[Goblin]

Originally Posted by mustangmanic Hmmm... lets see what the hell i'm talking about. I FREAKING ROAD RACE! I FREAKING WORK WITH KENNY BROWN! MY DAD's BEEN ROADRACING FOR OVER 20 YEARS! So i know exactly what i'm talking about!!! Common rule of thumb, you dont stroke a road racing engine... its not the thing to do! Stroke adds much more TQ and Bore adds much more HP, its proven. You want hp over TQ in road racing (you need TQ, but not as much as you need hp). IDC what you personally think, its what i freakin know, so dont bash on the true facts pal... cus i know what the hell i'm talking about. i said, bore .20 over because i have no idea how much you can bore a 4.6L safely... i've heard 302 and i've heard 331 so idk. A good road racing engine is better left with the stock displacement or a bore (not a stroke). Your RPM's are gonna be above 3k the whole time anyways, if you know how to drive. and .20 over will add a ton of hp with the right heads and cams...

Originally Posted by mustangmanic and if you feel that your car is really really lacking in the TQ department, gears will do it for you... you rarely ever see speeds over 110mph on an publicly open road racing course, so 4.10's would be a great gear. On my local course (former F1 track at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway) i see speeds in excess of 135, so i'm either sticking with my 3.27's or 3.73's... but with the 3.73's will run out of 4th on the big embanked straight... i already run out of 4th and have to shift into 5th on the straight (not something you want to do while racing).

What i personaly think? I dont "think" i know anything when it comes to road racing. What you know? You obviously know little about engines, and how they make HP. A .020 will do nothing for HP... THAT is proven. Show me a dyno chart where a .020 or .030 over bore produced usable power. I understand and know that leaving an engine at, or close to stock displacement is beneficial for road racing, but stroking an engine is also beneficial for increasing HP. Increasing the stroke of an engine produces more HP than boring an engine. Sure, you increase torque.... but you cant increase horsepower without increasing torque.

You want HP over torque in road racing? LOL... Its amazing how so many people think HP and torque seperately exsist. You need to produce a certain amount of torque, to produce a certain amount of HP. To produce more HP, you need more torque. You cant have more, without the other. This is unless.. your talking about revving these engines past 10,000rpms (which i know most SCCA, Grand am, AIX engines dont). You work for Kenny Brown? And that means what? Kenny Brown sells suspension, not engines.. or engine parts. Frankly, i couldnt care where you work... your job has nothing to do with your intelligence level.

Im not bashing on true facts pal, you need to get your facts straight.

[ModMustang97GT]

You have a friend with 4v heads on a 2V block. I have been told time and time again that it is not possible. Do you know what all he had to do to get the accessories to work right? And what the issues were? If that is possible, the 4V heads are far superior to anything else you can buy for these cars. something like 50% more flow than ported PI heads.

[Goblin]

I'll shoot him an email to get all the details, and then post it here for you.

[ModMustang97GT]

Thanks, I would love to get a set of 4V for my car. I have a set of PI's laying around, I just don't want to go through the hastle of swaping them if its not going to be worth it down the road.

[mustangmanic]

Originally Posted by Goblin What i personaly think? I dont "think" i know anything when it comes to road racing. What you know? You obviously know little about engines, and how they make HP. A .020 will do nothing for HP... THAT is proven. Show me a dyno chart where a .020 or .030 over bore produced usable power. I understand and know that leaving an engine at, or close to stock displacement is beneficial for road racing, but stroking an engine is also beneficial for increasing HP. Increasing the stroke of an engine produces more HP than boring an engine. Sure, you increase torque.... but you cant increase horsepower without increasing torque. You want HP over torque in road racing? LOL... Its amazing how so many people think HP and torque seperately exsist. You need to produce a certain amount of torque, to produce a certain amount of HP. To produce more HP, you need more torque. You cant have more, without the other. This is unless.. your talking about revving these engines past 10,000rpms (which i know most SCCA, Grand am, AIX engines dont). You work for Kenny Brown? And that means what? Kenny Brown sells suspension, not engines.. or engine parts. Frankly, i couldnt care where you work... your job has nothing to do with your intelligence level. Im not bashing on true facts pal, you need to get your facts straight.

christ man! I have my facts straight. I'm all about road racing! I know almost all about it! And with different heads, pistons, cams, you'll produce all kinds of different hp to tq numbers... i know what they both are, i'm not a dumbass.

TQ is how fast your car has the ability to accelerate (pull)... and hp is how fast your car is able to go into plain terms (providing a good set of gears).

You sound like your too wrapped up in drag racing... its plain and simple YOU DONT STROKE ROAD RACING ENGINES! TQ isnt as important as the peak HP! Any one who road races will tell you the same thing.

Most of the time while racing, you're out of your peak TQ anyways... the only acceleration you're doing in road racing is when the green flag signles at the beginning... your rpms are gonna be outta the peak TQ the whole rest of the time... its common sense, even while turning.

And you must not have any idea who kenny brown is. He doesnt just build suspension... he helped steve saleen created the very 1st saleen mustang, he's built engines and been racing for his whole life... so he know's more than you'll ever know about NA road racing engines and drivetrain.

I dont understand why you have to be such an asshole... you try to sound all intelligent, but then you have to include all these rude remarks to try and piss me off and be a jerk. Those comments arnt necessary... you can respond to this however you want, but i ask that you dont be rude to me... its all opinons, you dont have to try and put someone down that you dont agree with.

It wont matter though... you'll stick with your opinons and i'll fight until i die for mine... so this is pointless

[mustangmanic]

o and yes i know. a .20 bore wont add shit, but you pair it with heads and cams and you'll add alot. I didnt say bore alone... i even said heads and cams along with it.

[ModMustang97GT]

So there isn't much purpose other than unshrouding your valves to overbore? interesting.

[StangAddiction]

Horsepower is calcuated by torque...
Horsepower is a measurement of torque over time.

At 5252 rpms, torque and horsepower are equal. Below this, torque is ALWAYS greater than horsepower, and above this horsepower is ALWAYS greater than torque...this is law...there are no exceptions...EVER

Horsepower = (Torque x Engine Speed(RPM))/5252

Goblin is right when he says there is no power without torque...

[Goblin]

Originally Posted by mustangmanic christ man! I have my facts straight. I'm all about road racing! I know almost all about it! And with different heads, pistons, cams, you'll produce all kinds of different hp to tq numbers... i know what they both are, i'm not a dumbass. TQ is how fast your car has the ability to accelerate (pull)... and hp is how fast your car is able to go into plain terms (providing a good set of gears). You sound like your too wrapped up in drag racing... its plain and simple YOU DONT STROKE ROAD RACING ENGINES! TQ isnt as important as the peak HP! Any one who road races will tell you the same thing. Most of the time while racing, you're out of your peak TQ anyways... the only acceleration you're doing in road racing is when the green flag signles at the beginning... your rpms are gonna be outta the peak TQ the whole rest of the time... its common sense, even while turning. And you must not have any idea who kenny brown is. He doesnt just build suspension... he helped steve saleen created the very 1st saleen mustang, he's built engines and been racing for his whole life... so he know's more than you'll ever know about NA road racing engines and drivetrain. I dont understand why you have to be such an asshole... you try to sound all intelligent, but then you have to include all these rude remarks to try and piss me off and be a jerk. Those comments arnt necessary... you can respond to this however you want, but i ask that you dont be rude to me... its all opinons, you dont have to try and put someone down that you dont agree with. It wont matter though... you'll stick with your opinons and i'll fight until i die for mine... so this is pointless

Originally Posted by mustangmanic o and yes i know. a .20 bore wont add shit, but you pair it with heads and cams and you'll add alot. I didnt say bore alone... i even said heads and cams along with it.

Exactly how am i being an asshole or jerk? Please point to where i was being a jerk.. or asshole, or picking on you with rude remarks.. and i will apologize. Trying to sound intelligent? Where am i trying to sound intelligent? Heck, did you even read what i wrote? It seems like you feel that im arguing about road racing and such, when in actuallity, im not. My sole argument is engines, and the science and mathmatics behind them when talking about HP and Torque.

If you understand how horsepower is produced, you will infact understand that increasing the torque value, will increase horsepower. Would you kindly explain to me how to build an engine that only produces HP and no torque? A .020 overbore still will do nothing for power, even with heads and a cam, and good induction system, like increasing the throw (stroke) of a crankshaft. If you road racers refuse to stroke an engine, because "it will produce to much torque" then you are neglecting a great increase in HP, plain and simple. You claim that HP is what road racing is all about... fine, i wont argue that. Because of the nature of racing, more HP means more competition, right? In order for ANY piston engine to produce more HP at ANY rpm, you MUST increase the torque value. The best way to increase torque, is to increase the leverage on the crankshaft (or increase the throw/stroke). This is not just a given in drag racing.. this is for all piston engines in the world.

Im not trying to be an asshole, or a jerk.. so dont take it that way. I would appreciate it if you didnt use those names toward me. If i was rude.. im sorry. You dont need to come back with more rudeness and disrepect. Also, this isnt my "opinion"... these are facts about engines. I know who Kenny Brown is, and i know the history... but really, it doesnt matter to me if you work for him.. i will think of you only as you present yourself here. I could work for John Force, and still not have a clue about Top Fuel engines, or chassis setup. So why does working for someone give you more credibility? It doesnt, so dont throw that in anyones face. I dont plan to argue this forever, because its not an opinion. If you dont believe me, or just plain dont want to believe me.. do me the favor of seeing for yourself. Use that equation, and sample the numbers for yourself.

Originally Posted by StangAddiction Horsepower is calcuated by torque... Horsepower is a measurement of torque over time. At 5252 rpms, torque and horsepower are equal. Below this, torque is ALWAYS greater than horsepower, and above this horsepower is ALWAYS greater than torque...this is law...there are no exceptions...EVER Horsepower = (Torque x Engine Speed(RPM))/5252 Goblin is right when he says there is no power without torque...

Thank you. I was going to present that formula to him, but you took care of that already.

[mustangmanic]

Originally Posted by Goblin Exactly how am i being an asshole or jerk? Please point to where i was being a jerk.. or asshole, or picking on you with rude remarks.. and i will apologize. Trying to sound intelligent? Where am i trying to sound intelligent? Heck, did you even read what i wrote? It seems like you feel that im arguing about road racing and such, when in actuallity, im not. My sole argument is engines, and the science and mathmatics behind them when talking about HP and Torque. If you understand how horsepower is produced, you will infact understand that increasing the torque value, will increase horsepower. Would you kindly explain to me how to build an engine that only produces HP and no torque? A .020 overbore still will do nothing for power, even with heads and a cam, and good induction system, like increasing the throw (stroke) of a crankshaft. If you road racers refuse to stroke an engine, because "it will produce to much torque" then you are neglecting a great increase in HP, plain and simple. You claim that HP is what road racing is all about... fine, i wont argue that. Because of the nature of racing, more HP means more competition, right? In order for ANY piston engine to produce more HP at ANY rpm, you MUST increase the torque value. The best way to increase torque, is to increase the leverage on the crankshaft (or increase the throw/stroke). This is not just a given in drag racing.. this is for all piston engines in the world. Im not trying to be an asshole, or a jerk.. so dont take it that way. I would appreciate it if you didnt use those names toward me. If i was rude.. im sorry. You dont need to come back with more rudeness and disrepect. Also, this isnt my "opinion"... these are facts about engines. I know who Kenny Brown is, and i know the history... but really, it doesnt matter to me if you work for him.. i will think of you only as you present yourself here. I could work for John Force, and still not have a clue about Top Fuel engines, or chassis setup. So why does working for someone give you more credibility? It doesnt, so dont throw that in anyones face. I dont plan to argue this forever, because its not an opinion. If you dont believe me, or just plain dont want to believe me.. do me the favor of seeing for yourself. Use that equation, and sample the numbers for yourself. Thank you. I was going to present that formula to him, but you took care of that already.

noooo arrgggg! i dont think you getting what i'm trying to say. I know how tq and hp applies to engines and how they work.

What i mean to say is, that in road racing, Peak Hp is more important than peak tq... because in road racing, your going to be out of that peak TQ range... so it isnt as important to build an engine with a shit load of TQ... i know what you mean, how TQ applies to HP... and how you cant have alot of HP with out a lot of tq.

Its all in how you build the engine... every set up is different... there are some 4.6L here putting out 350rwtq with 400rwhp. Some with 500rwtq and 400rwhp (kinda like AC's car).... different applications will have different effects on the TQ and HP numbers....

So what i'm trying to say is, in RR, its more important to have an engine that will produce more HP than TQ... You want to go fast, not accelerate fast (that's important after you round a corner, but that's what gears are for).

think about it like this... if you have too much power (TQ) and you coming out of a corner and its in the upper rpm range... ur gonna slide out.

I'm just stating what i've learned from kenny and my father... i may not be 100% right, but the stuff i've learned i've learned from professional in the field.

I'm done argueing. This is really going nowhere fast, just doing circles around a RR track lol.

[ModMustang97GT]

Actually, I may know what it is he is talking about. It may not be the Torque that he is saying is the issue, but rather the side loading and stress on the parts that results from stroking. Since the rod and stroke of our engines is already about the same, which is usually as far as you want to go, its hard to increase stroke at all without stressing the parts greatly. And when you are trying to run really high RPM's like you do in road racing. You don't want to be puting any more stress on those rods and sidewalls than you need to. That would make sense. But as far as not wanting your engine to produce torque, that doesn't make much sense. more torque is better, its just a question of how you get it.

[ModMustang97GT]

So youa re saying that if you build a low RPM Torque engine, you will have a tendancy to lose traction more than if you build a High RPM, High Horse Power, low torque engine. You want more toque and more power always. Higher peak torque means higher HP. You don't want an engine that makes Huge Torque and Low HP. That leads to awesome acceleration and bad traction, with no upper end.

That about sum it up?

[Goblin]

Originally Posted by mustangmanic noooo arrgggg! i dont think you getting what i'm trying to say. I know how tq and hp applies to engines and how they work. What i mean to say is, that in road racing, Peak Hp is more important than peak tq... because in road racing, your going to be out of that peak TQ range... so it isnt as important to build an engine with a shit load of TQ... i know what you mean, how TQ applies to HP... and how you cant have alot of HP with out a lot of tq. Its all in how you build the engine... every set up is different... there are some 4.6L here putting out 350rwtq with 400rwhp. Some with 500rwtq and 400rwhp (kinda like AC's car).... different applications will have different effects on the TQ and HP numbers.... So what i'm trying to say is, in RR, its more important to have an engine that will produce more HP than TQ... You want to go fast, not accelerate fast (that's important after you round a corner, but that's what gears are for). think about it like this... if you have too much power (TQ) and you coming out of a corner and its in the upper rpm range... ur gonna slide out. I'm just stating what i've learned from kenny and my father... i may not be 100% right, but the stuff i've learned i've learned from professional in the field. I'm done argueing. This is really going nowhere fast, just doing circles around a RR track lol.

Okay. Every piston engine that revs above 5252rpm will make more HP than torque. Almost every mustang engine you lay eyes on revs above 5000rpm, so every one of them will make more HP than torque. That is common knowledge, and it applies to all types of racing, not just Road Racing.

What i need you to do, is stop looking at peak numbers for second, and start looking at the curve of torque and hp. Even after the peak numbers, the more torque you produce, the more work (or HP) the engine will produce. Sustaining speed? Thats a direct cause of HP, and the direct cause of HP is torque. And what exactly do you think gears do? Gears multipy effective torque. But... i thought torque was a no-no?

I intially called you out on the spot because of your very first post. I cant help but point out the direct contradiction. You want more HP, but you dont want more torque... that makes no sense. You need both, and even if you want the engine to produce more HP than torque (which almost all engines do) you still need a good torque number to produce a high peak HP number. This all started when you said stroking an engine was a no-no for road racing engines, because it produces too much torque. Instead, you insisted that an "overbore" was a better way to increase horsepower. My sole response to that was, and still is... Increasing stroke is the best way to increase HP, and overboring will never yeild the same gain.

If stroking a road racing engine is a no-no, then why are so many AIX mustang racers running stroked windsors? Hmmmm, maybe it has something to do with more displacement being able to produce more HP! Say it aint so.

[SWEET2KSTANG]

a lot of points brought up here, too much for me too read. there are points to each opinion. one factor for each person is driving style.

[StangAddiction]

Originally Posted by SWEET2KSTANG a lot of points brought up here, too much for me too read. there are points to each opinion. one factor for each person is driving style.

+1...to each his own...

Some drivers can handle loads of torque, some prefer top end power...its all a personal preference...

[ModMustang97GT]

Anyone know what it cost to get a set of stock 03-04 cobra heads?

[StangAddiction]

They shouldnt be more than 1-1.5K(if that much) for the assembled pair considering entry-level ported heads assebled run right at about $2K. More serious heads can go as high as $5K...

[mustangmanic]

Originally Posted by StangAddiction They shouldnt be more than 1-1.5K(if that much) for the assembled pair considering entry-level ported heads assebled run right at about $2K. More serious heads can go as high as $5K...

+1 They arnt cheap like the 2v heads are... dont expect to spend less than 2k for some good quality heads