[Fastback91]

Originally Posted by Ke^in We have no clue how long that hole has been there Fastback.

True true.. just sayin thats what i heard.. time to do some research on that as well

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by Ke^in Having said that, don't confuse me with a right, or left winger. I am neighter. Both sides are so full of it. Neither side wants to see American prosper under the "other sides" watch. Political zealism is what is ruining this country. Some people would rather see the country fail, than it to prosper under someone, like say Bush. The right are now doing it to Obama. Not that he is helping anything.

I agree with this. I followed the links provided to me and I'm going to bow out of this one. It's not hard to imagine an economic situation where trade agreements dictate conditions in which the third world country is forced to buy technology from a developed country in order to participate in the big business deals. If it's a scam, it's a scam that will benefit the rich countries and the outcomes are all good ones for those rich countries (clean air, less fighting over oil and natural gas, etc). I'm not ok with that, but I consider that ok vs. proclaiming it's all a crock of shit and continuing on the road to ruin. So I have moved more toward the center on this one.

I just read some ugliness on al gore and his company that sells carbon emission company:

"... his company that sells carbon offsets makes him richer every time he gains a convert."

That's some ugly shit right there, but when I'm done here I'm going to look into the company and see if the claims made are reasonable or just political propaganda. However, even if Gore is a douchebag lawyer, psuedoscientist, that doesn't mean the rest of the movement is wrong. The links you guys provided where like a portal to strange new world. Most were asserted by politicians with support from science, that's ared flag right there. But other than a feeling of personal pride for being in the know, I don't see any reason to act in any other way than to support the greening of the planet. The opinion of 25% (arbitrary number) of a group + blind faith doesn't equal the truth. And for that reason, I can't justify changing my stance. The other 75% might be wrong, but who the fuck am I to proclaim that, given what I know, or what you know.

But my motivations for my original post remain. You don't come into a mustang site, where you have to assume that most of the readers are un or ill informed, and proclaim that global warming is a scam. That is totally irresponsible, totally retarded. The claim wasn't a benign claim like "Global warming remains a hotly debated topic" which I'm satisfied it is a topic with two sides. The claim was that it is a scam because 60 German scientist say so. That is a confirmational bias. Looking for information that confirms what you want to believe.

Susan Jacobson, a journalist, reviewed polls of the 18 to 24 crowd for her book, and noted that most were so uninformed that they could be easily manipulated by the government because they not only didn't have any opinion's on sample subjects, they had no idea why a given sample might warrant being picked as a subject. 2/3 of the group couldn't find Iraq on the map. 2/3 didn't know who was the first president. Her book is called The Age of Unreason. Her motivation was the understanding that if your populous is so stupid that they don't understand what they're voting on, you can't have an effective democracy. Where does one go to find high ratios of these groups of totally uninformed. How about a muscle car enthusiasts web site with a deeply blue collar, high school education crowd? Then again a site like that is also exactly the kind of place where some ill informed moron will make a blanket statement like the one made her comfortably because they know they are with kindred spirits.

Fuzzy, your going to have to take a little responsibility for our exchange. Your sign off was effing putz unconnected from the al gore bit. I thought you were directing that at me.

[catchtheroadrunner]

How about a primer?

Rather than spend the next 10 years researching the other side, how about if someone sends me a link to a site that they feels refutes a huge amount of the data claimed to indicate global warming. The title of a book would do, or a documentary. That way I can pick it apart over a few days and see if the claims are reasonable. The don't have to be absolute, just reasonable.

[silverstang]

have you guys seen Gores plan to stop hurricanes?!?!? The guy is a "putz", as fluff says.

[Fluffy The Rhino]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Fuzzy, your going to have to take a little responsibility for our exchange. Your sign off was effing putz unconnected from the al gore bit. I thought you were directing that at me.

Huh? What responsibility? I said my piece. Al gore is in fact a putz. It was in no way directed at you. It was a statement directed at an individual making money off of the fear of people. That in no way will ever gain my respect. I got no beef with you.

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by silverstang have you guys seen Gores plan to stop hurricanes?!?!? The guy is a "putz", as fluff says.

Would it be so hard to provide a link?

I'll bite!

Ar Ar rrarr, I'm all pissed off because you used the catchword gore. Now that I'm all pissed off, and all ears, what am I pissed off and hating al gore over? I need to know what to think about while I beat my wife and kick the dog.

Actually at this point it's not important what his plan is. Forget the link. I hate him just because you do. Screw al gore; tighty whity wearing, monogomous, non NASCAR watching douche. Probably drinks locally brewed beer too.

[Notcho]

Originally Posted by FluffyTheRhino There is nothing one or two people can do to stop global warming. While I believe it is only partially accelerated by humans, we are egotistical indeed if we think we can stop it from happening. The most we could do is shut off every car, train, airplane, power plant, industrial plant, etc... you get the picture, and only hope to slow it down by maybe a few months or years. It is my belief that al gore got on this train to make money and get himself in the spotlight. He's ignored multiple requests for debate on the subject because his motives aren't where his words lie. He didn't start using "renewable" energy at his mansion until someone figured out what his power bill was. Humans in general seem to be happier living in turmoil. It's as though we need to feel some sense of urgency, some need to be stressed out about some impending doom, whether or not it is real or who/what caused it. With that said, I really don't care about global warming. It's not that I'm insensitive. It's just not a concern of mine. To me, global warming is the same thing to me as if a comet were heading toward earth. I certainly can't stop it. So I'm not going to live in the fear of when it happens. I'd rather live life until it ends.

+ fucking 1

A "growing problem" is always good for business. When people stop spending money and buying stuff, all you have to do is mix in a little fear, and you can get lots of people on the bandwagon to do WHATEVER to "fix" said "growing problem."

Global Warming? No problem. You can fix it. Buy the longer lasting "green" light bulb for your home. It lasts longer and uses less power, while providing the same light.*
Put green E85 fuel in your car. It will reduce demands for foreign oil, plus it costs less per gallon.**

And as far as conspiracy theories, consider this. With nearly every major government operation, there have been countless conspiracy theories for each of them. You name it. Everyone loves to tell a story.

If you use dish TV, XM radio, GPS, Google Earth, etc., you know that all these devices that we take for granted rely on satellites in space... satellites which were put up there and are maintained by humans from Earth, (not aliens) ...and you accept the fact that we have sent crafts into DEEP space that send back images, but yet you still do not believe we are capable of sending 2 test pilots at a time to land on the moon, a celestial body close enough to see clearly with your own eyes..



*The 'green' lightbulbs contain mercury, which is totally ungreen, and they cost more than incandescent bulbs too.

**E85 contains 65% as much power as gasoline, but it is 75% the price of regular unleaded, and a large quantity of the Ethanol is produced overseas.

[03SonicBoom]

I love the weather outside. It's currently August 5th and I don't have my AC turned on.

[04mustang232]

All im saying is, ill go green, as is recycling, not burning plastic, and not dumping my used oil down the drain. But when it comes to costing me money, ALOT of money, as in taxation, then fuck the Earth.

[catchtheroadrunner]

I just heard on NPR today that Al Gore owns an Italian TV Station. I can't point out what's wrong with that, but it sits about as well as a catholic priest with million dollars in the bank.

If we'll except that global warming is accelerated by humans, and that the best we can do is slow it down by eliminating the human variable. Wouldn't the argument then move toward the cost benefit ratio of acting soon. And acting by doing what. If we are not to blame and it will happen anyway, shouldn't we start figuring out what the hell we'll be eating and where it's going to grow. How are we going to handle the distribution of usable land? Will imminent domain laws allow corp farms in areas that become dustbowls, to take over private farms, or farms owned by weaker corps, in the name of desperate efficiency to feed the population.

You know, if what I just wrote were the reality, I'd much rather tell people that we can ban together to stop global warming.

Or,

I guess you could tell people that we can slow it down, and then while everyone is living their distracted lives, author some legislation for your economic/social class. Harmless legislation now (the kind that makes you say "that's crazy, they could, but they never would"), but then under GW conditions 100 years from now, some business interest takes your children's property for some peculiar reason specifically covered in the legislation.




green is still good, even if the markets corrupt the definition

[Youngin]

Originally Posted by Nossit Oh God don't get me in a Bill O'Reily debate lol. I don't like Fox news nor do I want to act like I'm on it lol.

YouTube - Snoop Doggs says "F*** Bill O'Reilly"

YouTube - Snoop Doggs says "F*** Bill O'Reilly"

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by 04mustang232 But when it comes to costing me money, ALOT of money, as in taxation, then fuck the Earth.

I don't think you mean that! I think you're just trying to illustrate your point.

[101fng]

you are indeed a great debater catchtheroadrunner. i don't agree with your side of the argument, but damn you are so unbiased

[Notcho]

This is an old thread... but I must.

catchtheroadrunner... the thing that sucks about farming... (my family has came up around farming, since my grandpa, born in 1905) ...something that people dont realize, is that it costs LOTS of money, and is much like gambling (put money in your land, equipment, fuel, seed, fertilizer, time, etc. and just PRAY it rains, if it doesn't, you lose; try again next year). Farming is becoming more and more divided... since everyone wants their piece of the "promised land".. hell even in my time (21 years old) I have watched the city eat up more and more flat, treeless fertile farmland...(nobody wants to build houses/businesses on the scenic rocky hill country where even weeds wont grow)

My family's FARM land was split in half... by I-10. We were here LONG before the people who designed it were even born. If we sell the land, the zoning will no longer be agricultural, but commercial. If the city wants to put a gas pipeline thru the middle of it for their new gotta-have-it powerplant that people in town voted for, we can't stop 'em. We are just one small farm... things like this are happening everywhere, and the kids of their farming ancestors care nothing about farming... it takes too much work and doesn't bring in enough money. They don't have the patience for it and they will sell the land to the highest bidder. It really sickens and depresses me. I have seen it with MANY small farms in the area... the land my grandpa used to work like hell on with his mule is now a trashy trailer park, or some large factory that dumps waste in the river.

I am not a tree hugger, and I don't think humans are CAUSING global warming, but what you mentioned, catchtheroadrunner, is something that is VERY close to home nonetheless..

[Ke^in]

As far as fox news goes, everyone I see in public that bad-mouths it on TV, makes me actually want to watch it. Because the bad-mouthers are bat-shit-crazy liberal/socialist. I am POSITIVE they don't like Fox news. Fox isn't so much pro-righty as it is pro-America and Pro-capitalism. It just so happens right now, that's being anti-Left.

I say we give those that want socialism just that. Give them a free ticket to Canada. Lets just hope they don't come crawling back wanting healthcare from the US like Canadians have been doing.

Cafferty File: Tell Jack how you really feel Blog Archive - Canadians crossing the border for U.S. health care? « - Blogs from CNN.com

There is a reason for that. All the lefties in our government is going on tv bragging about Canadian healthcare. Why is it that I constantly hear them complaining about it then? And them trying to get US healthcare by crossing the border? I wont go into England's abysmal healthcare system. Who cares about "free" (you pay for it... you pay plenty) healthcare when it's crap?

[catchtheroadrunner]

Dude, don't get me started on how the farmers and others who used to represent all that was good about America are now gutting their butts plugged by corporate america, government, and the walmarters amongst us who never look at anything but lower prices.

Nobody ever wonders openly why fast food is so cheap. After the cost of labor, the raw product, preparation, and packaging, a cheeseburger is what? $.99? If you've got $7, you can stuff your face at a fast food joint, but a healthy dinner for one can't be had easily for $7, even when cooked at home.

Last week there was a story on NPR describing how private dairy farmers are not getting the subsidies of the corporate farmers. Beyond the unfairness of it, I couldn't help but wonder why anyone was getting subsidies at all. We are a fat fucking country because food is so cheap. Raise the price of milk and get rid of subsidies.

Back to the global warming.

Last night I re-listened to an interview with James Lovelock (of the Gaia Hypothesis), His credentials are listed at the bottom. He implies that we're screwed no matter what, that the time for determining our role as the cause or not is way passed and that we need to start preparing for climate change. He estimates that as much as 80% of the human population will not be around 100 years from now. That the other natural processes, whether triggered by us, or entirely within a natural cycle, are at this point, drowning out our effects on nature. When asked who would be left, he said anyone with the forethought to move farther north or farther south with regards to the equator.

Just two weeks ago the British Economic minister (Gordon Brown) made a statement regarding assessing what we eat, and what will be sustainable in the new climate.

However, on the shitty skeptical side of all this, I'm also seeing a lot of talk on how genetically modified crops will play a large part in the effort to feed the world. So your land may become too dry or to hot for grains that grow in the 70 to 90 degree range at whatever humidy you are at, but have no fear. Con Ag or Monsanto will have a strain to fit your lands conditions, and the expense will be susidized by the government at the tax payer expense.

So what I'm thinking is that it's going to happen, and big business is already doing the investing to profit from it when it comes. Our quality of life will not noticably change, our minds will be shaped by marketing, and the government, to enjoy the new reality. We'll spend our hard earned dollars vacationing in the desert spas and resorts of the south and south east (the southwest is already a desert). It'll be like going to the UAE, Iran, or Egypt, without needing a passport. Maybe big business will spend tax money KEEPING those areas plantable by every artificial method possible. It'll all be swell, you'll see. It's not really a stretch. When exactly did we start piping in water to irrigate crops? It's no different.


The podcast was called "Earth: A Century Hence" and I found it on itunes. In the same podcast is an interview with a scientist at a wheat strain conservatory where they are stockpiling 200,000 different strains of wheat. Not sure exactly why we need 200,000, but I'll bet it's expensive and gets a lot of grant money.



Dr. James Lovelock credentials.

Degrees

1941 - B.Sc. in Chemistry from Manchester University
1948 - Ph.D. in Medicine from London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine
1959 - D.Sc. in Biophysics from London University

Fellowships

1954 - awarded the Rockefeller Travelling Fellowship in Medicine at Harvard University
1958 - 59 Visiting Scientist, Yale University Medical School
1994 - present Honorary Visiting Fellow, Green College, University of Oxford

Prizes, honours and awards

1955 - CIBA Foundation Award for Research in Ageing
1972 - Three NASA Certificates of Recognition for: Gas Chromatograph Interface System and Method; Vapor Phase Detectors; Combined Carrier Gas Separator and Generator for Gas Chromatographic Systems.
1974 - made a Fellow of the Royal Society
1975 - Tswett Medal for Chromatography
1980 - American Chemical Society's Award for Chromatography
1985 - Stephen Dal Nogare Award
1986 - the Silver Medal and Prize of the Plymouth Marine Laboratory
1988 - Norbert Gerbier Prize of the World Meteorological Association
1990 - Amsterdam Prize for the Environment by the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
1990 - Rosenstiel Award in Oceanographic Science
1990 - made a C.B.E. by Her Majesty the Queen
1996 - the Nonino Prize
1996 - the Volvo Environment Prize
1997 - the Blue Planet Prize
2000 - the Goi Peace Prize
2001 - Royal Geographic Society - Discovery Lifetime Award
2003 - made a Companion of Honour by Her Majesty the Queen

Honorary degrees (Doctorates in Science)

1982 - University of East Anglia
1988 - Plymouth Polytechnic (now Plymouth University)
1988 - Exeter University
1991 - Stockholm University
1993 - University of Edinburgh
1996 - University of Kent
1996 - University of East London
1997 - University of Colorado, Boulder (USA)

[catchtheroadrunner]

Kevin, you've heard of medical tourism haven't you. Last year 200,000 Americans traveled to other countries for affordable healthcare procedures, and even at discount prices spent more than 2 billion dollars. My inlaws are a business family in Indonesia, guess where they go to pay cash for their procedures. Despite having two nurses and a doctor in the family right here in the US to look after them during their recovery, they go to Singapore because Singapore has a better reputation. And they pay total strangers to look after them because they feel a well run system is more beneficial than a few competent family members

Even Fox news has covered the online or canadian pharmacy prices issues.

Fox news is for idiots, or those that simply cannot stay attached to the TV unless it's juicy and turbulent. Your not building up your foundation bragging about how valuable it is to your knowledge base.

[04mustang232]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Dude, don't get me started on how the farmers and others who used to represent all that was good about America are now gutting their butts plugged by corporate america, government, and the walmarters amongst us who never look at anything but lower prices. Nobody ever wonders openly why fast food is so cheap. After the cost of labor, the raw product, preparation, and packaging, a cheeseburger is what? $.99? If you've got $7, you can stuff your face at a fast food joint, but a healthy dinner for one can't be had easily for $7, even when cooked at home. Last week there was a story on NPR describing how private dairy farmers are not getting the subsidies of the corporate farmers. Beyond the unfairness of it, I couldn't help but wonder why anyone was getting subsidies at all. We are a fat fucking country because food is so cheap. Raise the price of milk and get rid of subsidies. Back to the global warming. Last night I re-listened to an interview with James Lovelock (of the Gaia Hypothesis), His credentials are listed at the bottom. He implies that we're screwed no matter what, that the time for determining our role as the cause or not is way passed and that we need to start preparing for climate change. He estimates that as much as 80% of the human population will not be around 100 years from now. That the other natural processes, whether triggered by us, or entirely within a natural cycle, are at this point, drowning out our effects on nature. When asked who would be left, he said anyone with the forethought to move farther north or farther south with regards to the equator. Just two weeks ago the British Economic minister (Gordon Brown) made a statement regarding assessing what we eat, and what will be sustainable in the new climate. However, on the shitty skeptical side of all this, I'm also seeing a lot of talk on how genetically modified crops will play a large part in the effort to feed the world. So your land may become too dry or to hot for grains that grow in the 70 to 90 degree range at whatever humidy you are at, but have no fear. Con Ag or Monsanto will have a strain to fit your lands conditions, and the expense will be susidized by the government at the tax payer expense. So what I'm thinking is that it's going to happen, and big business is already doing the investing to profit from it when it comes. Our quality of life will not noticably change, our minds will be shaped by marketing, and the government, to enjoy the new reality. We'll spend our hard earned dollars vacationing in the desert spas and resorts of the south and south east (the southwest is already a desert). It'll be like going to the UAE, Iran, or Egypt, without needing a passport. Maybe big business will spend tax money KEEPING those areas plantable by every artificial method possible. It'll all be swell, you'll see. It's not really a stretch. When exactly did we start piping in water to irrigate crops? It's no different. The podcast was called "Earth: A Century Hence" and I found it on itunes. In the same podcast is an interview with a scientist at a wheat strain conservatory where they are stockpiling 200,000 different strains of wheat. Not sure exactly why we need 200,000, but I'll bet it's expensive and gets a lot of grant money. Dr. James Lovelock credentials. Degrees 1941 - B.Sc. in Chemistry from Manchester University 1948 - Ph.D. in Medicine from London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 1959 - D.Sc. in Biophysics from London University Fellowships 1954 - awarded the Rockefeller Travelling Fellowship in Medicine at Harvard University 1958 - 59 Visiting Scientist, Yale University Medical School 1994 - present Honorary Visiting Fellow, Green College, University of Oxford Prizes, honours and awards 1955 - CIBA Foundation Award for Research in Ageing 1972 - Three NASA Certificates of Recognition for: Gas Chromatograph Interface System and Method; Vapor Phase Detectors; Combined Carrier Gas Separator and Generator for Gas Chromatographic Systems. 1974 - made a Fellow of the Royal Society 1975 - Tswett Medal for Chromatography 1980 - American Chemical Society's Award for Chromatography 1985 - Stephen Dal Nogare Award 1986 - the Silver Medal and Prize of the Plymouth Marine Laboratory 1988 - Norbert Gerbier Prize of the World Meteorological Association 1990 - Amsterdam Prize for the Environment by the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences 1990 - Rosenstiel Award in Oceanographic Science 1990 - made a C.B.E. by Her Majesty the Queen 1996 - the Nonino Prize 1996 - the Volvo Environment Prize 1997 - the Blue Planet Prize 2000 - the Goi Peace Prize 2001 - Royal Geographic Society - Discovery Lifetime Award 2003 - made a Companion of Honour by Her Majesty the Queen Honorary degrees (Doctorates in Science) 1982 - University of East Anglia 1988 - Plymouth Polytechnic (now Plymouth University) 1988 - Exeter University 1991 - Stockholm University 1993 - University of Edinburgh 1996 - University of Kent 1996 - University of East London 1997 - University of Colorado, Boulder (USA)

This guys sounds like a real buzz kill.

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Kevin, you've heard of medical tourism haven't you. Last year 200,000 Americans traveled to other countries for affordable healthcare procedures, and even at discount prices spent more than 2 billion dollars. My inlaws are a business family in Indonesia, guess where they go to pay cash for their procedures. Despite having two nurses and a doctor in the family right here in the US to look after them during their recovery, they go to Singapore because Singapore has a better reputation. And they pay total strangers to look after them because they feel a well run system is more beneficial than a few competent family members Even Fox news has covered the online or canadian pharmacy prices issues. Fox news is for idiots, or those that simply cannot stay attached to the TV unless it's juicy and turbulent. Your not building up your foundation bragging about how valuable it is to your knowledge base.

I just read an article yesterday about how Canadia either needs to reform their healthcare (an official request of reform was layed on their government a few weeks ago). And, your worried about 200k going elsewhere? How many people come to America b/c we have the best doctors? Affordable healthcare is a joke. You are dealing with human life, and you better believe those doctors need to get paid. Where is that money coming from?

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by 04mustang232 I just read an article yesterday about how Canadia either needs to reform their healthcare (an official request of reform was layed on their government a few weeks ago). And, your worried about 200k going elsewhere? How many people come to America b/c we have the best doctors? Affordable healthcare is a joke. You are dealing with human life, and you better believe those doctors need to get paid. Where is that money coming from?

Nobody comes here for affordable healthcare. You know dam well that our prices are the highest on the planet and if you don't have insurance you pay every dime of that high price. So if people are coming here for healthcare, it's not the "affordable" adjective they using. Please provide a link to your source so I can assess the context.

And instead of asking me how many people come here, why don't you tell me. You're asking as though you assume the number must be very high. Is it? I don't know, I suspect you don't know at this moment either. But you'll get back to me.

[catchtheroadrunner]

"...As a result, they save an enormous amount of money. Offshore medical procedures can be performed for as little as one-tenth the cost of what would normally be charged here in the United States. And yet the facilities offshore are state of the art. These are modern hospitals that often are newer and have much better technology and equipment than hospitals in the United States. They are typically staffed by Western doctors and surgeons trained in Western medicine, and they provide equal or greater quality surgical care than U.S. hospitals. These surgical procedures are performed with the same technology and expertise, yet cost a fraction of the price.

For example, a knee replacement surgery in a high-tech hospital in the Philippines performed by Western trained surgeons might only cost you $6,000. Here in the United States you're probably looking at $50,000. Heart bypass surgery in Asia costs around $10,000. In the US, it's $60,000 to $80,000. Gastric bypass surgery in the U.S. can cost $10,000 to $20,000. Overseas it can be done for well under $5,000."

From what I've read, the US seems to be the preferred destination for total joint replacement, and cardiac surgery despite the high costs. Having spent the last 19 years in surgery I can tell you that medical staff competency isn't what it was when I started. The insurance companies have tightened the belt gradually. The market place has responded with increased efficiency by specializing everyone. All I do is surgery, I would flop around like a fish if you asked me to do anything else. I'm the only one I know that goes over a patients lab values with them prior to surgery. When I let them know that their blood sugar is high, most often they had no clue. How is that they come in for surgery, get a full work up to ensure the safety of having general anesthesia and a big procedure, yet nobody tells them they may have some other issues. I've asked surgeons this question and I get answers like, "I'm hear to scope his knee, I assume his General Practitioner takes care of that sort of stuff. I have co-workers that I wouldn't let touch me. And I'd say 20% of the physicians of every surgical specialty I've been through are not fit to operate, in my opinion. But you can't hold back ambition, and it's reallly hard to fail a resident once they've gotten in the door. Communication in hospitals is terrible, my wife has had to call attention to dozens of life threatening conflicts in treatment over the years because, for example, GI surgeon might order a series of enemas for a patient that also happens to be on dialysis, and under the treatment of a nephrologist. If the two MD's had talked to each other or shared notes this sort of thing would happen less. Enema's contain phosphorous, and if that patients floor nurse follows those orders to the letter, enough phosphorous can enter the patient to kill them (since their kidneys don't work). Just an example!