[DickH]

Ill get it figured out, I have all winter to do this. Right now I want to focus on the watts link anyway, it is much more interesting. The torque arm seems to be a "while you are at it" type of thing.

[F8L GT]

Like I mentioned earlier, on the lateral bars of the watts link, one end is going to have to be RH thread and the other should be LH thread.

[DickH]

Why? If it is to prevent the bar from turning and changing length, I had already planned on running a bolt tight against the bar to lock the rod end at the chosen length.

[F8L GT]

Its for adjustment purposes, trust me, you'll thank me later lol

[DickH]

Well, I already ordered four of the same. I get what you are saying and understand why, I am sure I will be fine. Adjusting might not be as easy, but I don't plan on adjusting this very often. I only have one tap for this anyway, kind of have to stick with matching threading.

[Jazzer The Cat]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter Maximum Motorsports says you're wrong. They're the ones that measured the lateral axle movement with the stock 4-link, and they're experiments showed it moves 2" side to side (when it shouldn't move at all). I've personally felt the rear end shifting underneath the car, and it is NOT pleasant or confidence-building in the least. The UCAs in the stock setup do 2 jobs. They do lateral axle location, and prevent axle wind-up. If you have a watts or panhard bar, you don't need the UCAs to control the lateral movement, and Griggs actually suggests removing one (you still need one in there to prevent axle wrap) to prevent suspension bind.

In my minds eye, I pictured the axle moving 2" in either direction, and don't see that as likely at all. Thinking about it now, that would be 4" of movement, so I stand corrected, thanks As for Griggs suggesting one UCA.... nope. I have none, just PHB & torque arm

DickH: For the torque arm I was thinking about making a plate that bolts onto the back of the diff and wraps around the bottom half, however I still don't know how to set it up on the front

Yes, I like this idea. if you look at all the torque arms I have seen, you will see a semi-circle that comes up the back-side and 5 diff bolts pass through it into pumpkin. This will hold the very back, and the two holes on the sides of front are used for the opposite side:


You can also see the front cross-member that fits into the little gully beneath the seats and wells to SFC on the Griggs set-up. I am sure there are other ways to do it, but this is the Griggs way. If you have SFC's, as I am sure you must, I recommend you fab a tube across and weld to them. Weld a tongue for the bolt and your set. Make sure you keep it high enough to give adequate clearance underneath and not hit the DS above. I suppose you could connect to the trans CM as SMS suggested, but think you may be in for clearance issues with road surface. I think it will be soo far forward, you will likely have contact with trans and such upon movement of axle going upward. You could use a Heim joint (spherical end) for the front of TA, but will introduce TONS of NVH, but have one hell of a solid arm. I recommend using some heavy rubber blocks (like in above pic) to hold front. Upon launch, the torque arm "wants" to travel upward, in braking... down.

The longer the torque-arm, the better as it will hold the axle at a "fixed" angle relative to the DS, so this will aid in pinion-angle and keep axle wind to pert near zero.

Kinda jumped around here as there were many posts since I was here yesterday. Hope this all makes sense.

JTC

[Jazzer The Cat]

Originally Posted by SMSPerformance No Jazz theres more than one bolt holding the torque arm on. If you look to the front of the rear end by the yolk its also picking up two mounting points up there also.

OK, I took a closer look and has MUCH better support than I had first thought.

Pheewww!

Jazzer The Relieved

[DickH]

Went looking at more pics of watts links, just hunting for ideas and I saw this.

It looks a lot easier to make, and I like how it mounts to the axle instead of the diff. I am working on redoing my plans, to see how it would work out. of course I would weld to my axle, and not clamp it, outside of that, does that design look any worse?

[Jazzer The Cat]

I was about to say "I am not in love with the clamps...", but you beat me to it

You will have an easier time building this one, but have no roll-center adjustment and just isn't as stout (and I LOVE Guiness!)

I like the original design MUCH better, but I am a twisty kinda guy

Jazzer

[03_StangGuy]

You get roll center adjustment by allowing the center bolt for the pivot to be moved up and down with different locations.

DickH is that picture of a kit for ours cars?

[DickH]

That is a picture of a watts link for 05+. I like the idea of attaching the arms to the axle and the pivot point to the car. It would make things a lot easier to make and install. I don't know how strong the watts link should be but I think that design should be about the same as the first. I saw a watts link that had the pivot point attached to the axles and diff instead of just the diff. If these actually have a lot of force applied I'm sure they would all be like that. I also like it because I can dodge the spare wheel well issue fairly easy with it. I should have a box from ups at home waiting for me and I should be able to get on a lift this weekend to measure under the car. I won't make any final decisions until I have a complete 3d model I like.

[Jazzer The Cat]

Post up the model as I would like to see your mad skillz in action

Jazzer

[DickH]

I will share the model soon, after I figure everything out. Don't get your hopes up though, I am using google sketchup and half assing it. I have something that is currently bugging me. I can't get a number I am happy with for the measurement from the axle to the frame. With the car lifted up, I measure 9.5 inches from the frame to the center of the axle, and measure 19.5 inches from the center of the wheel to the fender. When I lower the car, center of the wheel to the fender changes to 16 3/8, rounding to 16.5 leaving me a 3 inch change. So if my math isn't so bad, From my frame to the center of my axle should be 6.5 inches, can anyone else verify that for me? I am not sure if that number is correct, but that is what I measured.

[DickH]

Alright, with the measurements that I have, this is how far I have come along. It might not look like much, and that is because, it isn't much. I am not yet done, I am still mostly undecided about how I will attach it to the diff. As far as adjusting it, I am just making it to fit stock height, and the arms should allow ~5.5-6 inches of movement up and down so if I change something in my suspension and I sit an inch higher/lower, I will probably be ok.


If you want the actual sketchup file, I can supply that as well.

[Jazzer The Cat]

I like your thinking and your drawing as well. I am no suspension design expert by any means, but was going to suggest basically what I see in your drawing while I was reading the post directly above it.

It seems the arms would be best parallel to axle, and they are. I think the pivot mount should be perpendicular to axle at ride hight, and it is. If the car were later lowered, or God forbid , elevated, you would need enough adjustment in the arms to "re-square" the pivot. I don't know what the length of this pivot piece is, but this measurement would be determined by leveling the arms. The upper arm is pretty much pre-determined as it is going to be just below the frame on the RH side, correct? Whatever distance that is above the axle, is the distance the opposite arm should be below the axle. This, it seams, would allow you the most travel in your set-up and assure proper oportation. The WL will, at some point, limit the travel of axle when it is up on the frame support. I am sure the arms would work angled as long as the pivot were vertical at ride hight.

I found ***THIS*** website and think this is the same car from a different angle:


Good luck and keep us posted, this is good stuff!

EDIT: I forgot the TA cover question. I realize you want to make the WL, but do you want to attempt the cover as well? If not, I would go with a proven support as this would be MAJOR PITA if it broke on the road/track. I have seen lots of TA covers, but I know Griggs builds some of the heaviest stuff around for suspensions, so would purchase one of theirs if you need.

[DickH]

As far as I understand, a watts link will hold something center if the arms are equal length and whatnot. It will hold something center until it raises that pivot point beyond the mounting to the arms, at that point it will favor one side. My measurements should allow it to hold center for a distance more than what I will ever expect the axle to move. It seems the only real point to worry about is where I put the center point on the diff/axle. Instinct says middle, but half the pictures I see have them a little lower. I wish I knew how to figure where it would be best for me. As for the cover, I ordered a cover from UPR, im going to work with that. I took it to work with me today, cleaned it up some, stripped off the paint, ran a tap through everything (they don't do a good job) and sat and played with ideas. I have a fairly good idea of what I want to do with it now, im going to play in sketchup for a little bit and see how it works out.

[Jazzer The Cat]

I follow your thinking and agree with your theory, as I would see it pretty much the same way. The lower pivot-center point is a roll-center thing and don't fully understand it.

I know that last month I broke my front sway bar on an autoX event up in Santa Rosa. I had later spoke to John Griggs and told me that if I had a WL rather than a PHB, I could have changed the roll-center on WL and would not have noticed too much difference. Again, I don't really understand completely, but sure placing in center of axle would be best place to start.

I am really getting curious as you go along here as I am strongly considering going with a WL other than Griggs to replace my PHB. I LOVE the Griggs stuff, but requires me to lose big chunk of spare tire well for its use (Huge frame and VERY heavy duty construction). I am NOT willing to relingquish my spare tire nor carry it in the trunk ABOVE the well in which it was designed to be carried.

Please keep me informed of progress and could you send me a link to the TA cover you found? I don't see it on UPR site.

Thanks, Jazzer

[03_StangGuy]

All the new watts link designs seem to have the center point mounted to a brace and the arms mounted to the axle housing. I think that makes it easier to design it and keep a catback exhaust but Im not certain.

[Jazzer The Cat]

I have seen this design and was radially different from orginal. I think this is going to be the way to go for me, as less room is requried and spare well "appears" to be intact on pics I have seen.

I have some questions into some suspension guru's and will see what they have to say.

Thanks, and don't want to high-jack any longer.

Jazzer

[DickH]

Here is what I am thinking.