[yellowstang6r]

Dual HHO Hydrogen Generator Cell Kit Browns Gas Save $$:eBay Motors (item 220422285225 end time Jun-02-09 10:21:54 PDT)

[White Thunder]

Looks like bs. If it really worked it would cost more. 200 bucks and saves 30 to 90 percent....

[03SonicBoom]

Just a standard HHO converter. I built one awhile back b/c I said they don't work and a couple of my buddies said they would work. Put it on my Cavalier and it didn't do anything except take up space. No suprise to me.

[yellowstang6r]

Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom Just a standard HHO converter. I built one awhile back b/c I said they don't work and a couple of my buddies said they would work. Put it on my Cavalier and it didn't do anything except take up space. No suprise to me.

Haha thats what I was thinking but ppl that I've talked to said they've built it too and it did work. That was the only one I've seen marketed so I figured I'd ask when I had the chance

[Matt Cramer]

Well, you burn gasoline to drive the engine to drive the alternator to make electricity to power an electrolysis cell to make hydrogen to burn to drive the alternator to.... and round and round it goes...

And if that explanation makes your head hurt, it should! It's a bunch of nonsense. They had one of these on Dateline a while back in what may have been the only time anyone's ever given an HHO system an EPA-certified mileage test. The car got 1/2 mpg better with the system SWITCHED OFF - it was making things worse. Most of the "success stories" out there, I suspect, were when somebody added a couple "supporting mods" to their HHO generator, and the supporting mods were actually valid mods to improve mileage.

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by Matt Cramer Well, you burn gasoline to drive the engine to drive the alternator to make electricity to power an electrolysis cell to make hydrogen to burn to drive the alternator to.... and round and round it goes... And if that explanation makes your head hurt, it should! It's a bunch of nonsense. They had one of these on Dateline a while back in what may have been the only time anyone's ever given an HHO system an EPA-certified mileage test. The car got 1/2 mpg better with the system SWITCHED OFF - it was making things worse. Most of the "success stories" out there, I suspect, were when somebody added a couple "supporting mods" to their HHO generator, and the supporting mods were actually valid mods to improve mileage.

First off I'm just pointing this out b/c I'm playing devils advocate.

Imagine this. You have a diesel truck and when you step on the gas it blows black smoke. All this smoke is excess fuel that's not burned off. Before the normal injection cycle, one injects a little bit of diesel it starts to ignite. Then the normal injection cycle hits and it burns the fuel more completely. By adding a little bit of gas to each combustion, one will get more fuel efficiency. Why? B/c you have a more through and complete burn. Less wasted fuel.

Jump to HHO converters. You're simplifying the argument WAY too much. Say the standard motor only burns 80% of the fuel in the combustion. The remaining 20% is exhausted and not used for power. Now, if you use a little electricity to make hydrogen and oxygen, inject it into the air/fuel mixture, it could cause 95% of the fuel to burn in combustion. This would mean more power per combustion and less fuel to do the same work. One isn't coming out ahead (not a perpetual motion machine). They are just making higher efficiency.

[Matt Cramer]

Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom First off I'm just pointing this out b/c I'm playing devils advocate. Imagine this. You have a diesel truck and when you step on the gas it blows black smoke. All this smoke is excess fuel that's not burned off. Before the normal injection cycle, one injects a little bit of diesel it starts to ignite. Then the normal injection cycle hits and it burns the fuel more completely. By adding a little bit of gas to each combustion, one will get more fuel efficiency. Why? B/c you have a more through and complete burn. Less wasted fuel.

That's a good question. Diesels get enough effect from propane injection and other gas injection methods that I suppose it's possible you could accomplish something with a very, very large generator. I haven't done much work with diesels so I am not sure there. But on gasoline, read on.

Jump to HHO converters. You're simplifying the argument WAY too much. Say the standard motor only burns 80% of the fuel in the combustion. The remaining 20% is exhausted and not used for power.

That assumption is seriously flawed. Gasoline engines get around 98% or more of the fuel burnt before the exhaust valve opens. If you're getting 20% of the fuel coming out in the exhaust, you're going to have some serious damage happen to your exhaust.

Now, if you use a little electricity to make hydrogen and oxygen, inject it into the air/fuel mixture, it could cause 95% of the fuel to burn in combustion. This would mean more power per combustion and less fuel to do the same work. One isn't coming out ahead (not a perpetual motion machine). They are just making higher efficiency.

There are a lot of inventions out there that claim that not all the fuel gets burnt in a gasoline engine, but this simply is not the case. There's an interesting page on this here:

Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by Matt Cramer That's a good question. Diesels get enough effect from propane injection and other gas injection methods that I suppose it's possible you could accomplish something with a very, very large generator. I haven't done much work with diesels so I am not sure there. But on gasoline, read on. That assumption is seriously flawed. Gasoline engines get around 98% or more of the fuel burnt before the exhaust valve opens. If you're getting 20% of the fuel coming out in the exhaust, you're going to have some serious damage happen to your exhaust. There are a lot of inventions out there that claim that not all the fuel gets burnt in a gasoline engine, but this simply is not the case. There's an interesting page on this here: Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view

I should have been more clear and stated that those numbers were made up. I picked random numbers out of my head to make the point. So it could go from 98% to 99.5% burned. I'm just saying that's the theory they use. They aren't using the theory that it's a perpetual motion machine like you suggested earlier.

The diesel thing is true. There was a thing on TV about it. Use more fuel per combustion (at strategic times) and get better fuel efficiency. Seems counter intuitive but it's true.

[Matt Cramer]

The thing is, if you could go from burning 98% of the fuel to 99.5%, that's not much more than a 1.5% improvement, and most of the HHO guys are insisting they can get anywhere from 50% to 150% improvement. Every time I've seen someone put one to a reasonably well designed and rigorous test, it failed completely.

There are ways a determined tuner can squeeze more MPG out of an engine, but I have seen no evidence to date that HHO systems are one of them, or any convincing explanation why they should be one of them. Even the name sounds implausible, like you've got some misshapen water molecule with one of the hydrogen atoms having jumped from the oxygen atom to the other hydrogen.