The Official Suspension Guide

ReverendDexter · March 12th, 2009, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by HBK_2007

so whats the difference between a 3 and 5 link?

3 link only has one upper control arm. 5 link has 2. Both run a panhard or watts link.

Steeda called their product a "5 link" to differentiate it from the stock 4-link setup, though usually you don't count the panhard/watts when you're counting "links".

The steeda setup had (effectively) much longer UCAs, that were attached further out than stock on the chassis side, and further out and back on the axle side. It was still triangulated, but much less so. For whatever reason, it didn't fare well in racing when compared to the various torque links, and the hard core crowd seem to shy away from them (and Steeda products in general).

HBK_2007 · March 13th, 2009, 12:51 AM

so torque arm is still better

ReverendDexter · March 13th, 2009, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by HBK_2007

so torque arm is still better

Torque arm is better than the Steeda 5 link, yes.

Unfortunately, with EvM closing down, I'm not sure if anyone makes a decent 3-link anymore. This isn't to say they don't, just that I'm not sure of who makes 'em.

Personally, I was sold on their 3-link being better than a torque arm for the way that I use my car.

HBK_2007 · March 13th, 2009, 01:20 AM

well once i can start riding my ninja (i fucking snowed monday) ill get my car in the garage and check shit out. see how hard it would be to make my own 3 link

ReverendDexter · March 13th, 2009, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by HBK_2007

well once i can start riding my ninja (i fucking snowed monday) ill get my car in the garage and check shit out. see how hard it would be to make my own 3 link

Go here: Corner-Carvers Forums - Powered by vBulletin

Don't worry about signing up or posting, just read. Near as I know, that's the BEST suspension forum on the 'net, and there's a LOT of good Mustang info on there.

HBK_2007 · March 13th, 2009, 01:49 AM

aiight, any specific threads i should start with?

ReverendDexter · March 13th, 2009, 01:53 AM

Here's a good one that talks about the Steeda 5-link: Steeda 5-link? - Corner-Carvers Forums

I'd hit the search pretty hard... 3-link, tri-link, torque arm, all these things you're talking about.

HBK_2007 · March 13th, 2009, 01:59 AM

lol, that just happened to be the very first one i opened

ModMustang97GT · March 13th, 2009, 01:54 PM

The only problem I would see with getting a 3 link would be where do you put the 3rd link? In the mustang there isn't as good a place for it as there is on the old school muscle cars. I'd be worried about how much fab work you would have to do.

ReverendDexter · March 13th, 2009, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT

The only problem I would see with getting a 3 link would be where do you put the 3rd link? In the mustang there isn't as good a place for it as there is on the old school muscle cars. I'd be worried about how much fab work you would have to do.

It actually wasn't that bad. The EvM tri-link setup had a brace that mounted to the UCA mount points on the axle side, then another that mounted between the UCA mounts on the chassis side. I believe that you may have had to drill a hole into the passenger cabin that was under the rear seat, but there was NO fab work involved with their setup.

Needless to say, I'm *really* frustrated they went out of business.

HBK_2007 · March 13th, 2009, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter

It actually wasn't that bad. The EvM tri-link setup had a brace that mounted to the UCA mount points on the axle side, then another that mounted between the UCA mounts on the chassis side. I believe that you may have had to drill a hole into the passenger cabin that was under the rear seat, but there was NO fab work involved with their setup.

Needless to say, I'm *really* frustrated they went out of business.

wouldnt happen to have a pic would u?

ModMustang97GT · March 19th, 2009, 03:34 PM

Actually, I looked it up. The system looked ok. But I wondered about the strength of the mount locations. The chronic issue with our stangs is that the passenger cabin is used as a structural point, but its really just sheet metal. So the 3 link mounting to the passenger cabin creates an issue. The wheels are now transferring 50% of their power to the passenger cabin, which is a flimsy sheet metal box. Several people had their passenger cabin sheet metal ripped open by that tri-link set up. It was a promissing design, but it required some support from the chassis that it didn't have. There were lots of bracing packages for this system, but naturally. You can only bandage some things so much, its still broken. If you built a support cross beam, you could potentially set up a better 3 link. but you need the upper link to be equal in length to the bottom two. The bottom line is, there is not a very good way to implement the 3 link on our cars. The chassis doesn't support it. A 5 link would work, but its alot of parts and it depends on a good bassis, which would require more fabwork on your control arm mounts. I think that torque arm is pretty much the safest way to go and still be most efficient. Unless you get into some really fancy fab work.

ModMustang97GT · March 19th, 2009, 03:39 PM

The best system would really be to have 2 LCA's that connected to the axle directly on the end of the arm. You would also require the LCA to be very strong, and the torque box to be re-inforced. A Cage, or really heavy duty subframe re-inforcement set up to strengthen the torque boxes enough. Then you would put on a watts link or pan hard bar, and it should work. But, you are still dealing with the main issue. The suspension set up initially is weak, and you need to overcome the insufficient links to the chassis one way or another. Be that a torque arm that is welded to your sub frames, a re-inforced torque box and beefed up 4 or 5 link. All the options are convoluted and round about, because the system we are trying to fix, was flawed to begin with.

ModMustang97GT · April 13th, 2009, 05:01 PM

Bump Steer Drawing and explanation

Here is a drawing I recently made illustrating the use and purpose of the bump steer kit.

The first is the stock set up. The second is the lowered angles. As you can see the A arms and end-links are already at an angle. if you go over a bump, you will force them even more verticle, this will max out their range, and the car's front tires will toe inwards. Meaning, they will both turn in twords the car, if you happen to be turning at this time, you will lose the ability to turn atleast one of the tires.
The final picture is a lowered car with the bumpsteer kit. The kit as you can see is blue, and corrects the angle, putting the end links, back in parallel with the road, giving you desireable handling again. This doesn't seem to come in to play until you have a 1.5-2" inch drop. And at the 1.5" it, is only noticeable in pretty extreme suspension travel. Something you would be close to bottoming out on anyway. Hope this helps out.

BAzombie · April 23rd, 2009, 11:56 PM

WOW ... I deserve a cookie, I just read all 194 posts in here. My brain hurts.

I learned a pile in here guys. Best thing I got is I'm glad suspension isn't on my list until next spring. I got a lot more researching to do. Full sfc's will be this summer tho.

Side-note: I think simon has 3/4 of his 88 posts in this thread.

v606er · April 24th, 2009, 12:46 AM

a write up like this on s197's would be nice

by the way, griggs is Griggs Racing Products not - in it

ReverendDexter · April 24th, 2009, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by v606er

a write up like this on s197's would be nice

by the way, griggs is Griggs Racing Products not - in it

I have to admit, I don't know much when it comes to S197 suspension, other that it was revised and has a panhard bar stock. With the popularity of the platform, though, parts are out there from all the usual companies and then some.

ModMustang97GT · April 24th, 2009, 01:57 PM

Teh rev is right. In general there are more parts for the s197. They have a stronger frame that doesn't require re-inforcement from SFCs. And they have a panhard bar stock so, you can replace it with an adjustable piece if you plan on lowering the car much. Other than that, the set up is virtuall identical. The shocks and struts are all true macpherson, meaning they have the spring around the shock already. All of these things put together, make it a much easier platform to start with. My only complaint about it is the weight. Otherwise it is in general a better car. I might do some reading for you on the s197 and see what I find. In general its the same set up with the following few points excluded.

The chassis is stiff enough that it doesn't need re-inforcement from SFC's.

The rear already has a PHB, so the only real upgrade needed is an adjustable bar.

The shock/strut and spring set up is already the coil over type. So the only true benefit to the coil overs, is height adjustability. Unlink the sn95's and new edge that actually benefit by moving the contact point of the spring to the shock, making for greater leverage. In other words. you gain more in the sn95 and new edge's than height adjustability with coil overs. The s197's only gain height adjustability. (hope that makes sense).

HBK_2007 · April 24th, 2009, 09:23 PM

did they change the suspension any from the '05-'09 to the '10+?

ReverendDexter · April 26th, 2009, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by HBK_2007

did they change the suspension any from the '05-'09 to the '10+?

Nope. Only changes for the '10 were aesthetic.

March 13th, 2009, 12:51 AM	#182
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 2009 Ford Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,676 iTrader: 0 reviews	so torque arm is still better __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, muffler delete

March 13th, 2009, 01:20 AM	#184
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 2009 Ford Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,676 iTrader: 0 reviews	well once i can start riding my ninja (i fucking snowed monday) ill get my car in the garage and check shit out. see how hard it would be to make my own 3 link __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, muffler delete

March 13th, 2009, 01:49 AM	#186
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 2009 Ford Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,676 iTrader: 0 reviews	aiight, any specific threads i should start with? __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, muffler delete

March 13th, 2009, 01:53 AM	#187
ReverendDexter Priest of the Car Gods Clapped-out '90 GT 'vert ~5.5 seconds off TTOD :( Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rohnert Park, CA Posts: 13,233 iTrader: 0 reviews	Here's a good one that talks about the Steeda 5-link: Steeda 5-link? - Corner-Carvers Forums I'd hit the search pretty hard... 3-link, tri-link, torque arm, all these things you're talking about. __________________ O o /¯/______________________ \|BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!! \_\ Buy my Bronco, special deal for MM folks

March 13th, 2009, 01:59 AM	#188
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 2009 Ford Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,676 iTrader: 0 reviews	lol, that just happened to be the very first one i opened __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, muffler delete

March 13th, 2009, 01:54 PM	#189
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,598 iTrader: 0 reviews	The only problem I would see with getting a 3 link would be where do you put the 3rd link? In the mustang there isn't as good a place for it as there is on the old school muscle cars. I'd be worried about how much fab work you would have to do. __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark 04' PI Motor Author of The Official Suspension Guide

March 19th, 2009, 03:34 PM	#192
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,598 iTrader: 0 reviews	Actually, I looked it up. The system looked ok. But I wondered about the strength of the mount locations. The chronic issue with our stangs is that the passenger cabin is used as a structural point, but its really just sheet metal. So the 3 link mounting to the passenger cabin creates an issue. The wheels are now transferring 50% of their power to the passenger cabin, which is a flimsy sheet metal box. Several people had their passenger cabin sheet metal ripped open by that tri-link set up. It was a promissing design, but it required some support from the chassis that it didn't have. There were lots of bracing packages for this system, but naturally. You can only bandage some things so much, its still broken. If you built a support cross beam, you could potentially set up a better 3 link. but you need the upper link to be equal in length to the bottom two. The bottom line is, there is not a very good way to implement the 3 link on our cars. The chassis doesn't support it. A 5 link would work, but its alot of parts and it depends on a good bassis, which would require more fabwork on your control arm mounts. I think that torque arm is pretty much the safest way to go and still be most efficient. Unless you get into some really fancy fab work. __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark 04' PI Motor Author of The Official Suspension Guide

March 19th, 2009, 03:39 PM	#193
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,598 iTrader: 0 reviews	The best system would really be to have 2 LCA's that connected to the axle directly on the end of the arm. You would also require the LCA to be very strong, and the torque box to be re-inforced. A Cage, or really heavy duty subframe re-inforcement set up to strengthen the torque boxes enough. Then you would put on a watts link or pan hard bar, and it should work. But, you are still dealing with the main issue. The suspension set up initially is weak, and you need to overcome the insufficient links to the chassis one way or another. Be that a torque arm that is welded to your sub frames, a re-inforced torque box and beefed up 4 or 5 link. All the options are convoluted and round about, because the system we are trying to fix, was flawed to begin with. __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark 04' PI Motor Author of The Official Suspension Guide

April 13th, 2009, 05:01 PM	#194
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,598 iTrader: 0 reviews	Bump Steer Drawing and explanation Here is a drawing I recently made illustrating the use and purpose of the bump steer kit. The first is the stock set up. The second is the lowered angles. As you can see the A arms and end-links are already at an angle. if you go over a bump, you will force them even more verticle, this will max out their range, and the car's front tires will toe inwards. Meaning, they will both turn in twords the car, if you happen to be turning at this time, you will lose the ability to turn atleast one of the tires. The final picture is a lowered car with the bumpsteer kit. The kit as you can see is blue, and corrects the angle, putting the end links, back in parallel with the road, giving you desireable handling again. This doesn't seem to come in to play until you have a 1.5-2" inch drop. And at the 1.5" it, is only noticeable in pretty extreme suspension travel. Something you would be close to bottoming out on anyway. Hope this helps out. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark 04' PI Motor Author of The Official Suspension Guide

April 23rd, 2009, 11:56 PM	#195
BAzombie Regular 1996 GT Convertible 13.88@100.71 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Queensbury, NY Posts: 360 iTrader: 0 reviews	WOW ... I deserve a cookie, I just read all 194 posts in here. My brain hurts. I learned a pile in here guys. Best thing I got is I'm glad suspension isn't on my list until next spring. I got a lot more researching to do. Full sfc's will be this summer tho. Side-note: I think simon has 3/4 of his 88 posts in this thread. __________________ Mods: Katzkin Leather, MMR stage II heads w/PI cams, PI intake, Accufab 75mm TB & Plenum, CAI, Ram HDX clutch, Pacesetter LT's & X pipe, Pypes hi-flo cats, Flowmaster cat back,3.73 gears, Sct SF3 tuner, Mamba M2's

April 24th, 2009, 01:57 PM	#198
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,598 iTrader: 0 reviews	Teh rev is right. In general there are more parts for the s197. They have a stronger frame that doesn't require re-inforcement from SFCs. And they have a panhard bar stock so, you can replace it with an adjustable piece if you plan on lowering the car much. Other than that, the set up is virtuall identical. The shocks and struts are all true macpherson, meaning they have the spring around the shock already. All of these things put together, make it a much easier platform to start with. My only complaint about it is the weight. Otherwise it is in general a better car. I might do some reading for you on the s197 and see what I find. In general its the same set up with the following few points excluded. The chassis is stiff enough that it doesn't need re-inforcement from SFC's. The rear already has a PHB, so the only real upgrade needed is an adjustable bar. The shock/strut and spring set up is already the coil over type. So the only true benefit to the coil overs, is height adjustability. Unlink the sn95's and new edge that actually benefit by moving the contact point of the spring to the shock, making for greater leverage. In other words. you gain more in the sn95 and new edge's than height adjustability with coil overs. The s197's only gain height adjustability. (hope that makes sense). __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark 04' PI Motor Author of The Official Suspension Guide

April 24th, 2009, 09:23 PM	#199
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 2009 Ford Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,676 iTrader: 0 reviews	did they change the suspension any from the '05-'09 to the '10+? __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, muffler delete

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