[simon94]

anyone know something about derlin bushings? global west say they have the best lca's with derlin but they call it del-a-lum bushings on axle and spherical aircraft bearings on frame side. they promise no bind

[Jazzer The Cat]

I have heard of Global West, but don't know much about them. They are correct in that the spherical end will eliminate binding of the LCA. You still have binding on UCA, so you really need to do those as well.

As for derlin bushings, I figure it is similar to poly, so should be fine. Hopefully someone else familiar with derlin will chim in here.

HTH

Jazzer

[simon94]

i copied this from allfordmustangs forum, anyone agree with this setup?

Going STIFF doesnt mean better all the time.

There are several combos that require different spring rates.

The "C" springs require better struts, will advice on some adjustable tokicos.

The rear can also use better shocks, but stockers work more less ok with the "C" low spring rate.
The Cs were created thinking on using a specific combo of parts, most important the FRPP Lower control arm which is actually a Global West LCA with delrin and spherical bushings. You can substitute that with a Max Motorsport LCA which is similar in design.

The rear lower control arms are the #1 thing you need to change.
The FRPP or Max motorsports LCAs will help locate the axle lateraly.
They work great with soft rear springs, no quad shocks and even without the rear swaybar (my combo, and i actually autox and RR my GT)

Also keep your stock rear UPPER arms, changing to urethane uppers will bind the mount points and create undesirable oversteer. Those arms are made for straight line not cornering.Handling is a complex subject, and will take me a while to explain.

First of all you need to know the basics of the mustang suspension and what options there are.

Theres also the money issue, if you have a load of cash, drop a strong IRS and coilover setup and you are almost done.
On the middle of the scale you can use a panhard/torque arm setup, or a watts link or steeda 5 link. Each has its pros and cons.

On the bottom of the list, for those on a budget there are SIMPLE setups that handle decently.
Throw away any thoughts of getting urethane upper and lower control arms, those are for 1/4 mile. You need LCAs with spherical bushings on ONE SIDE.

Learn the basics about understeer and oversteer, what causes both? how to correct them?

In simple terms a soft front and stiff rear will cause OVERSTEER and thats when your rear tires gets loose. If you reverse that you get UNDERSTEER, the car just wants to go straight through the corners.

The Mustang usually has more oversteer not only because of the suspension, also because you have the power at the rear wheels.

The SIMPLE way to correct this is to SOFTEN the rear suspension using softer springs or removing the swaybar. But you have another problem, the axle moves also sideways, and for that you need some good racing control arms such as FRPP, Global West or Max Motorsports.

Shocks and struts play a very important role, they control the bouncing action of the springs. Bilsteins, Konis, Tokicos are about the best you can get, but should be properly matched and tuned (in case of adjustables) to your driving habits and the type of road.

Try to use parts from the same vendor, dont mix stuff if possible (with some exceptions).
The most respectable vendors in the racing arena are: Maximum Motorsports, Steeda and Global West (Also makes some of the FRPP stuff).

The front suspension is not that tricky to tune, get some CC plates, urethane rack bushings, the Steeda XBalljoint, Steeda offset A arm bushings (exception to the above rule). This setup works like a charm.

Now about springs...
Use LINEAR RATE springs if possible, i like the FRPP "C" springs a lot, but theres also Eibach and H&R.
Fronts of around 600lbs are ok for ocassional RR or autoX.
On the rear, its another ballgame entirely. Panhards and IRS setups require STIFF springs, IRS springs use almost the same rate as the fronts. Panhards use springs from 300 to 500 lbs depending on the setup.

If you use a simple LCA use SOFT springs, anything from 160 to 250 with or without a rear swaybar.

[simon94]

what about these Frpp lcas with fluted poly bushings, what are fluted?

Package Dimensions: 19.00H x 5.00W x 7.25D
Weight: 19.00#
M-5649-H Fits 1979-98

This lower control arm relocates control arm mounting points to alter rear suspension geometry

Traction under acceleration and braking is dramatically improved

Dual control arm mounting points allow anti-squat and anti-dive adjustment for differing traction conditions

Both ends of control arms are equipped with fluted polyurethane bushing

[Jazzer The Cat]

I don't have time to read your entire first post (top of page) but DON'T like the LCA's above. The issue I have with them is the lack of spherical ends that would allow the axle to articulate better. Read this paragraph from the upper copy/paste:

On the bottom of the list, for those on a budget there are SIMPLE setups that handle decently.
Throw away any thoughts of getting urethane upper and lower control arms, those are for 1/4 mile. You need LCAs with spherical bushings on ONE SIDE.

The pictured LCA's do not fit this description and would not recommend them.

Read this thread from the beginning and will give you LOTS of wonderful info.

HTH

Jazzer

[simon94]

or what about these?


J&M Products then solved the shortcomings of the factory rubber and other aftermarket polyurethane and stiffer rubber bushings. J&M Products accomplished this with their Patent Pending 3 piece Poly-Ball bushing combination. By spending countless hours looking and dissecting the geometry and the need of the rear suspension they have come out with bind-free bushings set up. J&M Products incorporates a very hard inner polyurethane ball which is surrounded by soft socket outer cups. This combination allows the bushing to articulate like a spherical bearing during cornering but the hard inner ball does not allow the bushing to deflect during acceleration giving you great traction during acceleration like solid bushings but remains completely bind free during cornering for great predictable traction in the corners.

[ModMustang97GT]

Simon, the bushings they are describing are basically Spherical bushings. And the post from the other web site is correct about poly bushings in your UCA's. Because of the job that the LCA's do, the Poly or even Del-rin will work on one end, as long as the other has spherical bushings. However, your not going to fix all your problems with those. The UCA's have bind built into them. The way they are designed to work WILL BIND. And by installing Stiffer Bushings you are limiting the movement but increasing the amount of bind and the severity of the release when they do break the tires free. You also risk dmg to your UCA mounts when you install stiffer bushings. The mounts were designed to have that freedom of the rubber bushings, they are not strong enough to hold the entire force of the side to side movement.

[ModMustang97GT]

Since we are getting Lots of questions about the LCA's and UCA's I will go into a little more detail on what you want.

1st and Fore most, you get what you pay for, be warry of unknown companies with "revolutionary" or "All New" design. There are only a few designs out there, and they are good enough that the big companies have not changed them any more. Take that as a sign.

LCA's - For Handling
You require a spherical bushing on one end, and your choice of normal bushing on the other. Dual spherical is too lose. However, rubber, poly and Delrin/Aluminum bushings are acceptable. However, as the handling increases the ride quality decreases respectively.

LCA's - For Drag
For Drag racing you Do not REQUIRE the Spherical on one end, however, it is HIGHLY recommended. They will not hurt you, so its better to just get them anyway. The main difference in what you are looking for is the UCA's.

UCA's - Drag
For Drag, you can get the poly bushing UCA's. They are rough on your Mounts and will stiffen up your ride and help you hook very well. Its still not as good as a torque arm set up, but its about half the price and 1/10 the work to install. Keep in mind, it will seem to handle better, hold the corner better. But when it binds, and it will with less angle with the poly, it will be a much harsher release. But, if you play nice in the corners and only really let loose in a straight line, you won't have any issues.

UCA's - Handling
For hard cornering, you don't want UCA's at all. But if you can't afford the PHB and Torque arm, or just the PHB. You will still want to stay with your rubber bushings. I know it sucks, but it is the safest way to go. New ones will be better than the stock ones, but poly bushings will tear up your mounts and lead to a even more severe unpredictability. Image if you will, the same handling unpredictability you have stock, but with a much more violent and abrupt release.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you EVER get delrin bushings in your UCA's. Some companies sell it, but they are retarded. They WILL crack and break your UCA mounts and introduce all kinds of crazy bind to your ride.

Hope this helps in your selection. I Highly recommend well known companies. Maximum Motorsports, Griggs, Steeda (some models not so good) and a couple others that have slipped my mind atm.

[simon94]

i guess one just cant buy the spherical bushings to put in the stock lca's?

another thing to clear up lca sperical bushings should go on the axel end, does everyone agree?

also when u buy lca's do u have to press fit bushings yourself or do they come already in place?

has anyone welded subframes, instead of drive on hoist could i use ramps? u know those wedge style ramps?

[Jazzer The Cat]

DO NOT USE DRIVE ON RAMPS TO WELD SUB-FRAMES

You want the car to be 100% supported on all four tires and LEVEL in all directions. If the frame has a small sag/twist to it, you will weld that sag/twist into your ride.........FOREVER!

I would not attempt to install a spherical bushing in a stock LCA or UCA, as it would not be worth it for many reasons. As for it's location (axle or torque-box) end....... I have seen both ways. My Griggs stuff has it at the body end and seen others at axle end. I don't see it matters much unless the LCA was really tight in the channel or something crazy like that and had limited room to twist. I suppose that the sway bar would have to twist in addition to the LCA if it were like mine, so something to consider. If you purchase an aftermarket UCA or LCA, the bushings will be in place. If not, it would just fit between the parts and not need special tools or anything.

HTH

Jazzer

[simon94]

DO NOT USE DRIVE ON RAMPS TO WELD SUB-FRAMES

You want the car to be 100% supported on all four tires and LEVEL in all directions. If the frame has a small sag/twist to it, you will weld that sag/twist into your ride.........FOREVER!

ok understood thanks
would weld prostar wheels and tire/presure matter or should i put stockers before welding subframes?

according to most sellers of lca's they have sherical bushings on the axel side.

If you use your car in open track or autocross competition, you'll probably want to leave the stock upper control arms alone and install only new lower control arms. The stock rubber bushings in the upper arms continue to allow the axle to articulate through its full range of motion in turns, while the new lower arms improve axle location. One popular lower arm design (illustrated below) uses segmented poly bushings on the chassis end and spherical bearings on the axle end. This combination has been found to improve rear axle location without any significant increase in suspension bind.


I go this from Late Model Mustang Suspension Basics website Late Model Mustang Suspension Basics

[ModMustang97GT]

You want the body to be flat. SO if you have much of a rake in your suspension, that would not be good. If you use ramps, simply make sure that you put the other end on jack stands and make sure the body is level. So long as everything is flat and you have space to work, it is fine.

For road racing upgrading your UCA's is still a good thing to do. I wouldn't buy them if you plan to install a torque arm later. And I wouldn't get anything more than rubber bushings. Just upgrading that will help out, not as much as your other options, but every little bit helps.

The end of the Lower Control arm that the Spherical Bearing goes on does not really matter, so long as you have one. The problem is when you get stiffer bushings without a spherical bushing and introduce more bind into your already problematic set up.

[simon94]

so by body, u mean the under body chasis frame should be flat-level and the other end should be ok on jack stands on the axle?-don't the rear wheels need to be suported to have the supension under load?

it was hit in front left drivers side and body shop fixed it up and they said they did have to straighten the frame, but i geuss i should have that double checked?

[zepppaosla]

great

[Jazzer The Cat]

Originally Posted by simon94 so by body, u mean the under body chasis frame should be flat-level and the other end should be ok on jack stands on the axle?-don't the rear wheels need to be suported to have the supension under load? it was hit in front left drivers side and body shop fixed it up and they said they did have to straighten the frame, but i geuss i should have that double checked?

Ideally, you want the tires/wheels to be in full support of your car when the sub-frames are welded together. If you were to get creative, one could support by rear axle and maybe "A" arms of front end. It is not that you need the suspension under load, but rather the body in the same position it would be if parked on an even/level road. When your car was assembled, it was designed to have all the body panels and doors line up and operate correctly. The sub-frame is really two frames connected by the "body" in the middle. The body will twist and flex under different loads. Heavy braking, cornering, rolling end over end in a horrible firey ball..... When the sub-frames are welded in place, one "freezes" the movement of the front and rear halves together. If the body had a twist or sag, the doors may not line-up well or open/close properly, it would always have this issue. Do yourself a favor and have a reputable performance shoppe familiar with sub-frame support do this work for you.

As for frame repairs that were done, how badly was it damaged? Does the car drive funny, like dog-walk or anything? Doors/trunk/hood open and close correctly and seams line up evenly? The sub-frame connectors will just hold the car as it is when they are installed. You will get minimal movement beyond that point, so car will continue to drive and doors will continue to fit just as they do now.

HTH

Jazzer

[simon94]

all that seems to be fine, so flat level drive way, drive on ramps for front and or big wood blocks for front a arms and jack stands on rear axle measure ground clearance from rocker panels make sure its equal lenghs. remove seats and roll back carpet remove mid exhaust, grind where subframes need to be welded in, hold subframes in place with stands, weld, and spray paint.

[simon94]

i found and old modular forum thread relating to weld pro star wheels and supension setup
this guys supension set up on his 2001 gt, would this setup work for my 97 gt, still just for looks and street driving and overall good handling cornering?i understand that lakewood shocks are for dragracing though??

front:lakewood 90/10 struts, 4 cyl fox body springs (1/2 coil cut) no swaybar. Rear:bullitt shocks (tokico), frpp "C" springs (dead coil cut)-waht does dead coil cut mean?

this setup 97 gt, could someone translate what this means--175# front coilovers, upr tube a-arms, qa1 tube k-member, sportline rears, southside machine lowers with spherical rod end welded in, steeda aluminum uppers, airbags.

this is what my stang looks like

[Jazzer The Cat]

Originally Posted by simon94 all that seems to be fine, so flat level drive way, drive on ramps for front and or big wood blocks for front a arms and jack stands on rear axle measure ground clearance from rocker panels make sure its equal lenghs. remove seats and roll back carpet remove mid exhaust, grind where subframes need to be welded in, hold subframes in place with stands, weld, and spray paint.

Sounds good

I would recommend you "tack" the sub-frame connectors so you can then confirm doors open close properly and such. This is probably overkill, but would keep you on your toes during install so it goes well.

Jazzer

[ModMustang97GT]

[quote=simon94;1751420]i found and old modular forum thread relating to weld pro star wheels and supension setup
this guys supension set up on his 2001 gt, would this setup work for my 97 gt, still just for looks and street driving and overall good handling cornering?i understand that lakewood shocks are for dragracing though??

front:lakewood 90/10 struts, 4 cyl fox body springs (1/2 coil cut) no swaybar. Rear:bullitt shocks (tokico), frpp "C" springs (dead coil cut)-waht does dead coil cut mean?

On your springs, there are certain coils that are compressed at all times and simply give your car a ride height adjustment. Coils that don't spring at all. They will be the ones all touching eachother on the bottom of your springs.


this setup 97 gt, could someone translate what this means--175# front coilovers, upr tube a-arms, qa1 tube k-member, sportline rears, southside machine lowers with spherical rod end welded in, steeda aluminum uppers, airbags.


This set up is as follow. 175 lb/inch coil springs for the front coil overs. UPR is a company that makes tubular K-member and A arms Qa1 is the model. the springs in the rear are steeda sportlines. Southside machine lower control arms with spherical rod ends welded to them. Steeda Aluminum upper control arms. Airbags are hydraulic suspension mods. Same concept as low riders use to slam the car to the ground and lift it back up. Gives a drag car adjustable ride height like coil overs. But more easily adjusted.

[simon94]

u can check out specs here
Suspension Specs

i'm thinking of getting these in future

Ford Racing C Springs (M5300C)
fronts 650 (linear)
rear 200-300 (progressive, solid axle)