[Ke^in]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Fox news is for idiots, or those that simply cannot stay attached to the TV unless it's juicy and turbulent. Your not building up your foundation bragging about how valuable it is to your knowledge base.

Fox news is no better or worse than any other news station. I am not going to delude myself into believing otherwise. And I don't watch any of them.

As far as people coming into the US for healthcare... I am betting more people are coming in than going out.

Canada's healthcare system has been known to be a joke for a long long time. Go on IRC and join #Canada and ask them about it sometimes.

The REAL Patriotic Canadians will act like it's the BEST EVER!1 But those that just live there can't stand it. Wish Canada would fix it etc. It looks good on paper, but doesn't work very well in real life situations.

Like most socialistic ideals.

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Nobody comes here for affordable healthcare. You know dam well that our prices are the highest on the planet and if you don't have insurance you pay every dime of that high price. So if people are coming here for healthcare, it's not the "affordable" adjective they using. Please provide a link to your source so I can assess the context.

Obviously people don't come here for cheap healthcare. But the fact still remains the same, people come here for their healthcare.

Since it's very clear that we're not the cheapest, you must look at why people are coming here. If they can go anywhere else and get cheaper care, why are they wanting to spend more to come here? Obviously, they feel what they are paying for is better care then they would get elsewhere. No one is going to volunteer to pay more money to get worse care.

What it comes down to is a simple choice of the people. Do you want a system that's run w/ a socilised mentality. Or do you want a system that's run w/ a capitalistic mentality.

I personally (as would the others that come to America) would rather pay more money and get high quality care than pay less and get worse care.

[Fluffy The Rhino]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Nobody comes here for affordable healthcare. You know dam well that our prices are the highest on the planet and if you don't have insurance you pay every dime of that high price. So if people are coming here for healthcare, it's not the "affordable" adjective they using. Please provide a link to your source so I can assess the context. And instead of asking me how many people come here, why don't you tell me. You're asking as though you assume the number must be very high. Is it? I don't know, I suspect you don't know at this moment either. But you'll get back to me.

The number is high. I'm not going to bother posting links. I'm one of those "idiots" that reads fox news, cnn, etc... Maybe it's because they aren't extremists. Call me a realist, but mankind has been predicting doom and gloom since the dawn of time. Sooner or later every single living thing on this planet is going to be dead. Eventually the sun will grow so large that it vaporizes this planet.

I think the number of high profile surgeries that are done here in the states are testament enough of how good our health care is. While I do believe there are skilled medical personnel in other parts of the world, overall we're still doing pretty good. I believe that when most people compare medicine, they think of us vs. third world countries. Let's not forget Europe.

Singapore is the last place I'd go. Same with Mexico. Hey, they might know how to cut someone open, but I don't exactly trust their sanitary conditions.

As for our decline in "good practice" here in the states, that can be attributed to the change in attitude. No longer are people patients. They are now customers. And those of us who fill any type of customer support based profession known and understand that the customer isn't always right. The customer is usually an ass hole.

[TheUNZippee!]

If you think health care is bad in the states now, just wait until you have a socialized system.

It's way too early for me to go do a bunch of research and keep up with all you master debaters at this time. But I will endeavor to make some generalized statements that are pretty obvious to even the uninformed.

The United States has 300 million people. Overall, you're doing pretty well. People are not lined up in the street waiting for emergency room care. You're not on a waiting list for 2,3 years to get a general practitioner or family doctor. People in dire need of care are not being turned away en masse.

Despite a massive obesity problem, people are as healthy as they have ever been.


In Canada, you might wait 4,5, 8 hours in an emergency room. You might wait 2,3 years for a new doctor if yours retires, moves away, or you yourself move. Our doctors and nurses leave the country so that they can get paid and practice in normalcy, free of bureaucratic bullshit and policies.

And so the patients suffer, the system deteriorates, taxes go up, the bureaucracy grows evermore, people die, and meanwhile, they tell us we have to pay for more and more of our own care anyway.

Seen it with my own eyes. I have a wife who has went through some serious illness as you know. I just about lost her this past November because of all this bullshit.


Oh, and Canada has 33 million people.


Yeah, good luck with your socialized health care system for 300 million people.


I'm sorry, but health care is not a right. It's just not. You want to have good health care? Get a fuckin job and pay your own way. Why should the other guy who is busting his balls have to pay for everyone else.

Socialism does not work. It just does not.

[Cricket]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! If you think health care is bad in the states now, just wait until you have a socialized system. It's way too early for me to go do a bunch of research and keep up with all you master debaters at this time. But I will endeavor to make some generalized statements that are pretty obvious to even the uninformed. The United States has 300 million people. Overall, you're doing pretty well. People are not lined up in the street waiting for emergency room care. You're not on a waiting list for 2,3 years to get a general practitioner or family doctor. People in dire need of care are not being turned away en masse. Despite a massive obesity problem, people are as healthy as they have ever been. In Canada, you might wait 4,5, 8 hours in an emergency room. You might wait 2,3 years for a new doctor if yours retires, moves away, or you yourself move. Our doctors and nurses leave the country so that they can get paid and practice in normalcy, free of bureaucratic bullshit and policies. And so the patients suffer, the system deteriorates, taxes go up, the bureaucracy grows evermore, people die, and meanwhile, they tell us we have to pay for more and more of our own care anyway. Seen it with my own eyes. I have a wife who has went through some serious illness as you know. I just about lost her this past November because of all this bullshit. Oh, and Canada has 33 million people. Yeah, good luck with your socialized health care system for 300 million people. I'm sorry, but health care is not a right. It's just not. You want to have good health care? Get a fuckin job and pay your own way. Why should the other guy who is busting his balls have to pay for everyone else. Socialism does not work. It just does not.

I don't want us to wait to get it. I don't want it at all.

[TheUNZippee!]

You will do as I say, JP!

[04mustang232]

Originally Posted by FluffyTheRhino The number is high. I'm not going to bother posting links. I'm one of those "idiots" that reads fox news, cnn, etc... Maybe it's because they aren't extremists. Call me a realist, but mankind has been predicting doom and gloom since the dawn of time. Sooner or later every single living thing on this planet is going to be dead. Eventually the sun will grow so large that it vaporizes this planet. I think the number of high profile surgeries that are done here in the states are testament enough of how good our health care is. While I do believe there are skilled medical personnel in other parts of the world, overall we're still doing pretty good. I believe that when most people compare medicine, they think of us vs. third world countries. Let's not forget Europe. Singapore is the last place I'd go. Same with Mexico. Hey, they might know how to cut someone open, but I don't exactly trust their sanitary conditions. As for our decline in "good practice" here in the states, that can be attributed to the change in attitude. No longer are people patients. They are now customers. And those of us who fill any type of customer support based profession known and understand that the customer isn't always right. The customer is usually an ass hole.

you and sonic beat me to it. You get what you pay for. All this coming from an "idiot" who watches fox.

[Cricket]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! You will do as I say, JP!

Fuck that. I've seen first hand how shitty your health care system is.

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by FluffyTheRhino Singapore is the last place I'd go. Same with Mexico. Hey, they might know how to cut someone open, but I don't exactly trust their sanitary conditions. As for our decline in "good practice" here in the states, that can be attributed to the change in attitude. No longer are people patients. They are now customers. And those of us who fill any type of customer support based profession known and understand that the customer isn't always right. The customer is usually an ass hole.

Are you crazy, Singapore is a prosperous place to be and their private hospitals are state of the art. You wouldn't have any problems going to a private hospital in Mexico either. What are you basing your opinion on? How about Dubai, would you not go there either? You know that place has state of the art everything. Do you think asians are tech crazy in every regard except health care? Also, you wouldn't go there for surgery and go to a public hospital. Public hospitals in those places are for the very poor. You go to the private ones and even after the travel expenses, you're still ahead.

But I agree with you profoundly on the medical system treating patients like commodities. That's exactly correct. And at the end of the day if the documents are complete, the physicians, the system, get paid. Doesn't matter if the procedure fails three days from now. By then there's plenty of other people who have cared for the patient, to be blamed for what was really a shitty outcome before the patient was off the OR table.

And about your Doom and Gloom nonsense. At the end of the last ice age, the climate changed rapidly. Would you have told everyone back then to not worry about it and go about your lives. Of course, not. Perhaps one need not worry, but one surely needs to prepare. You're pretty content to assure yourself that it's just not happening. Yet you know from history that it does happen. Your fixation on a fatalist position is sort of troubling. Even something as simple as a business climate changes, and the nimble businesses survive, the ones that sat around resting on their accomplishments don't. What I'm stressing here is to be a nimble animal, not a cow grazing away blissfully oblivious.

[catchtheroadrunner]

Zip, is it possible that if the other 47 millions americans were insured, we might be lining up on the streets? I've worked at SF General, and Highland Hospital in Oakland and the uninsured are indeed lined up 8 hours deep to have their flu symptoms checked out on my tax dollars. We already have socialized medicine, it's just under a cloak. Anyone who can get to our soil can be seen in an E.R. and have their condition diagnosed and treated. Sure, you'll get a bill, but if you can't pay it, you'll file bancruptcy anyway. Plus, here in California we spend mucho tax dollars to supplement what the poor can't pay. These people end up in the E.R. because, while a hospital or any public or private health center is required to see and treat everyone, our local doctors are not required to do so if the patient doesn't have insurance. So a poor patient with diabetes can't get treated regularly by a primary physician. But when, someday they collapse into a coma, the ambulance will pick them up, the E.R. will treat them, and release them with instructions to follow up with their primary care M.D.! Who pays that emergency and ambulance bill? The tax payer.

It's already socialized, now if we can make it official, restructure the distribution of money, cut out fraud (I know, I giggle at that one too), and force the various suppliers to bring down the prices of drugs and consumables to prices more consistent with America's current economic climate we'd be better off. How come our Veterans Administration can buy drugs at less than half price, yet the rest of the medical economy pays retail? Including senior citizens on fixed incomes.

By the way, how is the Mrs.?

[04mustang232]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Zip, is it possible that if the other 47 millions americans were insured, we might be lining up on the streets? I've worked at SF General, and Highland Hospital in Oakland and the uninsured are indeed lined up 8 hours deep to have their flu symptoms checked out on my tax dollars. We already have socialized medicine, it's just under a cloak. Anyone who can get to our soil can be seen in an E.R. and have their condition diagnosed and treated. Sure, you'll get a bill, but if you can't pay it, you'll file bancruptcy anyway. Plus, here in California we spend mucho tax dollars to supplement what the poor can't pay. These people end up in the E.R. because, while a hospital or any public or private health center is required to see and treat everyone, our local doctors are not required to do so if the patient doesn't have insurance. So a poor patient with diabetes can't get treated regularly by a primary physician. But when, someday they collapse into a coma, the ambulance will pick them up, the E.R. will treat them, and release them with instructions to follow up with their primary care M.D.! Who pays that emergency and ambulance bill? The tax payer. It's already socialized, now if we can make it official, restructure the distribution of money, cut out fraud (I know, I giggle at that one too), and force the various suppliers to bring down the prices of drugs and consumables to prices more consistent with America's current economic climate we'd be better off. How come our Veterans Administration can buy drugs at less than half price, yet the rest of the medical economy pays retail? Including senior citizens on fixed incomes. By the way, how is the Mrs.?

Hey, Mr. Socialist, maybe one day you will open your eyes and step out of this "perfect world bubble" to realize that utopia's like that are just theories, and only a fucking retard would actually try to make them official. It will never work, and when they pass it, and were all fucked, I expect you to stand beside your Obama. Like zip said, you want insurance, get a job. Is it that big of a deal to ask someone to go out and work. God forbid they don't get something like LIFE handed to them on a silver platter. How pathetic.

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by 04mustang232 Hey, Mr. Socialist, maybe one day you will open your eyes and step out of this "perfect world bubble" to realize that utopia's like that are just theories, and only a fucking retard would actually try to make them official. It will never work, and when they pass it, and were all fucked, I expect you to stand beside your Obama. Like zip said, you want insurance, get a job. Is it that big of a deal to ask someone to go out and work. God forbid they don't get something like LIFE handed to them on a silver platter. How pathetic.

Really??? just go get a job???? It's that simple isn't it? Just go get a job! Are you suggesting that those who's jobs have been outsourced should follow them to India or China? Where do you live? I'm going to recommend people move to your area because jobs with good insurance are everywhere. What is the U.S.'s current jobless rate 04? And of those who do have insurance, how many work for companies that bought cheap health plans that leave huge out of pocket expenses?

"We are seeing the sharp increase in the underinsured because the insured are facing higher cost-shares and limits in insurance benefits - premiums are up but people are buying less protection," said Cathy Schoen, the lead author and senior vice president of the Commonwealth Fund. "Today, you can have health insurance and still go bankrupt if you get sick."

And as with everything, if it's not on the table, out in the open, it never get's fixed. What is this Utopia nonsense your talking about? Transparency?

I'm a socialsist because I don't want my tax dollars diverted unchecked? Is that your mentally puny way of cubby holing me so you can mount a defense? Do you know who I voted for? I wanted to vote for Mit Romney (Socialist????) but he didn't make it. Romney's state has nearly 97% health coverage and 9 out of 10 of their citizens are satisfied. You aren't qualified, or competent to argue with me. And to support that statement I'm refering to you most recent post in which your tools consisted of fear fear fear. Knowledge trumps fear Jethro. Go read a book.

Maybe you could provide me with a link to an alternative plan that has been put forth? Just like your runaway mouth in here, all I hear from conservative news is bad bad bad idea. Yet we all, Every fucking one of us, nows how the costs are rising, that Healthcare consumes several percentage of our GDP, and that our prices are the highest on the planet. And for all we spend, we are ranked number 38 on the WHO's list of top 190 countries for healthcare. And Fluffy, note that Singapore is #6. Chile is ranked higher, as is Colombia, and Costa Rica.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Zip, is it possible that if the other 47 millions americans were insured, we might be lining up on the streets?

Nope b/c a LARGE percentage of those people CHOOSE not to have insurance.

You still ignore the fact that if our healthcare system is so terrible and it's also way over priced (both of which you are claiming/implying) then why the fuck are so many people coming here for our healthcare? Why are they choosing the 38th best healthcare system that's also over priced? Why not chose one of the "top 10" systems?

[TheUNZippee!]

Originally Posted by catchtheroadrunner Zip, is it possible that if the other 47 millions americans were insured, we might be lining up on the streets? I've worked at SF General, and Highland Hospital in Oakland and the uninsured are indeed lined up 8 hours deep to have their flu symptoms checked out on my tax dollars. We already have socialized medicine, it's just under a cloak. Anyone who can get to our soil can be seen in an E.R. and have their condition diagnosed and treated. Sure, you'll get a bill, but if you can't pay it, you'll file bancruptcy anyway. Plus, here in California we spend mucho tax dollars to supplement what the poor can't pay. These people end up in the E.R. because, while a hospital or any public or private health center is required to see and treat everyone, our local doctors are not required to do so if the patient doesn't have insurance. So a poor patient with diabetes can't get treated regularly by a primary physician. But when, someday they collapse into a coma, the ambulance will pick them up, the E.R. will treat them, and release them with instructions to follow up with their primary care M.D.! Who pays that emergency and ambulance bill? The tax payer. It's already socialized, now if we can make it official, restructure the distribution of money, cut out fraud (I know, I giggle at that one too), and force the various suppliers to bring down the prices of drugs and consumables to prices more consistent with America's current economic climate we'd be better off. How come our Veterans Administration can buy drugs at less than half price, yet the rest of the medical economy pays retail? Including senior citizens on fixed incomes. By the way, how is the Mrs.?

Seriously? K.

Our health care system comprises 10% of our gross domestic product. It's already 15% of yours.

You say 47 million people like it's nothing.

You guys already spend more per-capita on heath care than we do. Now add 47 more million people.

I'm of the belief that you need less government involvement, and you need to fix the system you have. Start with crooked insurance companies and hmo's.


All of this is kind of moot to me however. See, I believe in a truly capitalist system. The horse is already out of the barn on this one in both countries. I am against socialism of any kind.

Socialism is a never ending whirlpool of bureaucratic sinkholes. All it does is take and take from those who work, to give to those who do not.

Why is health care a right? Why is it up to me to bust my ass to make sure someone else has what I work for? Where does it end? How many more taxes am I supposed to pay? I already fuckin give over 50% of every bloody dollar I give to the government. We spend over 150 billion dollars a year, and growing, on health care. On 30 million people. And you're talking about taking care of 'only' 47 more million people.

I tell ya, runner, I can't fuckin take it anymore. Socialist policies will be the undoing of your great nation, I promise you. It's not going to happen instantaneously. It will be gradual. The more you take from those who work, the less they have to put back in to the economy. And the more you give to those who won't do, the more you perpetuate generational welfare. And don't tell me that this is an overreaction on my part. Welfare is a gigantic problem in both our countries. People spend their entire lives on it now. People who bust their ass like you and I, pay their fuckin way. Why?

It's not right. And guess what happens. These are the people who vote in more socialist politicians. Politicians who promise a chicken in ever pot.

I am truly, truly, sick and tired of busting my god damn ass only to struggle from paycheck to paycheck if I'm not perfect with my money. I don't go on vacations. I don't have a garage to play in. My wife doesn't go shopping and waste money. We don't have tens of thousands of dollars on credit cards. I rarely buy beer. I don't have toys like snowmobile's, boats. My mortgage is not outlandish, it's 150k. But yet, the minute I have a few slow weeks at work, or an unexpected expense pops up, I'm struggling.

Why? I'm not a complete moron with money. It's because I still pay 4 dollars for a gallon of bloody gasoline. It's because I give 30% of my paycheck to the federal government every week- and the only reason I get away with not paying more, is because I take 10% of my net and put it in a tax shelter- a tax shelter that the government controls, and tells me when and how much I can take out when I retire in 30 bloody years.

Why? Because 1 out of every 2 people in this country work in some way shape or form for the government. How fucked up is that, brother?

I pay 2500 bucks a year now in land tax. For a 50x96 piece of property, no sidewalks, no garage, on city water but still with septic. My electricity bill is 120-150 a month.... guess why? Because the government took control of Ontario Hydro. There's another bureaucratic fairy tale.

In 1997 the government took over Ontario Hydro. At the time, the private corporation had a handful of white collar top level guys making 6 and 7 figure salaries. Since the government took it over, there are dozens and dozens of them. We fired one CEO for spending 50 grand in personal expenses on his company credit card..... then we gave him a multi-million dollar severance package. hahahahahahah fuck me full of holes man!@!#!!11!!

I want you to have a look at this list, roadrunnerie:
Public Sector Salary Disclosure 2009 (Disclosure for 2008) : Hydro One and Ontario Power Generation

Do you fucking believe that shit?

It's gotten worse since the last time I checked.

I could go on man. And on. And on.

Perhaps you and I would never agree politically or philosophically on the right to things like health care.

But brother, do not tell me you cannot agree with this:

The government is incapable of operating in a fiscally responsible manner, and being that they hold all the cards and thus are not held to an appropriate amount of accountability, they become crooked shysters and scam artists, who are interested in nothing except lining their own and their friend's pockets. Nothing you say to me will ever convince me otherwise. Ever. And so NO government should be charged with providing for the people, and they ESPECIALLY should not be charged with essentially running the company that would provide said service. This should be completely and entirely up to the private sector.


Men like Washington and Jefferson are rolling over in their graves.


/rant



-----------

lol. Forgot. The wife is hanging in there brother. Taking awhile for her to get her strength back this time, but that's only because our illustrious health care system fucked up their response time to the illness, and fucked up the insertion of the pic line. If we had the money, we would sue.

She also has to work more than I like, but we have to pay the bills.

Thanks for asking man.

[catchtheroadrunner]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! Seriously? K. Our health care system comprises 10% of our gross domestic product. It's already 15% of yours. You say 47 million people like it's nothing. But brother, do not tell me you cannot agree with this: The government is incapable of operating in a fiscally responsible manner Men like Washington and Jefferson are rolling over in their graves. )

Sorry to imply 47 million is plenty. In my head it's a huge number, and I don't know how it came out seeming trivial.

You are probably correct. The government is probably incapable, but so fa,r so is wallstreet, referring back to spiraling costs and decreasing coverage. I'm cranky at our leadership in this country, and how it takes care of the old, the uninsured (like the 500,000 who lost their jobs this year due to the recession). That I'm jumping into the experiment. It works in many countries, for a while anyway, but there are no other comprehensive plans out there, and I hope we've already established that the current trends are getting worse. I feel I'm wasting my money on a shitty system right now, and I feel it's reasonable to shift it into another direction. I feel that Obama has a very good chance of instituting an effective plan, however, his legacy will depend on it doing well for the 8 years he desires to be in office. I expect the plan to work well for that long, but I'm also concerned that if the citizens don't keep up on the proposed modifications after he's gone, lobbying, and self bestowed governmet raises to manage the program, will ultimately lead to it's demise through rising costs, and poor satisfaction scores.

And as you know we are not a deligent culture. We'll bitch about it, but then at the next elections vote for guns rights, or to teach creation in the public classroom. I'm cranky about this because when I say I live in the best country on the planet I don't want to have to acknowledge little details like, "Except for healthcare in which we rank 37", behind most countries that sell us coffee beans.

Men like Jefferson and Washington were also Anti religion (or at least anti religion toward the religions in their period). Jefferson even re-wrote a bible removing all references to nonsensical things like miracles. It's called the Jefferson Bible, and is the cornerstone to a church he instituted which was much like the Unitarian Church today. Come one, come all. I'm going to bet twenty bucks that you know that. I've seen your other bits about U.S. history.

[TheUNZippee!]

Do we even know what plan he is going for? So far there has been much ado about this thing, but I've not heard what he is actually wanting to do.

[TheUNZippee!]

Oh, and you read me wrong on the 47 million. You stated that if we insured the other 47 million people, would we be on the streets, and I was trying to imply that 47 million could make or break you. That's a lot of people to cover. My point was I am taxed out the ying yang in a country of 33 million, and you were stating that 'would we implode if we just insured the 47 million uninsured'... I say that is a HUGE deal.

[catchtheroadrunner]

Zip,

According to this poll, Canadians have it pretty good overall, even with your present health care system.

"Canadian cities dominate the rankings in the Americas. Vancouver (4) has the best quality of living followed by Toronto (15), Ottawa (19) and Montreal (22). In the US, after Honolulu (28) comes San Francisco (29), Boston (37) and Chicago (44). Washington, DC, ranks 44, above New York (49).

In Central and South America, San Juan in Puerto Rico retains the highest ranking at 72, followed by Montevideo at 76. Port au Prince in Haiti ranks lowest in the region at 202. In terms of the index, Vancouver scores 107.6 compared to Port au Prince's 39.8.

In terms of personal safety, Canadian cities again perform best with Calgary, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver all ranked jointly at 22. In the US, Chicago, Honolulu, Houston, Lexington, San Francisco and Winston-Salem all share rank 53. Elsewhere in the region, Santo Domingo has the highest ranking at 92 followed by Panama City (96) and Monterrey (99). Bogota (207) in Colombia has the lowest levels of personal safety. The Canadian cities score 115.8 compared to Bogota's 30.4."

[TheUNZippee!]

Numbers from the internet? As compared to me struggling to live paycheck to paycheck.

I'm telling you from personal experience, runner, our heath care system is in the shitter, big time, and any numbers can be put together to make things look better.

[itschristorres8]

so wait....did we actually land on the moon....i thought that was alwasy 100%

now its possible its false?