. It will haunt you every time you go to sleep. As you lay in bed at night, you can't stop yourself from imagining them being attacked by this faceless, nameless, lunatic. You can't stop yourself from hearing their cries of pain, and cries for help. You can't stop yourself from picturing them as they lay there, in their last moments, bleeding to death in great pain. What was their last thoughts? Why did this happen? Did they think of me in that last moment? Why the fuck did our lives have to turn out to where they had to work that shitty fucking shift? Why, why, and why after why.....that you will never answer. The only thought that drives you and keeps you from smashing your head off of the walls, is anger. You want the murder caught. Even as you stand at the funeral, and watch your loved one lowered in to the ground as the rest of both your families stand around crushed, shaken, and crying with pain, your thoughts are filled with rage and a burning desire to catch the killer. A couple of months go by. You get a phone call from the detective working your case. They have caught the killer, AB. Your emotions once again rise to the surface, and you are shaking with a mixture of anger, pain, and confusion. You hang up the phone, and collapse to the floor crying. Again. As you will do many times for the rest of your life. Fast forward to the first day in court. You sit there in your suit and tie, and for the first time watch this monster you have visualized in your head countless times walk down the aisle, in his orange suit, and handcuffs and chains. Now the monster has a face. A face you will never forget. He's smiling and smirking as he walks, and looks you right in the eye. How do you feel now, AB? Are you REALLY visualizing yourself in this scenario? Do you wish him a long jail sentence, and hope we can come to understand what drives him and others like him to do this, so that we may come to help people like that and prevent further violence? Or are you SO filled with motherFUCKING rage that you want to jump over the rail, and tear his god damned worthless throat out yourself? Like he bloody well DESERVES. If you don't, call me. I'll fucking kill him myself, and not lose an ounce of sleep over it. A melodramatic scenario, AB? No. Not at all. In real life it would be far, far more dramatic and emotional. THAT's why I believe in the death penalty.

+1

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by ItaliStang they do change, I'm just saying it seems pointless to take the constitution's words and use them as a reason to abolish the death penalty... when like you said, courts change their rulings...

it has been done before though.

in Furman v. Georgia (1972), the case ruled executions were performed cruel and unusually, and ended all executions in america for more than a decade.

[TheUNZippee!]

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 the adjectives are ... great! you should be an author. but no, didnt change my view. i understand your view (at least it is educated) but what if i snapped one day and i was one who murdered? what if i had a family who would always love me? my children would want to know me, know why i did what i did... me being alive and in prison gives me the opportunity to teach others about my condition, what i did, etc. being dead is the easy way out.

Then we agree to disagree, AB. You will always be against capital punishment, and I will always be for it.

Because you, see, were you the one to snap, and do something horrible to my family, I could not give two shits about your family. You should have thought about that before you murdered someone I know, then.

Cuz all this 'being in prison giving others the opportunity to learn about your condition' is bullshit to me. It really is. To me, personally. If it's important to you, I respect that thought as I respect your thoughts on other issues. But the only reason for me to 'learn about your condition', as it were, would be if it led to a reduction and/or prevention of future violence. I don't think it has. And the fact that the United States has one of, if not THE highest, jail populace, is indicative of that.

But I won't even call out the 'death penalty as deterrent' card. Because it's not about that for me. It's about justice as it relates to right and wrong.

I really don't care to spend my tax dollars on psychoanalyzing people that are capable of murder. If we can't rehabilitate a convicted monster, what on Earth makes us think that coming to an understanding of what drives them will stop other monsters? You think future monsters are going to read the analytical papers of past murderers and come to the conclusion that "Hey- THAT's why I want to kill someone! NOW I feel all better! I no longer have the urge to kill. Thank god for that study."

It just doesn't happen that way.

[Regency 2007]

Murderer's need to die.

Ab needs brains.

Zippy is smart.

Luis is butthurt.

Thats all...

[TheUNZippee!]

Ab has plenty of brains, Reg. Because one has a differing viewpoint doesn't mean they lack intelligence.

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! Ab has plenty of brains, Reg. Because one has a differing viewpoint doesn't mean they lack intelligence.

thanks zippee!

[TheUNZippee!]

[ItaliStang]

Originally Posted by AtlanticBlue99 it has been done before though. in Furman v. Georgia (1972), the case ruled executions were performed cruel and unusually, and ended all executions in america for more than a decade.

yes, I know, but I'm not sure you get where I'm coming from...

I was just stating that I get tired of hearing people refer to the constitution's words for their reason to abolish it... the writers of that had the death penalty and used it... but I hear from many other people "our founding forefathers say so"... no, the people in cases like Furman v georgia say so...

and personally, in that case, and others like it, I think if they were interpreting the constitution to decide if the "forefathers" meant death as cruel and unusual, then they were idiots, because like I said, those forefathers used it back then

you said that laws are changed because it allows our nation to grow with the times...

well what is the difference between someone murdered in the late 1800's and someone murdered now? Why would laws need to be changed for that? Murder is murder

[1FUN4RD]

[quote=ItaliStang;1008313

you said that laws are changed because it allows our nation to grow with the times...

well what is the difference between someone murdered in the late 1800's and someone murdered now? Why would laws need to be changed for that? Murder is murder[/quote]
Because the times have changed due to way to many frickin liberals..

[AtlanticBlue99]

Originally Posted by ItaliStang yes, I know, but I'm not sure you get where I'm coming from... I was just stating that I get tired of hearing people refer to the constitution's words for their reason to abolish it... the writers of that had the death penalty and used it... but I hear from many other people "our founding forefathers say so"... no, the people in cases like Furman v georgia say so... and personally, in that case, and others like it, I think if they were interpreting the constitution to decide if the "forefathers" meant death as cruel and unusual, then they were idiots, because like I said, those forefathers used it back then you said that laws are changed because it allows our nation to grow with the times... well what is the difference between someone murdered in the late 1800's and someone murdered now? Why would laws need to be changed for that? Murder is murder

in a legal understanding, you take law by the word, not by the intent of the author...

as people challenge the laws, courts may or may not hold true to precedents. it really depends on the chief justice in this case. in the 72 case, warren burger was the chief justice and was a strict constructionist who led the court to follow the word of the law, not the intent.

today, roberts is the chief justice, and in an interview with giuliani he titled himself a strict constructionist as burger was, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the judicial system...