[scooter0803]

Hey guys, I'm new the the site and have a few questions that some of you may be able to help me out on. My buddy has a 2000 GT and is wanting to go through and completly build the motor up. I'm more of a chevy guy and don't really know what works best on these motors and what stuff is good or not. he is wanting to build as much as possible, but also keep in mind that he is wanting to supercharge it a little later on down the road. He is looking at buying new heads and cams. New intake set up. Is the bottom end on these capable of handling power? Or do I need to be looking at getting a new bottom end? Any and all info and opinions would be great. THANKS!!!!!!

scooter0803

[97S281]

Iv'e got a set of assembled Stage II heads for a windsor motor he can pic up. Iv'e got a nice set of cams for them too if he is interested just PM me.

[TheHambone]

Trick flow 44cc heads... blower cams.. built bottom end.. Intake.. headers.. adjustable cam gears.. and a blower.. you can make as much power as a blower will put out.

Or he could replace the blower cams with turbo cams and put a turbo on it.. Cheaper to make more power.

The factory shortblock is only good for about 450rwhp.. some make more with no problems.. some make less and blow their motors... It all about the tune and how the driver respects the laffy taffy rods and rock candy pistons. You can use stock heads, but there is deff power to be made with some port work. With stock heads you are limited to smaller camshafts without flycutting the pistons. The trickflow heads are diff valves and diff valve angles that allow much more lift on a stock bottom end. The trickflows also flow insane numbers right out the box.. with porting they are unreal. 300ish with stage 3 porting..

There is tons of hp to be made with a 4.6 mod motor.. Your buddy needs to figure out how much money he wants to spend and we can help you figure out how to make the most hp with the allowed money. It also would help if he would pick a hp goal.

[ITS ME DAVID]

first whats his budget, second how much whp does he wanna make with that cash ? there is lots of variables..

[scooter0803]

Well I can't really get a budget out of him. Just the stuff he has told me so far that he is wanting to do is a lot, so who knows. He is wanting to make the most power he can on just the motor for right know. I have been looking at some of the trick flow heads, but there are many different ones. Two of the ones they have on summit list saying the have the same things. Well the cc's are a little different, but that is the only difference I could see and there was a 700 dollar difference in price. Right know it is all going to be motor. He wants to supercharge it later on down the road, but there is no telling when that will be. So what trick flow heads will be best. He is really wanting to keep the bottom end alone if possible, but if he has to he will build it. If this is the case what should we look for. Also not wanting to bore it out. It's like I told him as well the more power you want the more money you will have to spend. I looked at the cam gears as well, but know nothing about them or even how to set them up. Also looked at some cams, but not sure what ones would be best. I know virtually nothing about these motors. So I'm having to research things just to try a learn about them. I would like to be around the 450hp on the motor alone if not closer to 500hp, but what ever I can get out of it. I'm a GM tech and feel that I can build it and figure it out with little to no problems, but just don't know much about these motors and nothing about the performance aspects of them. So there is the skinny on it. Also it is a 5 spd car, and he is wanting to convert it to the 6spd. It already has the trick flow upper plenum and t/b on it. Upgraded clutch quadrant and cable, center force clutch set up and under drive pulleys. Once again thanks for all the help. Just let me know what you guys think. The more specific the better. THANKS!!!

scooter0803

P.S. This motor would be what they consider the romeo motor correct?

[97S281]

No, if it's a 99 or 2000 motor it should be a windsor.

The heads I have for sale are windsor heads as well.

[scooter0803]

I can't send pm's yet due to not having 5 post yet. Please send me a PM with all info and prices. thanks.

scooter0803

[TheHambone]

The romeo and windsor heads are pretty much the same.. Valve cover bolt patterns are diff and yes if you want to get technical there is a very slight difference, but they will both bolt up and be fine, same blocks no matter what, no reason to go hunting a certain head unless he is just being picky about keeping the same valve covers.

Their are 2 Trick Flow heads for that motor.. A 38cc and a 44cc.. You are comparing a bone stock head to a upgraded valvetrain head on summit. The prices of bone stock to bone stocks are the same. The trick flows also have both windsor and romeo valve cover bolt patterns, so that solves that issue.

Ok, now heres my problem with this guys plan. He wants to make most power possible NA and then still be able to put a blower on it and make tons of power safely. To make a bunch of power NA, its going to need added compression, thats the first thing you need to lower when building for a blower car. The stock compression is 9.8-1.. which already isnt ideal for a bunch of boost. The stock heads are 42cc... so with trick flows, your either going to up or lower the compression. The 44cc head will render a lower compression better suited for boost.. 9.4-1 i believe... the 38cc heads will render more compression, better for NA, but pushing it for boost.. something like 10.5-1 i believe.

The first problem with this plan is.. 450-500hp NA is unheard of on the 4.6's.. they need boost, there just isnt enough displacement there to make that kinda power NA. Im not saying its possible, but it most certainly isnt in the "normal persons" budget. It would take MAJOR compression to make that kinda hp NA, certainly not compression that you can just slap a blower on when you get bored. I notice you said you're a GM tech.. and it seems like those LS motors have rubbed off on you. Us 2v guys cant just do a heads and cam combo and put 450 at the wheels. We wish.. I still muffle dirty words under breath every time I think about it, but we chose a 2v so we have to live with it.

When you "build" a car... you need a long term plan, and you need to build toward your long term plan. If he knows he wants a blower later, then he need to build toward that blower now. Compression ratio of 9.4 or close by would be decent for a NA car and still be pretty safe for a blower setup as long as he isnt going to putting 20psi on pump gas to it. 9.0-1 is ideal for boost on these motors, well really mostly any motor. Also, a set of cams that is going to make great power NA... Isnt going to make great power with a blower. A set of cams that will make great power with a blower.. isnt going to make great power NA.. I dunno about you or him, but I wanted to buy cams (500ish) once, and for my long term goal, not to make the most power now and get my by later. Id rather get by now, and really benefit in the end AND only spend the money once. Another thing is.. Its not like the "for blower later cams" arent going to run right on the car now, They just arent going to be the best for the current setup. The cams are the most important part to that motor coming alive, we besides boost. With the wrong cams, and boost.. you'll be scratching your head at dyno day saying WTF is wrong with it. The biggest piece of advice I can give you on this car is.. Plan it.. the whole build.. Set up a budget limit, or final hp goal. Then plan how to get to the final goal the quickest while doing it RIGHT and not spending money on cool parts now.. that are just going to sit on the shelf later..

I could go for days on how to make power on a 2v, but without a budget number or a final hp goal. I cant help much.

[TheHambone]

Also.. If he wants some quick hp.. why not put a blower on it now.. and then build the motor up around it and start adding more boost as the motor gets stronger.

Another idea would be to go turbo instead of blower.. most blowers for that car.. are limited to how much boost they can put out. On a turbo setup.. the possibilities are endless.. a PT42-88 on a correctly built 2v can be capable of 1100+rwhp.. hell more than that really.. Thats where im stopping since that just about my rods limits.

Check out MMR's website.. They are a little high priced, but they are a modular only place that you wont have to sort through all the sbc and bbc parts.

http://modularmustangracing.com/

Another site to look browse around is Lethal

http://www.lethalperformance.com/

[scooter0803]

So then what would be the best choice right now to do. I don't think he has enough at the moment to buy a supercharger or turbo kit. So with out having to do the bottom end what would be the best route and what performance could I see from it. Just as a ball park figure say around 3000 to 3500 dollar range. I'm not sure what he is wanting to spend. thanks for the great info

scooter0803

[TheHambone]

He could buy a supercharger kit for that.. prob make 350-400rwhp depending on pulley..

I just did an install on a friends car with the on3 performance turbo kit.. upgraded to the mp76 turbo, cost 2100 at his door.. I couldnt believe the quality of the "cheap" turbo kit.. No its not a 7000 helion kit.. but Its jam up for the money.. He will need a tubular front suspension, coilover conversion, a fuel system, and a maf to finish up the kit but You could fit that into the 3500 budget.. Im not tryin to tell you this kit is the best kit on the market, but i will say, for the money, and power that can be made with it, its well worth the money, by a long shot..

Check them out.. Turbo Kits for Ford Mustangs

[scooter0803]

Ok i just got of the phone with him and talked him into just putting a supercharger on it. I looked at all the turbo stuff, but don't fell like having to replace the k-member and stuff to install it. He also wants to put the 6 spd trans in it. It is currently a 5 spd. Is there anything major that will need to be changed to install?

scooter0803

[TheHambone]

Only thing I dunno about is the driveshaft length and shifter.. everything else should swap in just fine.. Do a search on the those.. So what blower is he gona go with? Vortech? Procharger? Paxton? Saleen m90? I got a friend thats about to go turbo, going to be selling his saleen s281 blower.. m90.. 10psi pulley.. intake, ect ect.. lemme know if you want some pics or info on it.. I also know a guy selling a KB 2.2 kit with a million accessories to go with it.. cheap too.. lemme know if you want the info

[scooter0803]

Let me know what they want for there kits and I will talk to him. The kit we were looking at was a procharger kit. Mainly because of a good price. Thanks for all your help.

scooter0803

[TheHambone]

Heres a link to the KB...

PFO Mustangs • Login

Kenne Bell 2.2L Supercharger Kit w/ Intercooler for 99-04 GT (will fit a 96-98 with PI heads I would think). This is the top of the line kit, with a much better inlet than the newer 2.1's make, and capable of much more power. This blower is basically the 03 Cobra KB 2.2, but for a 2v. The intercooler setup is the same design as what the 03 Cobras have as well. Kit has around 10k miles on it, and has never had nitrous, methanol or anything else put through it.

The two idlers near the blower pulley are new from Kenne Bell with less than 40 miles on them. This is a newer model (well about as new as it gets for a 2.2) with the vented pulley snout, not the older ones that need a catch can for the snout. Blower was bought brand new, and installed by Modular Power House (at the time, these kits could only be sold & installed by authorized dealers)

Includes
8 Rib Pulley Setup w/ Larger 7.5" Crank Pulley
Big Oval Accufab Cobra Throttle Body
LFP BIG Heat Exchanger for an 03 Cobra
03-04 Cobra Heat Exchanger Brackets ($240-$250 from the dealer)
Reichard Non Slip Pulley
Reichard AC Delete/Manual Tensioner (this basically backs up the existing tensioner)
BGG Performance Gripper Plate
03-04 Cobra MAF to TB Inlet Pipe for oem fit
Gates Belt with 1 year warranty at O'Rilleys (have receipt), with less than 40 miles on it
Original Instruction Book

The kit new was $5400, plus all of the extras, which totals up to nearly $6000. The current problem is, it's using some oil. Kenne Bell said it probably needs seals but said they dont sound like they are real bad yet, and said I should just continue to run it for awhile, but quoted $699 for a rebuild, if I decided to go that route. I found another company that rebuilds all kinds of blowers, that will do it for $635, here is the link http://www.thehighspeedlab.com/catalogkb004.html

I have noticed a little oil build up on the front of the blower, so it's possible it may just be the front cover leaking some oil under boost (common problem), which is easy to fix, just need to remove cover, and reseal. If it's an internal seal (worst case scenario), it's $635-$699 to fix it, depending on who you go with.

It is NOT down on power, and makes an instant 18-20 PSI when my foot hits the floor. Your motor combo could yield more or less boost. It's like a KB 03 Cobra, but in a lighter car. It is VERY fun to drive. Previous owner of car said it put down 605 rwhp (Im not sure if thats SAE, STD, or Actual) on pump gas, and 647 rwhp on race gas, then it ran out of fuel system with the combo in my signature. It also made 589 rwhp on another Dynojet on the pump gas tune, but with race gas in it, which made it run rich (he forgot to switch tunes).

My reason for selling, I have wanted to do a turbo, or big centrifugal & nitrous setup since before I bought this car, and it already has the motor for it, and the rear gears for it (for the turbo setup anyway). Regardless of it leaking (especially with Kenne Bell putting my mind at ease on the oil consumption at the moment, saying to go ahead and run it, just keep an eye on the oil level) I was going to put it up for sale when it got warm enough to work on the car again. The blower doesnt knock either.

Also, I just swapped to a 117.7" belt, as per Kenne Bell's recommendation, compared to the 119" belt the previous owner of the car (as well as myself) had been running. It fits MUCH better, and should help with slip, since it's not near as loose.

This blower setup can be pullied down and ran on a stock motor, with PLENTY of room to grow, unlike some of the smaller kits out there.

Blower is still on the car, and being driven daily, can be removed whenever.

Sell for $2900 local, will consider trade for an HP Twin Kit (no k member, a arms, or coilovers needed, just a complete kit T50, or T57's)....but I prefer to get cash, so I can decide what Im going to do next. Have even considered parting, or selling the car and getting a done up fox as well. I cant make up my mind completely.

SERIOUS INQUIRIES ONLY

I have some current pics, as well as some pics from previous owner of the car when the blower was going on. Current pics kind of suck, because it was in the shade and my camera flashed during the day.

If you want to see the pics your going to have to register on the site..


As far as the saleen kit goes.. my buddy wants 2400 for it.. complete kit.. ill have to get some pics from him for ya

[scooter0803]

I will talk to him to night when he gets of and ask him what he wants to do.

[97S281]

Originally Posted by scooter0803 I can't send pm's yet due to not having 5 post yet. Please send me a PM with all info and prices. thanks. scooter0803

PM sent.

[2vPOWA]

I have got the mods in my sig and I am putting down 400 and 400 on a stock bottom end. There are some guys who run around with about 460 or so to the wheels but i prefer to keep it alittle safer than that. If he is planning to go with some kind of forced induction and he has deep pockets I would suggest he looks into picking up a forged short block. They are built with different power ratings as well. modularheadshop.com Did my stage 2 port and polish of my heads and he put on my comp 270 cams. If you look in the new member forum under "NEW GUY" you will see a soundclip of my car so he can get a decent idea as to how the cam will make it sound. If he has any questions tell him to feel free to PM me. The last word of adviceI can give you is make sure he finds a reputable tuner to do the tuning.