[dcook_14]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter My understanding is that the torque arm setup grips HARD for launching due to the instant center it provides. However if you're just doing drag racing, the additional cost over adjustable uppers and lowers probably isn't worth it for the gains you would see. The adjustable upppers and lowers will also allow you to change your setup based on the track condition.

I know that I can't have both great cornering and great straight line, but would this setup allow me to have a nice drag car that could also corner decently? I probably won't do any autocross, but I love driving hard on the twisty roads around here, and I don't want to lose that...

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter Depends on what part's adjustable. Usually adjustable LCAs allow you to adjust the height of the spring perch, which would be totally unnecessary with coilovers. Adjustable UCAs are usually adjustable length, which allows you to dial in your pinion angle, which I understand to be HUGE in terms of launch grip.

I've heard the opposite, that pinion angle doesn't really have anything to do with traction. If I understand correctly, pinion angle is just the angle between the differntial and the driveshaft. If it's off quite a bit, then it will rob horsepower. But as far as traction is concerned it doesn't make a difference what angle that u-joint is at. Anyone to confirm or deny?

How would you adjust the pinion angle if you don't have adjustable UCAs? Say if I go to a panhard bar/torque arm setup and got rid of my UCAs alltogether?

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter One thing I will add here is that if you go the 4-link route, make sure to get UCAs with spherical joints, not the kind with poly bushings. Polys are okay in the LCAs, though having a spherical joint on at least one side is definitely preferable.

I've heard this before and will make sure to get the spherical joints

[ModMustang97GT]

As far as cost goes, a nice 4 link set up will be cheaper. And it will not be any worse than it already is at cornering. If you want to take it a step further, the best suspension for both drag and turning is the 3 link for a non-irs.

The torque arm allows you to set the pinion angle to be nothing. Your stock 4 link set up is expecting axle wrap, so the pinion angle is set off so that the axle twists and the angle becomes correct.

If you are confused on the pinion angle effect. Take a socket wrench with a universal on the end, twist it straight on and twist it at an angle. It works, but you are losing a lot of mechanical advantage at an angle.

The torque arm is the bar none best option. But it costs a bit.
Rear coil overs make an adjustable LCA meaningless. (adjustable spring perches that is, not length)

[ferk]

hey hi to all a very nice post and good information given.

[dcook_14]

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT Aftermarket sway bars are too stiff for the coil overs. The job of a sway bar is to make sure that the wheels move together. The problem is, the design of them is simply a bandaid. Ideally you wouldn't have any sway bar at all, but at least in our case, this isn't really an option. So, when you get coil overs, they tell you to keep the stock sway bars. Otherwise, the sway bar will be subtracting from your coil over's ability to absorb the shocks. You are essentially adding the stiffness of the sway bar to your spring rate. But its not in a good way, it is hindering its movement both up and down. So adding to the wheel rate in the up direction, and subtracting in the down direction. There by making the wheel actually track worse. In a corner, an overly stiff sway bar will cause the inside wheel to actually pull up off of the ground in a hard corner. So, the weaker the sway bar can be and still do the job the better. Jazzer went through this all very recently. He didn't want to swap in a stiffer set of springs for his car due to ride quality issues. So he invested in an adjustable sway bar. It helped to dial in some needed Over steer, but it was highly recommended against by Bruce Griggs (owner of griggs racing), because of the negative affect on the wheel rate.

If you suggest sticking with a stock rear sway bar, why does MM include an adjustable one with their Maximum Grip Box which comes with front/rear coilovers? Not implying that you are wrong at all, but I'm just wondering if I ever save up enough money to buy this Grip Box, if I could tell them that I don't want the sway bar to save a little money. Especially since you say I really don't want it with the CO setup.

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT The Rev is right. Your can get a pretty decent all round shock in the D-Spec, but you are not guaranteed the best handling or best launch. The reason being, you can't change your spring rate. You can try and get an all round good set up, but its not going to exceptional at either. Fortunately, with coil overs, it will still be better than any set up you get with the modified macpherson strut.

I'm a newb when it comes to suspension, spring rates, and matched struts/shocks so forgive me if this is really stupid. I'm going to throw an idea out there and you guys (rev, modmustang) are going to tell me why i'm wrong or why this wouldn't work well.

It's my understanding that coilovers use a linear spring design. Why couldn't they put a progressive spring in there? Then if you wanted less spring rate you lengthen it out so the spring is in more of a free position and if you wanted a higher spring rate you could shorten the coilover so the spring was compressed more. Probably be kinda hard to dial in your adjustable shocks, but you could probably get close.

[ReverendDexter]

Originally Posted by dcook_14 It's my understanding that coilovers use a linear spring design. Why couldn't they put a progressive spring in there? Then if you wanted less spring rate you lengthen it out so the spring is in more of a free position and if you wanted a higher spring rate you could shorten the coilover so the spring was compressed more. Probably be kinda hard to dial in your adjustable shocks, but you could probably get close.

Because that's not how coil-overs work.

In adjusting the ride height, you're not adjusting the length of the spring, you're adjusting the length of the strut. The only effect changing the height has on spring rate is due to the amount of weight exhibited on the spring at rest (lowering a corner increases the resting weight at that corner).

[dcook_14]

I knew I was missing something in my logic. Thanks Rev, and thanks for the help in the other thread about the adjustable sway bar. Just trying to get everything straight before I dump a bunch of money on suspension parts, I don't want to get things that don't work well together.

[EscortSportage]

so from what i understand for a top live axle rear end set up, you would do:

PHB
good LCA's
torque arm setup
with coil overs

[dcook_14]

Originally Posted by EscortSportage so from what i understand for a top live axle rear end set up, you would do: PHB good LCA's torque arm setup with coil overs

Really depends what you mean by top (which I assume means best) live axle setup. I'm looking into autox and twisty driving, so yeah the combo you stated will be a good start. Don't forget the SFC and maybe a rollcage, swaybars, and maybe additional things.

This is probably not the way to go for drag racing. I understand it's a lot cheaper and just as effective (if not more effective) to just stick with the four link with good adjustable upper and lower control arms and a nice set of adjustabel shocks/struts and drag springs. SFC and maybe a roll cafe for this setup too though.

[EscortSportage]

i already have front and rear strut/shock tower braces, and through the floor subframe connectors,Eibach sportsline springs,tokico illumina adjustable shocks, MM camber caster plates, now i need to finish up the front and rear suspension ie:

tubular k member
tubular a arms
coil over conversion all 4
and the stuff i mentioned above

[Jazzer The Cat]

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT Aftermarket sway bars are too stiff for the coil overs. The job of a sway bar is to make sure that the wheels move together. The problem is, the design of them is simply a bandaid. Ideally you wouldn't have any sway bar at all, but at least in our case, this isn't really an option. So, when you get coil overs, they tell you to keep the stock sway bars. Otherwise, the sway bar will be subtracting from your coil over's ability to absorb the shocks. You are essentially adding the stiffness of the sway bar to your spring rate. But its not in a good way, it is hindering its movement both up and down. So adding to the wheel rate in the up direction, and subtracting in the down direction. There by making the wheel actually track worse. In a corner, an overly stiff sway bar will cause the inside wheel to actually pull up off of the ground in a hard corner. So, the weaker the sway bar can be and still do the job the better. Jazzer went through this all very recently. He didn't want to swap in a stiffer set of springs for his car due to ride quality issues. So he invested in an adjustable sway bar. It helped to dial in some needed Over steer, but it was highly recommended against by Bruce Griggs (owner of griggs racing), because of the negative affect on the wheel rate.

(but sure he would not be happy about it)

I really only got a bit of disappointment from John, his brother. Unless John had mentioned it to him yesterday, he doesn't even know I have installed the MM sway bar. I actually brought my car up there this past Monday and had him install a brake bias proportioning valve to give me some additional rear brakes. At first, John was not soo happy I had installed the bar, but explained the issue you mentioned above, and said it is not such a big deal. He later test drove my car after his work and said "I can see why you didn't want to change the springs/shocks... you car rides really nice".

I realized then, and repeated it to John, that my car is a full-on DD ride and not willing to have the ride necessary to avoid the need for a heavier sway bar. It is a compromise, to be sure, but no regrets at all

Jazzer

EDIT: 'Tis true that ideally one would not have a sway bar at all and could run without one with the proper set-up

[ModMustang97GT]

Jazzer I thought you said in a PM to me that Bruce was against getting a different sway bar?

Anyway, the reason the grip box comes with one is the grip box is an ADJUSTABLE suspension. Meaning, you can install it, go to the track and dial it all in. Depending on a whole bunch of different conditions, you may need to adjust the effective thickness of your sway bar to make it react the same way in different places. Temperature, tires, altitude, weight of the car can all make a marked difference in your handling.


On a side note, I just spent about a week prowling the corner carvers forums. I now feel utterly stupid about suspension. A couple of the guys that worked on the team that developed the steeda 5 link set up post over there.

After reading their info, I think the 5 link is an awesome set up, still not a huge fan of it, but its deffinitely a viable option compared to the TA 3-link. Has its own set of issues of course, but should be just as competitive. Sounds like the only true solution to our solid rear axle, which according to the experts has been an uncompetitive set up for 40 years. Is to set up an almost entirely custom 3 link with a torque arm that requires murdering the rear half of your mustang. Crazy stuff.

[Jazzer The Cat]

CC has a way of making one feel like a dummy, huh?

I know I sent you a PM on the subject and can understand how you may have thought Bruce was against it. I remember saying that I was sure he would not approve, so figure that is where you got it from. Even though he never told me such, I have zero doubt he would feel exactly the way you mentioned on post #300.

The bar I installed handled my issue perfectly, so I am a happy kitty

Jazzer

PS. 331 responses to your thread... pretty good! Now if you can only catch MM Cobra Club thread

[Thumbie]

Originally Posted by EscortSportage i already have front and rear strut/shock tower braces, and through the floor subframe connectors,Eibach sportsline springs,tokico illumina adjustable shocks, MM camber caster plates, now i need to finish up the front and rear suspension ie: tubular k member tubular a arms coil over conversion all 4 and the stuff i mentioned above

and a torque arm and watts link

[dcook_14]

Originally Posted by Thumbie and a torque arm and watts link

He already said that, it's part of the "and the stuff I mentioned above" part of that post. He said torque arm and panhard bar.

[Thumbie]

ah, thanks for pointing that out. although I believe it was discussed that the watts link is slightly superior to the PHB, right? don't remember exactly why but something like the angle of rotation on a PHB is on the side. I don't know but still handling-wise there is hardly a difference, but if he wanted TOP suspension then Watts link is what he wants.

correct me if im wrong, this is a learning thread not a "your a dumbass STFU thread"

[ModMustang97GT]

This is definitely a Learning thread. But if someone comes in and does try to pass off hearsay as truth I will be forced to call them out.

In general the Watts link is generally considered better, but there are some issues with it. Ultimately its heavier and unlike the panhard bar does have a max range of movement. Though the range is quite large and the location is absolute as apposed to the PHB which depending on the distance from resting height, will move slightly through the arc of the rod.

Also, most watts links require you do partially mame your trunk to get them in correctly.

And, with the PHB, you are also able to design a fewer link suspension set up that will be MUCH lighter than a WAtts link set up and still have the same ultimate performance. Granted that is WAYYYY beyond the bounds of 99.9999% of people reading this threads goal, its worth mentioning.


PS. I feel like luke in return of the Jedi right now. I have returned with a new level of suspension understanding. (CC awakened part of my brain I haven't used since I got kicked out of engineering school).

[EscortSportage]

so this is my plan MM lower control arms no perchs (coilovers) MM PHB MM torque arm setup for rear with stock sway bar and i have torque box reinforcements already,

for front im thinking MM k member MM a arms, coilovers MM strut tower brace, stock sway bar

eventually a 10 point cage

i also need/want MM bumpsteer kit, 5 lug conversion, rear disc brakes, bigger n better brakes

[Thumbie]

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT This is definitely a Learning thread. But if someone comes in and does try to pass off hearsay as truth I will be forced to call them out. In general the Watts link is generally considered better, but there are some issues with it. Ultimately its heavier and unlike the panhard bar does have a max range of movement. Though the range is quite large and the location is absolute as apposed to the PHB which depending on the distance from resting height, will move slightly through the arc of the rod. Also, most watts links require you do partially mame your trunk to get them in correctly. And, with the PHB, you are also able to design a fewer link suspension set up that will be MUCH lighter than a WAtts link set up and still have the same ultimate performance. Granted that is WAYYYY beyond the bounds of 99.9999% of people reading this threads goal, its worth mentioning. PS. I feel like luke in return of the Jedi right now. I have returned with a new level of suspension understanding. (CC awakened part of my brain I haven't used since I got kicked out of engineering school).

Good to know, thanks for clearing that up.
My goal will never be intense enough to require the watts link, then.

I think what i want is basically the MM grip box, lol...someday...

[EscortSportage]

i want to do the PHB over the watts link cuz its lighter, i think stronger due to less moving parts...

[ReverendDexter]

Originally Posted by EscortSportage i want to do the PHB over the watts link cuz its lighter, i think stronger due to less moving parts...

Lighter, certainly. Stronger? I don't believe so.

All the stress on a panhard bar is going against one long bar and two joints. With a watts link, you have shorter bars (shorter is stronger, all else being equal), and 5 joints to spread that same stress across. More points of failure, sure, but I don't think it's inherently weaker because of it.