[HMUSN]

Hey Joey. You don't need to leave your name at the end of yours posts here on MM. We know you as Blatten22. All of our screen names are different in the mm "OL family"

We all know each other for the most part and this is an intervention. Come on man.. you can do it... post without leaving your name. You can do it!

[foursixblurrrr03]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! Wow. You and I are on polar opposite sides of this debate. Are you actually going to base any of your beliefs off of what the united nations says? Come on man. Tell me something then, foursix. Let's take a different tack, here, if you will. What, in your opinion, should be the role of government in citizen's lives?

What role should government take in people's lives... well, that really comes down to one's views on humanity. Do you believe that people are basically good, rational, and capable of self-government, or do you believe that people are basically bad and irrational?

While I do not think that there is a perfect government for everyone, I will explain some things I do not believe it.

Communism. Yep, that's right. I think communism is shit. Communism as Marx dreamed it is impossible, and the regimes that call themselves "communist" are nothing more than oppressive totalitarians.

Anarchy. Anarchists believe that government and society are too conforming and limit freedom too much. They believe that if government is removed, people will be able to live freely and peacefully. Right.... I don't believe people are essentially good. Well, many, possibly most are. But there are enough monsters in the world that make this view nothing more than a pipe dream.

Democracy. I do not believe in democracy because I believe that the masses can be swayed by persuasive speakers and flatterers who know the whims of the people and what they want to hear. My examples of this would be Hitler and Mao Zedong. I don't think I have to explain Hitler or Obama. No, I am not comparing Obama to Hitler, but let me ask you this: how many people voted for Obama AND knew his platform? If you ask people to tell you about Obama many will only be able to tell you two things: 1) he's our first black president (yay an end to racism) and 2) he promised hope and change. I simply feel that the masses can be too easily swayed by such people and that it can have disastrous results.


So what do I believe in?

I believe in a Republic. I believe in a system where authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. I believe in a system where the LAW is supreme, and NOBODY is above the law. I believe in a system that protects the minority from the "tyranny of the majority."

A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:
an executive and a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create
a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize certain inherent individual rights.


Simply put, I believe in Liberty, and I believe that a Republic is the best way to ensure it.

[Mustangshar]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 But that's just untrue. China in the 20's (before Mao Zedong or the communist party took over) was neither prosperous nor powerful. Most of the people were extremely poor. Almost 3 out of 4 people were peasants who owned little to no land and survived by working for landlords of vast estates. There was very little heavy industry. The vast majority of the population was poor and oppressed. China's poverty rate in 2001 was 8%. That's quite a step up. As of 2007, 93.3% of the population over age 15 are literate. China's youth (age 15 to 24) literacy rate was 98.9% (99.2% for males and 98.5% for females) in 2000. The country's life expectancy at birth jumped from about 35 years in 1949 to 73.18 years in 2008, and infant mortality went down from 300 per thousand in the 1950s to about 23 per thousand in 2006. Malnutrition as of 2002 stood at 12% of the population according to United Nations FAO sources. These are just a few examples. How can you say that the Chinese people are worse off now? Call it whatever you will, but you're making the Chinese government sound like they have never done anything for the people

Its because WE are buying all their SHIT! Thats why they are better off....
I'm just sayin'

Hell I would not want to live there!

[blaten22]

Originally Posted by Mustangshar EXACTLY! Thank you for coming back on topic. <no offense guys> On the radio a few weeks back, there was this discussion: If you could keep your job, would you then in fact, be willing to take a pay cut to price the goods more competively. The callers agreed to do that, but they also said that prices should be reduced across the board on everything. Well...that is an interesting though, but I know that would not happen unless we truly did have another Great Depression. I try to find USA made items as much as I can and OMG, please don't buy imported FOOD items! Check those labels at the price clubs/sams club/walmart you might just be VERY surprised to see what you are really buying.

I always thought the recession we're in now is pretty much like the depression. I mean 10% unemployment todays has got to be way freaking more than 10% was from that time period. Every one claims we're coming out of it but i don't think so. Gas is only going down atm because everyone is to scared to do anything because at the flip of the switch...Gas will sky rocket and the spill will be the blame.

The market showed this last week. Dow went down 300ish points over unemployment scare. The 428,000 and so job gain earlier this year was mostly census temp workers. 400,000 to be accurate enough. Unemployment will shoot back up in Aug after the lay offs.

Posting more on the subject at hand in another post.

Joey

[blaten22]

Originally Posted by HMUSN Hey Joey. You don't need to leave your name at the end of yours posts here on MM. We know you as Blatten22. All of our screen names are different in the mm "OL family" We all know each other for the most part and this is an intervention. Come on man.. you can do it... post without leaving your name. You can do it!

Lol will try.

[97S281]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 What role should government take in people's lives... well, that really comes down to one's views on humanity. Do you believe that people are basically good, rational, and capable of self-government, or do you believe that people are basically bad and irrational? While I do not think that there is a perfect government for everyone, I will explain some things I do not believe it. Communism. Yep, that's right. I think communism is shit. Communism as Marx dreamed it is impossible, and the regimes that call themselves "communist" are nothing more than oppressive totalitarians. Anarchy. Anarchists believe that government and society are too conforming and limit freedom too much. They believe that if government is removed, people will be able to live freely and peacefully. Right.... I don't believe people are essentially good. Well, many, possibly most are. But there are enough monsters in the world that make this view nothing more than a pipe dream. Democracy. I do not believe in democracy because I believe that the masses can be swayed by persuasive speakers and flatterers who know the whims of the people and what they want to hear. My examples of this would be Hitler and Mao Zedong. I don't think I have to explain Hitler or Obama. No, I am not comparing Obama to Hitler, but let me ask you this: how many people voted for Obama AND knew his platform? If you ask people to tell you about Obama many will only be able to tell you two things: 1) he's our first black president (yay an end to racism) and 2) he promised hope and change. I simply feel that the masses can be too easily swayed by such people and that it can have disastrous results. So what do I believe in? I believe in a Republic. I believe in a system where authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. I believe in a system where the LAW is supreme, and NOBODY is above the law. I believe in a system that protects the minority from the "tyranny of the majority." A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of: an executive and a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize certain inherent individual rights. Simply put, I believe in Liberty, and I believe that a Republic is the best way to ensure it.

The problem with this form of government is that corporations can make elections so expensive that politicians cannot get enough funds to actually campaign without generous donations that come with strings. The avaerage joe canot possibly win an election to anything other than maybe there local state house. Federal positions require far too much money to be fair to "any one" who wishes to run for office.

Our republic is run by big business now, not people trying to better the lives of their countrymen.

[TheUNZippee!]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 What role should government take in people's lives... well, that really comes down to one's views on humanity. Do you believe that people are basically good, rational, and capable of self-government, or do you believe that people are basically bad and irrational? While I do not think that there is a perfect government for everyone, I will explain some things I do not believe it. Communism. Yep, that's right. I think communism is shit. Communism as Marx dreamed it is impossible, and the regimes that call themselves "communist" are nothing more than oppressive totalitarians. Anarchy. Anarchists believe that government and society are too conforming and limit freedom too much. They believe that if government is removed, people will be able to live freely and peacefully. Right.... I don't believe people are essentially good. Well, many, possibly most are. But there are enough monsters in the world that make this view nothing more than a pipe dream. Democracy. I do not believe in democracy because I believe that the masses can be swayed by persuasive speakers and flatterers who know the whims of the people and what they want to hear. My examples of this would be Hitler and Mao Zedong. I don't think I have to explain Hitler or Obama. No, I am not comparing Obama to Hitler, but let me ask you this: how many people voted for Obama AND knew his platform? If you ask people to tell you about Obama many will only be able to tell you two things: 1) he's our first black president (yay an end to racism) and 2) he promised hope and change. I simply feel that the masses can be too easily swayed by such people and that it can have disastrous results. So what do I believe in? I believe in a Republic. I believe in a system where authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. I believe in a system where the LAW is supreme, and NOBODY is above the law. I believe in a system that protects the minority from the "tyranny of the majority." A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of: an executive and a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize certain inherent individual rights. Simply put, I believe in Liberty, and I believe that a Republic is the best way to ensure it.

All right. You've given me your political beliefs.

Now, specifically, what role should government have in our lives, and what should they provide?

This is my short list.

-A system of government that allows the people 100% choice in who they elect
-A military to protect the country's citizens & interests
-A judicial system
-A constitution that gives the citizen's basic rights

Other than that?

Nothing.

[foursixblurrrr03]

Shar, what is your response to this: With the grain that goes to feeding livestock, the US could feed 800 million people. With only grass-fed livestock, individual Americans would still get more than the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of meat and dairy protein, according to Pimentel's report, "Livestock Production: Energy Inputs and the Environment." And if the grain was exported, it would boost the U.S. trade balance by $80 billion a year, Pimentel estimated.

source: U.S. Could Feed 800 Million People With Grain That Livestock Eat, Cornell Ecologist Advises Animal Scientists

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! All right. You've given me your political beliefs. Now, specifically, what role should government have in our lives, and what should they provide? This is my short list. -A system of government that allows the people 100% choice in who they elect -A military to protect the country's citizens & interests -A judicial system -A constitution that gives the citizen's basic rights Other than that? Nothing.

Zip, I believe that the government shouldn't regulate self regarding acts. I believe that if I want to do something at doesn't infringe upon the liberties of someone else, I should be allowed to do that. So I believe in less government intervention in our daily lives.

However, I also believe in institutions like public education. It's hard to explain my stance because I believe that government regulation is necessary for many things and it would be impossible to type them all out. I do not believe in the completely hands off approach that you seem to be promoting. For example, I believe there should be government regulations in matters such as the environment, I believe that the government should be in charge of infrastructure, and other things like that.




Finally, to people who were debating me on whether or not China is communist or not, I would ask you to read this website and ponder the points that it makes, including why the United States continues to label China as communist.

Why China is No Longer a Communist Country | The China Teaching Web

[blaten22]

Originally Posted by 97S281 The problem with this form of government is that corporations can make elections so expensive that politicians cannot get enough funds to actually campaign without generous donations that come with strings. The avaerage joe canot possibly win an election to anything other than maybe there local state house. Federal positions require far too much money to be fair to "any one" who wishes to run for office. Our republic is run by big business now, not people trying to better the lives of their countrymen.

I agree with the last sentence to the book. Lobbying should against the damn law. Not only is the country for the most part to lazy to do anything bout. We sit as a whole and let it happen.

1. We complain there are no jobs. Yet a fellow countrymen of another nationality will come in and do the job no question's asked because they just want a job. If we get a minimum wage job...we expect 15.00 a hour to push broom a damn floor on the day of start.

2. 40% give or take i could be wrong on the precentage...won't vote. But complain about everything under the sun. If you aren't going to at least let your voice be heard and give a day out of your life to vote, then stfu when something comes along and you don't like it.

3. Money is the most evil thing to this country. Right next to if not equal to money is ourselves. Most people will do anything for it at the end of the day.

This country has lost in time what it took to get us started.

Hard work, Honesty, Equality among everyone rich/poor and just plain being humble to some one who is down on there luck.

Until that and lobbying is put a end, nothing will change...that or until china say's screw it and buy's us out.

[JakeM]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Shar, what is your response to this: With the grain that goes to feeding livestock, the US could feed 800 million people. With only grass-fed livestock, individual Americans would still get more than the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of meat and dairy protein, according to Pimentel's report, "Livestock Production: Energy Inputs and the Environment." And if the grain was exported, it would boost the U.S. trade balance by $80 billion a year, Pimentel estimated. source: U.S. Could Feed 800 Million People With Grain That Livestock Eat, Cornell Ecologist Advises Animal Scientists Zip, I believe that the government shouldn't regulate self regarding acts. I believe that if I want to do something at doesn't infringe upon the liberties of someone else, I should be allowed to do that. So I believe in less government intervention in our daily lives. However, I also believe in institutions like public education. It's hard to explain my stance because I believe that government regulation is necessary for many things and it would be impossible to type them all out. I do not believe in the completely hands off approach that you seem to be promoting. For example, I believe there should be government regulations in matters such as the environment, I believe that the government should be in charge of infrastructure, and other things like that. Finally, to people who were debating me on whether or not China is communist or not, I would ask you to read this website and ponder the points that it makes, including why the United States continues to label China as communist. Why China is No Longer a Communist Country | The China Teaching Web

The atricle you posted is mostly opinion. The same as yours. How convenient. China is a communist government. They call themselves that, they have the closest form to that and the rest of the world calls them that. "We" didn't label them anything. They labeled themselves Communist and subscribe to as close as you can get to communst belief's as possible.. While I'm not trying to call you stupid, all your doing is posting opinion. Nothing, besides a very few points you have made, has actually been fact. Just because you, and the author of that article, do not believe that China is not idealistically communist doesn't make it so. Good luck trying to prove to pretty much the rest of the free world that China is not communist.

[foursixblurrrr03]

Originally Posted by Towelly The atricle you posted is mostly opinion. The same as yours. How convinient. China is a communist government. They call themselves that, they have the closest form to that and the rest of the world calls them that. "We" didn't label them anything. They labeled themselves Communist and subscribe to as close as you can get to communst belief's as possible.. While I'm not trying to call you stupid, all your doing is posting opinion. Nothing, besides a very few points you have made, has actually been fact. Just because you, and the author of that article, do not believe that doesn't make it so.

Wait, you're going to call my arguments opinion? Because of one link? Really? Especially when all I asked was for people to think about the questions that it raised? I've been pulling almost all of my other answers out of my textbook because I'm in a political ideologies class and guess what topic we've been covering..... that's right...China! With real Chinese exchange students to give us their thoughts and personal experiences on the matter.

If you go back and read through the thread without a biased view, I believe you will find that I'm not the one basing my arguments based on opinions. I do take offence to you saying that I've only been posting my opinions, because I've been doing my research for everything I've posted, whether it be from reputable websites or from my textbook.

I do not care if I'm proven wrong, in fact I would welcome it. If I have an incorrect view of something, why wouldn't I want it to be corrected? I would be grateful. However, to tell me that I'm only basing my arguments based on opinions (other than when my specific opinion has been asked) really irks me because I've been doing a lot of research for all of my responses.

[JakeM]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Wait, you're going to call my arguments opinion? Because of one link? Really? Especially when all I asked was for people to think about the questions that it raised? I've been pulling almost all of my other answers out of my textbook because I'm in a political ideologies class and guess what topic we've been covering..... that's right...China! With real Chinese exchange students to give us their thoughts and personal experiences on the matter. If you go back and read through the thread without a biased view, I believe you will find that I'm not the one basing my arguments based on opinions. I do take offence to you saying that I've only been posting my opinions, because I've been doing my research for everything I've posted, whether it be from reputable websites or from my textbook. I do not care if I'm proven wrong, in fact I would welcome it. If I have an incorrect view of something, why wouldn't I want it to be corrected? I would be grateful. However, to tell me that I'm only basing my arguments based on opinions (other than when my specific opinion has been asked) really irks me because I've been doing a lot of research for all of my responses.

I'm not calling all of your arguments opinion. You stated what a ideal communist government is. You backed up your statments with fact. Where you opinion lies is in the fact that China isn't communist because they don't conform to the EXACT definition of communism. That is your opinion and I'm not saying your not entitled to it because you are. But the rest of the worlds opinion, including that of China itself, is that they are Communists.

[Ninjawafers!]

i have a question... since when did a question about why we buy lots fo crap from china turn into a debate on what kind of government they have?

[TheUNZippee!]

Originally Posted by Ninjawafers i have a question... since when did a question about why we buy lots fo crap from china turn into a debate on what kind of government they have?

Because they go hand in hand.

Stuff made in China is cheap.

Stuff is cheap to make in China because the citizens are underpaid.

The citizens are underpaid because the country is communist.

[JakeM]

Originally Posted by Ninjawafers i have a question... since when did a question about why we buy lots fo crap from china turn into a debate on what kind of government they have?

When Foursix said that China isn't a bunch of commies and that the US isn't a democracy.

[foursixblurrrr03]

But we aren't a democracy! We're a republic! And you're a towel!

[JakeM]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 But we aren't a democracy! We're a republic! And you're a towel!

LoL Your a Towel!

[cale2006]

holy crap guys...I left to go walk someones dog and come back to the worlds largest debate on china...EVER

[TheUNZippee!]

Let me just say this:

Just because it's in a book or because you're learning something in school, doesn't necessarily make it so.

Just sayin'.

[foursixblurrrr03]

Originally Posted by TheUNZippee! Let me just say this: Just because it's in a book or because you're learning something in school, doesn't necessarily make it so. Just sayin'.

Well, much of my opinion is such because of that class. However, out of a class of 20 students, we had 4 or 5 Chinese exchange students who we relied on for first hand information. So unless I can actually go to China myself, I don't see where else I should get my information from that would be any better than the opinions of Chinese civilians themselves.