The Official Suspension Guide

HBK_2007 · January 8th, 2009, 04:44 AM

so whats the difference between a watts link and a panhard bar?

DickH · January 8th, 2009, 05:52 AM

Watts link hold the axle dead center through a couple arms linked together. A panhard bar controls the side to side movement of the axle by using one long arm that connects the axle to the car so it is forced along an arc as the axle moves up/down. The side to side movement from the arc motion makes the car favor one side over the other. The watts link is better, but the panhard bar is just simpler, cheaper, lighter, and im sure at the end of the day there is only a minor difference between the two if both are setup right.

Watts link

Panhard bar

Jazzer The Cat · January 8th, 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter

You mean UCAs, right Jazzer?

I've never seen anyone, ever, complain about poly bushings in the LCAs, whereas I've seen countless warnings against it in the UCAs.

I mean, yes, if ride qualtiy is of the utmost importance, rubber bushings are where it's at, but certainly polys in the UCAs is *much* worse than polys in the LCAs.

I was referring to the LCA's, as I don't know how serious HBK is about a softer ride. To me, this was a no-brainer and purchased spherical/poly LCA's for my ride on a nearly solid arm. I sometimes have to pull myself back and ask if the OP, or in this case, HBK, is as serious as we are on the subject. Seems to me it might be pretty easy to steer a suspension-mod newbie into something he/she may regret when there are several of us all saying pretty much the same thing.

I would guess that most of us learned the hard/expensive way on suspension mods. The knowledge I gained was good, but the result, at times, was NOT an improvement in my situation. I never really go into detail about "upgrades" (and I use that term loosely, as several mods were NOT upgrades) When someone said "Get these double-action, liquid-mercury, titanium, quad-reflex steel-rod shocks", I was like "OK". I realize that we have the best interest in helping others to improve his/her corner-carving endevours and the internet has some WONDERFUL resources. This site being one of many that has good info, but can easily "push" someone into a direction that may not desired. I realize that we are trying to save some of these "bad" steps for the OP/HBK, but just want these people to realize ALL that will result from a particular modification.

Back to your question, Rev. Something I don't know is how much/bad the binding would be with tubular LCA's with poly/poly bushings. I am certain it would bind up, and think it would not be as detremental as same type of UCA's. I would figure that the bushings being so far outward on axle, the poly's would be more apt to give than the UCA's. Not only b/c of the length of the arm itself, but compared to the poor angle of the UCA's.

My hope is that if ANYONE reads all these posts, he/she can make an informed decision and have no regrets

JTC

HBK_2007 · January 8th, 2009, 01:14 PM

well like ive stated, i currently live on a rough ass road so right now if i can modd the suspension that would help with that AND improve handling, im all for it. I wont be going as far as you guys till i move to boulder (with paved streets)

simon94 · January 8th, 2009, 02:09 PM

no its not a heavy foot, the reason is 15 by 10 weld pro stars on used (out of round) and not balanced goodyear eagle gt2's on 15 by 3.5 weld on skinnies (new and balanced) front. before when i had the stalkers i had no problems. people where all saying that i should of gone with the 4.5 or 5 in front but i like the look of these better and want to work around it. i bought the eagle gt 2's cheap on ebay, new would cost 3 times as much , u get what u pay for and u buy what u can afford.

ModMustang97GT · January 8th, 2009, 05:48 PM

Ok, if you want to keep a smooth ride you do not want to get the poly bushings. They are much stiffer. And as far as getting them on your LCA's, I would personally say its worth it. They will be stiffer and rougher, but I don't know how long you spend on that gravel road of yours. I can tell you that with my Race springs and Bilstein HD's, its actually smoother on the really tiny quick bumps, but murder on the big ones. The reason is my wheel rate is much better.

OK important definition here. Your WHEEL RATE
The force it takes for your tire to move up and down. This means how quickly your tire will move into the bumps on the road. You calculate it by the spring rate multiplied by the leverage. In the case of your stock front suspension. Your spring is roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of the way from the pivot point to the wheel. This means you have a 1/3 to 1/4 mechanical advantage on your wheel. So, with my 800 lbs/in springs, I have a wheel rate closer to 200-250 lbs/in. And my force on the bottom of my car is closer to 2/3 - 3/4 advantage. Meaning I feel 3/4 of the bump, and have 1/4 the wheel reaction time it could.

This is the main reason coil overs are so much lower in spring rate. A 300 lbs spring will get 90% of its force on the tire. And the same amount on the car. meaning you will feel roughly half the force on the car and gain 50% more force on the wheel. This leads to better handling and more comfortable ride. Its a pretty simple no brainer.

The problem of course is the cost. You look at the cost of coil overs and think, damn I can't swing that. But let me break it down. Your CC plates are necessary any way, they add strength and adjustability that you need. You won't be buying any sway bars, because they will hurt your handling with the coil overs. You will want to buy new shocks/struts anyways, to match with your new fancy springs. So if you lay it all out.

Spring Setup

$200 - CC plates
$270 - Sway Bars
$550 - Shocks/Struts
$240 - Springs

$1260 - TOTAL

Coil Over Setup
$200 - CC plates
No Sway Bars
$550 Shocks/Struts
$360 Coil Overs - Front
$450 Coil Overs - Rear
$1600 - TOTAL (their package)

Thats $400 more, and you will never upgrade it again. Plus you will have better handling, smoother ride and adjustable ride height.

ModMustang97GT · January 8th, 2009, 05:53 PM

I know these are expensive options. And the coil overs are kind of an all at once expense. So its hard to justify. If you do the springs and shocks route. You will still have a corner carving monster, but will not be as comfortable and it won't be adjustable. I recommend the coil overs, But there is nothing wrong with getting a street set up that will dominate most non super cars on the road. Get a 4 point harness. Gets some fatty meats. Put on the chassis stiffening package. Get a PHB, new sway bar, springs and shocks. And your car will hang corners with more speed than YOU will be ready for. If you want to step it up. There are lots of mods you can add before you have to tackle the Coil-Over question. Problem is, turning fast is just as addictive as accelerating fast. Drift an On-Ramp at 80 and you'll know what I mean. Tell me what you want, I'll tell you what you need.

ModMustang97GT · January 8th, 2009, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by DickH

Watts link hold the axle dead center through a couple arms linked together. A panhard bar controls the side to side movement of the axle by using one long arm that connects the axle to the car so it is forced along an arc as the axle moves up/down. The side to side movement from the arc motion makes the car favor one side over the other. The watts link is better, but the panhard bar is just simpler, cheaper, lighter, and im sure at the end of the day there is only a minor difference between the two if both are setup right.

Watts link

Panhard bar

What kind of car's are those? Thats not a mustang suspension, atleast not 96-04.

Also, the true dissadvantage to the PHB is the arc of the rod. With a watts link you don't have to worry about that. However, in most cases, people don't worry about it, since a car that is trying to corner hard will only have about 2-4 inches of travel up and down, this means the side to side movement in the arc will be minimal. Another dissadvantage to the PHB is you are changing the geometry of the axle's articulation. Meaning, if your right tire is on a curb and the left is on the street, you may have rubbing issues with wide tires. The pivot point of the PHB changes how the axle moves, so in the extreme motions of every day driving, you might run into issues. My right wheel rubs every time I pull into the driveway at my office because the ramp is steep, and if I drive in at an angle the wheel rubs. The other direction, it doesn't happen. And if I drive in straight it doesn't happen. Just the one angle. However, I think the benefits are worth it. Its all a question of application.

HBK_2007 · January 8th, 2009, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT

Tell me what you want, I'll tell you what you need.

i want a bag of $100 bills...

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT

What kind of car's are those? Thats not a mustang suspension, atleast not 96-04.

Also, the true dissadvantage to the PHB is the arc of the rod. With a watts link you don't have to worry about that. However, in most cases, people don't worry about it, since a car that is trying to corner hard will only have about 2-4 inches of travel up and down, this means the side to side movement in the arc will be minimal. Another dissadvantage to the PHB is you are changing the geometry of the axle's articulation. Meaning, if your right tire is on a curb and the left is on the street, you may have rubbing issues with wide tires. The pivot point of the PHB changes how the axle moves, so in the extreme motions of every day driving, you might run into issues. My right wheel rubs every time I pull into the driveway at my office because the ramp is steep, and if I drive in at an angle the wheel rubs. The other direction, it doesn't happen. And if I drive in straight it doesn't happen. Just the one angle. However, I think the benefits are worth it. Its all a question of application.

i spend a total of 10 mins on my road (5 each way) every day. do u think a watts link is better than a phb?

DickH · January 8th, 2009, 10:38 PM

the first one is a mustang, second I don't know. A watts link isn't cheap different tires/springs/whatever would easily be more cost effective for ride quality. I'm only getting a watts link/tq arm because I can make everything for half the cost or less.

Jazzer The Cat · January 8th, 2009, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by HBK_2007

i want a bag of $100 bills..."

Jazzer

Jazzer The Cat · January 8th, 2009, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by ModMustang97GT

Ok, if you want to keep a smooth ride you do not want to get the poly bushings. They are much stiffer. And as far as getting them on your LCA's, I would personally say its worth it. They will be stiffer and rougher, but I don't know how long you spend on that gravel road of yours. I can tell you that with my Race springs and Bilstein HD's, its actually smoother on the really tiny quick bumps, but murder on the big ones. The reason is my wheel rate is much better.

OK important definition here. Your WHEEL RATE
The force it takes for your tire to move up and down. This means how quickly your tire will move into the bumps on the road. You calculate it by the spring rate multiplied by the leverage. In the case of your stock front suspension. Your spring is roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of the way from the pivot point to the wheel. This means you have a 1/3 to 1/4 mechanical advantage on your wheel. So, with my 800 lbs/in springs, I have a wheel rate closer to 200-250 lbs/in. And my force on the bottom of my car is closer to 2/3 - 3/4 advantage. Meaning I feel 3/4 of the bump, and have 1/4 the wheel reaction time it could.

This is the main reason coil overs are so much lower in spring rate. A 300 lbs spring will get 90% of its force on the tire. And the same amount on the car. meaning you will feel roughly half the force on the car and gain 50% more force on the wheel. This leads to better handling and more comfortable ride. Its a pretty simple no brainer.

The problem of course is the cost. You look at the cost of coil overs and think, damn I can't swing that. But let me break it down. Your CC plates are necessary any way, they add strength and adjustability that you need. You won't be buying any sway bars, because they will hurt your handling with the coil overs. You will want to buy new shocks/struts anyways, to match with your new fancy springs. So if you lay it all out.

Spring Setup

$200 - CC plates
$270 - Sway Bars
$550 - Shocks/Struts
$240 - Springs

$1260 - TOTAL

Coil Over Setup
$200 - CC plates
No Sway Bars
$550 Shocks/Struts
$360 Coil Overs - Front
$450 Coil Overs - Rear
$1600 - TOTAL (their package)

Thats $400 more, and you will never upgrade it again. Plus you will have better handling, smoother ride and adjustable ride height.

Dude! This is a SPECTACULAR write-up

I wanted to give you some major props on the scales, but I guess I gave you some earlier and won't let me do it now

HBK_2007 · January 8th, 2009, 11:26 PM

is this a sticky?

ModMustang97GT · January 9th, 2009, 06:05 PM

Yes this is a sticky. And my response to the differences of a PHB and Watts link is in my reply to the big post with pictures above. The bottom line is the Watts link does a better job, but is more expensive, harder to install, and over kill in most no extreme applications. Of course, one thing I am not clear on, some people have made me wonder if my normal exhaust would fit with the watt's link. So I wouldn't have to have dumps. If that was the case, It would be worth the price difference. My ears are already messed up from driving my car with LT's Catted H and Dumps. Thing sets are car alarms at 2k rpm.

DickH · January 10th, 2009, 04:34 AM

Well... I will have all of my exhaust, and a watts link.

HBK_2007 · January 10th, 2009, 03:21 PM

where did u get ur suspension mods?

DickH · January 10th, 2009, 05:12 PM

Work? I am making my stuff at work, off the clock.

HAZE · January 10th, 2009, 05:35 PM

good stuff

HBK_2007 · January 10th, 2009, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by DickH

Work? I am making my stuff at work, off the clock.

u made them? nice. pics?

DickH · January 11th, 2009, 05:03 AM

Well, I am not done, I still have a bit of work ahead of me. Discussion and pictures are in the thread I link to in my sig.

January 8th, 2009, 04:44 AM	#81
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 1996 Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,158	so whats the difference between a watts link and a panhard bar? __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, some type of exhaust, "leveling kit"

January 8th, 2009, 05:52 AM	#82
DickH Hardcore Enthusiast 2003 gt not so soon@probably not enough Join Date: May 2007 Location: Omaha Posts: 1,742	Watts link hold the axle dead center through a couple arms linked together. A panhard bar controls the side to side movement of the axle by using one long arm that connects the axle to the car so it is forced along an arc as the axle moves up/down. The side to side movement from the arc motion makes the car favor one side over the other. The watts link is better, but the panhard bar is just simpler, cheaper, lighter, and im sure at the end of the day there is only a minor difference between the two if both are setup right. Watts link Panhard bar __________________ want boost? im selling my stuff, from ported plenum/tb to injectors, head unit, maf, power pipe etc... pm me Last edited by DickH : January 8th, 2009 at 08:03 AM.

January 8th, 2009, 01:14 PM	#84
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 1996 Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,158	well like ive stated, i currently live on a rough ass road so right now if i can modd the suspension that would help with that AND improve handling, im all for it. I wont be going as far as you guys till i move to boulder (with paved streets) __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, some type of exhaust, "leveling kit"

January 8th, 2009, 05:48 PM	#86
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,315	Ok, if you want to keep a smooth ride you do not want to get the poly bushings. They are much stiffer. And as far as getting them on your LCA's, I would personally say its worth it. They will be stiffer and rougher, but I don't know how long you spend on that gravel road of yours. I can tell you that with my Race springs and Bilstein HD's, its actually smoother on the really tiny quick bumps, but murder on the big ones. The reason is my wheel rate is much better. OK important definition here. Your WHEEL RATE The force it takes for your tire to move up and down. This means how quickly your tire will move into the bumps on the road. You calculate it by the spring rate multiplied by the leverage. In the case of your stock front suspension. Your spring is roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of the way from the pivot point to the wheel. This means you have a 1/3 to 1/4 mechanical advantage on your wheel. So, with my 800 lbs/in springs, I have a wheel rate closer to 200-250 lbs/in. And my force on the bottom of my car is closer to 2/3 - 3/4 advantage. Meaning I feel 3/4 of the bump, and have 1/4 the wheel reaction time it could. This is the main reason coil overs are so much lower in spring rate. A 300 lbs spring will get 90% of its force on the tire. And the same amount on the car. meaning you will feel roughly half the force on the car and gain 50% more force on the wheel. This leads to better handling and more comfortable ride. Its a pretty simple no brainer. The problem of course is the cost. You look at the cost of coil overs and think, damn I can't swing that. But let me break it down. Your CC plates are necessary any way, they add strength and adjustability that you need. You won't be buying any sway bars, because they will hurt your handling with the coil overs. You will want to buy new shocks/struts anyways, to match with your new fancy springs. So if you lay it all out. Spring Setup $200 - CC plates $270 - Sway Bars $550 - Shocks/Struts $240 - Springs $1260 - TOTAL Coil Over Setup $200 - CC plates No Sway Bars $550 Shocks/Struts $360 Coil Overs - Front $450 Coil Overs - Rear $1600 - TOTAL (their package) Thats $400 more, and you will never upgrade it again. Plus you will have better handling, smoother ride and adjustable ride height. __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark PI Swap Spun Main Bearing... Author of The Official Suspension Guide

January 8th, 2009, 05:53 PM	#87
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,315	I know these are expensive options. And the coil overs are kind of an all at once expense. So its hard to justify. If you do the springs and shocks route. You will still have a corner carving monster, but will not be as comfortable and it won't be adjustable. I recommend the coil overs, But there is nothing wrong with getting a street set up that will dominate most non super cars on the road. Get a 4 point harness. Gets some fatty meats. Put on the chassis stiffening package. Get a PHB, new sway bar, springs and shocks. And your car will hang corners with more speed than YOU will be ready for. If you want to step it up. There are lots of mods you can add before you have to tackle the Coil-Over question. Problem is, turning fast is just as addictive as accelerating fast. Drift an On-Ramp at 80 and you'll know what I mean. Tell me what you want, I'll tell you what you need. __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark PI Swap Spun Main Bearing... Author of The Official Suspension Guide

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January 8th, 2009, 02:09 PM	#85
simon94 Regular Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 93	no its not a heavy foot, the reason is 15 by 10 weld pro stars on used (out of round) and not balanced goodyear eagle gt2's on 15 by 3.5 weld on skinnies (new and balanced) front. before when i had the stalkers i had no problems. people where all saying that i should of gone with the 4.5 or 5 in front but i like the look of these better and want to work around it. i bought the eagle gt 2's cheap on ebay, new would cost 3 times as much , u get what u pay for and u buy what u can afford.

January 8th, 2009, 10:38 PM	#90
DickH Hardcore Enthusiast 2003 gt not so soon@probably not enough Join Date: May 2007 Location: Omaha Posts: 1,742	the first one is a mustang, second I don't know. A watts link isn't cheap different tires/springs/whatever would easily be more cost effective for ride quality. I'm only getting a watts link/tq arm because I can make everything for half the cost or less. __________________ want boost? im selling my stuff, from ported plenum/tb to injectors, head unit, maf, power pipe etc... pm me

January 8th, 2009, 11:26 PM	#93
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 1996 Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,158	is this a sticky? __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, some type of exhaust, "leveling kit"

January 9th, 2009, 06:05 PM	#94
ModMustang97GT Hardcore Enthusiast 1997 Mustang GT Faster than an s4 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,315	Yes this is a sticky. And my response to the differences of a PHB and Watts link is in my reply to the big post with pictures above. The bottom line is the Watts link does a better job, but is more expensive, harder to install, and over kill in most no extreme applications. Of course, one thing I am not clear on, some people have made me wonder if my normal exhaust would fit with the watt's link. So I wouldn't have to have dumps. If that was the case, It would be worth the price difference. My ears are already messed up from driving my car with LT's Catted H and Dumps. Thing sets are car alarms at 2k rpm. __________________ Aztec Gold 97GT. MM CC Plates, Panhard Bar, SFC's & Tower Brace Eibach Sway Bars H&R Race Springs/Bilstein Shocks MAC CAI, LT's, Catted H and Pro-Dumps KB Boost-a-Spark PI Swap Spun Main Bearing... Author of The Official Suspension Guide

January 10th, 2009, 04:34 AM	#95
DickH Hardcore Enthusiast 2003 gt not so soon@probably not enough Join Date: May 2007 Location: Omaha Posts: 1,742	Well... I will have all of my exhaust, and a watts link. __________________ want boost? im selling my stuff, from ported plenum/tb to injectors, head unit, maf, power pipe etc... pm me

January 10th, 2009, 03:21 PM	#96
HBK_2007 Genibus Nitito Canus 1996 Mustang GT next year Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,158	where did u get ur suspension mods? __________________ Red 1996 GT: JLT RAI, Steeda Underdrive pullies, Stewart Waterpump; nothing to brag about Black 2009 45th aniverary edition GT 5 speed: K&N CAI, BBK Twin 62mm Throttle Body, BBK Underdrive Pullies, some type of exhaust, "leveling kit"

January 10th, 2009, 05:12 PM	#97
DickH Hardcore Enthusiast 2003 gt not so soon@probably not enough Join Date: May 2007 Location: Omaha Posts: 1,742	Work? I am making my stuff at work, off the clock. __________________ want boost? im selling my stuff, from ported plenum/tb to injectors, head unit, maf, power pipe etc... pm me

January 10th, 2009, 05:35 PM	#98
HAZE Newbie Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5	good stuff

January 11th, 2009, 05:03 AM	#100
DickH Hardcore Enthusiast 2003 gt not so soon@probably not enough Join Date: May 2007 Location: Omaha Posts: 1,742	Well, I am not done, I still have a bit of work ahead of me. Discussion and pictures are in the thread I link to in my sig. __________________ want boost? im selling my stuff, from ported plenum/tb to injectors, head unit, maf, power pipe etc... pm me

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