[DickH]

I have grown very fond of doing an air to water intercooler setup for my p1sc. I don't really care if it is really needed, I just want to do it. I have gone over ebay a couple times, and im looking to pick up a used cobra heat exchanger, a water pump for a beetle (same as the pump used for the cobra SC, just 40 bucks cheaper) and whatever air-water intercooler fits best without an ass ton of work. I don't have my car right now, I hope to have it by Tuesday to make measurements for the air-water intercooler. Aside from a water tank, is there anything else I need, it is this straight forward right?

[dblzroracin]

You may want to check out the Vortech Maxflow Aftercooler. I would check out these systems to see what all is needed. This design would prob be what you are looking for. They dont look like too much work involved.
And there is always the Vortech Mondo Cooler. but it will require a huge Cowl hood for clearence.

[ESG-642T]

Do you go to the track often?

[DickH]

Yeah I am just eating for a good deal on a heat exchanger and I'm good. I do not go to the track very often, but I still dont want an air to air setup.

[ESG-642T]

Don't understand why...

Air-to-Air > air to water until you put ice in it and make passes at the track.

But it IS your car

[DickH]

How is air to air better?

[ARNOLDLewis]

The inter cooler is down low. The intake is usually higher up. But to try and answer as sisinctly as possible, the water won't usually get that far unless you drive through a deluge. Any that does get sucked in will usually be mist and do no harm by the time it reaches the throttle body. Think of all the piping and heat and the turbo and all the churning air in between entrance and exhaust.
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[Matt Cramer]

Originally Posted by DickH How is air to air better?

For a setup that doesn't use ice water (or a boat), air to air can get consistantly lower temperatures because it transfers the heat directly from the intake to the surrounding air. An air to water setup has less efficiency because it has two steps in transfering the heat. We have cars with both setups in the shop and the air to air ones generally run cooler on a front engined car. (Mid engined cars don't do too well with air to air, though - no airflow through the engine compartment to speak of.)

[DickH]

That doesn't sound right, neither of you sound right.

[ESG-642T]

Originally Posted by DickH That doesn't sound right, neither of you sound right.

Stick your hand out the window while your driving...
All that air passing through your intercooler

vs

water circulating , trying to be cooled by a heat exchanger, and then recirculated. I don't know about you but I've never had an easy time cooling hot water with just air , now you add ice to this mix when you get to the drag strip and you've got "ice cold" water but even then you have to ice it back down after a pass.

** this is why you see some drag cars with the pipes running inside and an entire passenger seat worth of air-to-water intercooler that works great for towing the car, iceing it the hell down and making one bad ass record breaking pass, re ice, and repeat lol **

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by DickH How is air to air better?

+1. Water transfers heat more than four times better than air.

In my opinion you can't just say that one is better than the other. Both have some advantages.

Originally Posted by SSStang Stick your hand out the window while your driving...

Now spit on your palm and try it again, which one feels colder?

[ESG-642T]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox +1. Water transfers heat more than four times better than air. In my opinion you can't just say that one is better than the other. Both have some advantages. Now spit on your palm and try it again, which one feels colder?

That one area, vs the entire area the air is flowing over...
In a DD street driven non track car air-to-air is just better period.

[DickH]

How so though, the air to water setup is more efficient in moving heat, takes more to get heat soaked, has less pressure drop and can be iced. The only reasons I see air to air as being better is that air to air is cheaper, and will suffice for normal driving.

[ESG-642T]

Its been proven buy...

SEVERAL companies, and independent test.

[DickH]

link?

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by SSStang In a DD street driven non track car air-to-air is just better period.

Yes, i agree on a DD, non track car. But like Dick said, water to air can be iced so that sounds better to me on a track car. That's what i meant, no one can say that one is the best. It all depends.

[ESG-642T]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox Yes, i agree on a DD, non track car. But like Dick said, water to air can be iced so that sounds better to me on a track car. That's what i meant, no one can say that one is the best. It all depends.

Well I was going by the fact that the OP said "I do not go to the track very often" which I assumed his car would be more of a daily driver and in that case air-to-air would be his best bet.

Yes if i was building a car that I would pull off a trailer and fire up, or a car i just drove on the weekend and to the track and home and not much street time then it would have the biggest heat exchanger battery relocated and huge reservoir for the ice.

[DickH]

Well if it is track only why get a heat exchanger?

[dcook_14]

Some quotes I got from my Procharger information packet

"Street cars will benefit much more from an air-to-air intercooler. This is because the coolest air charger (from an air-to-water intercooler) is available only with a fresh charge of ice and water. Ice melts quickly when circulated through an intercooler, so it's useful life is measured in only minutes." - Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords

"The normal, closed loop air-to-water intercooler system is not as effective as a properly designed air-to-air intercooling system since the cooling medium or the liquid coming from the front heat exchanger is always warmer than the ambient air temperature" - from All About Intercooling by George Spears

"In terms of efficiency, the air-to-water intercooler is only 33% efficient. Typical automotive air-to-air intercoolers score in the 60% -70% range." - Cool Breeze Blowing from Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords

[dcook_14]

"Aftermarket air-to-water systems typically do not come close to this performance (of an air-to-air system), in part because the water coolant is hotter than ambient air in real world street use. Air-to-air also is more reliable than aftermarket air-to-water systems. With an air-to-air design, ther is virtually no way for the intercooler system to fail, let alone harm your engine. With air-to-water, all it takes is a loose wire, blown fuse, pump failure, water leak, etc. to revert to non-intercooled operation. Engine damage could result due to the substantial increase in charge air temperatures." - Procharger

"Because of packaging limitations, air-to-water intercoolers are typically located above the exhaust or engine, where they are exposed to tremendous heat. Air-to-air intercoolers, on the other hand, are located in a fresh air stream, which allows them to cool/recover quickly and maintain consistent performance. Air-to-air designs are simply a more natural fit." - Procharger

"Industry experts widely agree that air-to-air technology is preferred for street/strip use. When OEM's can utilize air-to-air, this is almost always thier choice, due to superior performance. Dealers who perform testing will tell you that the lower effectiveness of air-to-water (without ice) is clearly illustrated by lower power gains and higher charge air temperatures relative to air-to-air. This is apparent in dyno testing, which typically lacks "real-world" ram airflow across the intercooler, and even more apparent in actual road or track use. This is true when testing centrifugals with air-to-air vs air-to-water, and the advantage in hp gains approaches 2:1 when comparing an air-to-air intercooled centrifugal to a roots/hybrid supercharger with an air-to-water." - Procharger

ATI (the company that makes Prochargers) has air-to-water intercooler systems, but they only offer those for marine or race-only applications. These work as well as air-to-air intercoolers in these applications because in marine applications, the water under the boat provides an endless supply of cool water, and race-only applications can constantly use ice water.

I would say if ATI recommends an air-to-air system, that's what you should go with. Plus it's so much more simple and fits a street/strip application a lot better.