[cale2006]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Well, much of my opinion is such because of that class. However, out of a class of 20 students, we had 4 or 5 Chinese exchange students who we relied on for first hand information. So unless I can actually go to China myself, I don't see where else I should get my information from that would be any better than the opinions of Chinese civilians themselves.

better watch out for them spys.....

[atlacatl213]

The US is a Federal Republic with old Democratic traditions.

It is now run by big businesses, keeping in interest in how to make their pockets fatter. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer... Basic economics states that in order to make profit, you should cut costs in some way... Hmm... Here's one....

China has a Totalitarian government with Communist tendencies. Labor is cheap and the products you get from here is also cheap.


If you're bitching about the quality of overseas goods, support local manufacturers and goods. Although that is already hard as it is when technological products has been been influenced greatly by overseas manufacturers. They're pretty much having their own monopoly haha. This could be true for many other products that we have in the states....

I think we've gone so far in deep in this garbage, ignorantly letting things go their way without putting up much of a fight for ourselves... Yet, things like illegal immigrants, weed legalization, pop culture and other attention grabbing 'issues' draw people away from the real issues at hand. Don't be stupid muchacho, blaming the mojados for economic downturn. Don't be silly amigos, who cares about some random skank and her alcoholism vs the law?

If things keep going the way as they are, if you people will continue to be bullied by the upper class, then I only fear that the second coming of the American revolution will be inevitable. Someone will get pushed too far and snap, and from that, it'll be causing an uproar...

[Mustangshar]

Originally Posted by blaten22 I always thought the recession we're in now is pretty much like the depression. I mean 10% unemployment todays has got to be way freaking more than 10% was from that time period. Every one claims we're coming out of it but i don't think so. Gas is only going down atm because everyone is to scared to do anything because at the flip of the switch...Gas will sky rocket and the spill will be the blame. The market showed this last week. Dow went down 300ish points over unemployment scare. The 428,000 and so job gain earlier this year was mostly census temp workers. 400,000 to be accurate enough. Unemployment will shoot back up in Aug after the lay offs. Posting more on the subject at hand in another post. Joey

Joey...I agree with you! And aren't we all fearful we'll lose our jobs? We are not out of this and I think it will be a long, LONG time.

[v606er]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 No, it isn't. It's sort of on a point towards communism. It isn't communist until the dictatorship of the proletariat peacefully gives up it's power. Which is obviously hasn't.

It is as close to communism as there has ever been, ergo, it is communist. Communism always fails because the dictators never give up their power, but because it is a man made ideology, and this is as far as any communistic government has ever gone, it is communist.

[wannabeimportkiller]

Wow that was a long, interesting, factful read.

[65eatsrice]

Originally Posted by wannabeimportkiller Wow that was a long, interesting, factful read.

you cant read

[101fng]

for unemployment, there's always federal jobs. but that's kind of the problem isn't it? what a curious conundrum...

[foursixblurrrr03]

Originally Posted by v606er It is as close to communism as there has ever been, ergo, it is communist. Communism always fails because the dictators never give up their power, but because it is a man made ideology, and this is as far as any communistic government has ever gone, it is communist.

My response to that is that China has really opened up it's economy. For example now citizens can start a private business or invest in a company. That's not communist at all. Private property rights have been enhanced. That's about as anti-communist as you can get. People can go to McDonalds then surf the internet. Please tell me what is communist about China. And no, the Communist Party being in control does not make China communist.

[v606er]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Pure communism, as described by Marx and Engels is a classless, stateless society. It's a government-less system. After the dictatorship of the proletariat educates the workers, the government is supposed to peacefully dissolve itself. Thus communism has not ever, nor does it now exist. Countries that call themselves communist are actually socialist.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Because we aren't a Democracy. Well yeah. We are a democratic republic. Is this really being debated? Anyway: According to Marx, there are 7 steps in the path to communism: 1) Economic Crisis: Marx believed that capitalism is plagued by periods of recessions and depressions, and believed that these crises were due to the "anarchy of production" that characterizes capitalist society. 2) Immiseration of the Proletariat: The bourgeoisie, because they are much wealthier than the working class, can better withstand the periods of economic downturn. However the downturns cost workers their jobs, their income, and finally their food and homes. However miserable their lives are as workers, they become much worse when they lose their jobs. This is called the "immiseration of the proletariat, and according to Marx, is inescapable in capitalist society. 3) Revolutionary Class Consciousness: The workers realize that the fault lies not with themselves, but with the system. They are willing to work, but there aren't any jobs. However, the bourgeois are comfortable, their children are fed, clothed, and go to school, while the workers children are malnourished, poorly clothed, and have to beg for food. Seeing this the workers will reflect critically on the cause of their misery. Marx proposes that they will arrive at the following solution: overthrow of the ruling bourgeoisie. 4) Seizure of State Power: Marx believed that the working class will overthrow the ruling bourgeoisie class in 1 of 3 ways: 1) nationwide general strikes that cripple the economy and bankrupt the capitalists, 2)civil war pitting capitalists, police and soldiers against the proletarians, or 3) overcoming the capitalists by outvoting them in a fair election. In any case, Marx believed that the workers will have the advantage through sheer force of numbers. In the end, Marx believed, the proletariat will take state power out of the hands of the bourgeoisie and into their own. No country has ever made it past this point. 5) Dictatorship of the Proletariat: After the workers have seized state power, the workers proceed to establish what Marx termed the Revolutionary Dictatorship of the Proletariat. This means that the workers will rule in their own interest. Their most pressing interest is to preserve the gains of the revolution and prevent the bourgeoisie from regaining power. The working class must use the apparatus of the state in as "dictatorial" a manner as necessary to prevent a possible counterrevolution. Marx expected the workers to be democratic and open in their dealings with each other, and that the dictatorship would be for, not against the working class. 6) Withering Away of the State: Marx believed that the workers victory over the bourgeoisie will start a transitional period that moves society away from capitalism and into full-fledged communism. Because the old competitive ways of thinking from the capitalist system will not immediately die, this first transitional form of communism will include not only the dictatorship of the proletariat but also continued use of wage incentives to encourage people to work hard. In this first phase, the rule should be "from each according to his ability, to each according to his labor." However, the most pressing issue is to abolish classes and social distinctions. As the bourgeoisie die out or see the errors of their ways, the need for coercion will fade away as well. Thus, the dictatorship of the proletariat will lose it's reason for existence and wither away. After the government withers away, communism achieves it's full form. 7) Communism: According to Marx, a true communist society will 1) be open and democratic, with all citizens taking an active part in governing it. 2) all means of production will be publicly owned. 3) economic production will be planned and orderly. 4) distribution of goods and services will not be based on privilege or wealth, but on ability and need. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Thus, under communism, people will be free from exploitation, alienation, and ideological illusions. They will be able to freely develop their many-sided personalities. Marx envisioned a future in which every human being will be able to become well rounded, not just the fortunate few. "In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as i please, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, shepherd, or critic."

Incredibly abstract and ideological goals that can never be obtained due to human nature. This makes Marx simply wrong. Sure anyone can write a book on how to do time travel, but it will never happen, ergo they are wrong.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 No sir, I shit you not. We are actually a republic. Similar, but not the same thing. wrong. And fine, let me ask you this. Without running to google, what are your definitions of communism?

After you just googled/copied what your book said? lol

Originally Posted by cale2006 good god batman...that took awhile to type, in the mean time we have completly went a different way in this thread

Originally Posted by Towelly Because China's government controls pretty much everything. There is no incentive to improve ones-self. The gov't is always working for the "Greater Good" and doesn't ever focus on taking care of the individual. Now, here is where you say, "Ok thats totalitarianism". But you'd be wrong. Because there is "Private" Business in China. If it was totalitarianism, there would be ZERO private ANYTHING in China. Etc, etc. My point is, it doesn't matter what Marx wrote because what he wrote ONLY applied to his SPECIFIC situation and his own idealism. In the broad picture China is MOSTLY a communist state. Therefore it is labeled as such. We are also MOSTLY a democratic state. Therefore we are labled as such. If you only believe in black and white with no shades of grey. You need to get out more.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 [COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]But that is totalitarianism. [/COLOR] Totalitarian regimes attempt to control virtually all aspects of the social life including economy, education, art, science, private life and morals of citizens. My point is that just because they are called "communist" means nothing. Like I said, North Korea is officially named the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Communism is NOT about controlling people's lives, it is in fact the opposite. It was developed as a way to even the playing field, if you will, so that everyone could attempt to make themselves a more rounded, better individual.

ummmm....yeah he just said "that is where you would say this is totalitarianism....way to prove that what he said was correct

Originally Posted by HMUSN Communism only looks good on paper. Plain and simple. It goes against the human spirit of competition.

Communism looks terrible on paper, and even worse in actuality. There is no way that any or Marx's astronomical ideals could ever come true on this planet.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 But that's just untrue. China in the 20's (before Mao Zedong or the communist party took over) was neither prosperous nor powerful. Most of the people were extremely poor. Almost 3 out of 4 people were peasants who owned little to no land and survived by working for landlords of vast estates. There was very little heavy industry. The vast majority of the population was poor and oppressed. China's poverty rate in 2001 was 8%. That's quite a step up. As of 2007, 93.3% of the population over age 15 are literate. China's youth (age 15 to 24) literacy rate was 98.9% (99.2% for males and 98.5% for females) in 2000. The country's life expectancy at birth jumped from about 35 years in 1949 to 73.18 years in 2008, and infant mortality went down from 300 per thousand in the 1950s to about 23 per thousand in 2006. Malnutrition as of 2002 stood at 12% of the population according to United Nations FAO sources. These are just a few examples. How can you say that the Chinese people are worse off now? Call it whatever you will, but you're making the Chinese government sound like they have never done anything for the people

I would not believe many statistics to be accurate that come from China, if I were you.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 What role should government take in people's lives... well, that really comes down to one's views on humanity. Do you believe that people are basically good, rational, and capable of self-government, or do you believe that people are basically bad and irrational? Both. Some people are one or the other, and some are a combination. While I do not think that there is a perfect government for everyone, I will explain some things I do not believe it. Communism. Yep, that's right. I think communism is shit. Communism as Marx dreamed it is impossible, and the regimes that call themselves "communist" are nothing more than oppressive totalitarians. Anarchy. Anarchists believe that government and society are too conforming and limit freedom too much. They believe that if government is removed, people will be able to live freely and peacefully. Right.... I don't believe people are essentially good. Well, many, possibly most are. But there are enough monsters in the world that make this view nothing more than a pipe dream. Democracy. I do not believe in democracy because I believe that the masses can be swayed by persuasive speakers and flatterers who know the whims of the people and what they want to hear. My examples of this would be Hitler and Mao Zedong. I don't think I have to explain Hitler or Obama. No, I am not comparing Obama to Hitler, but let me ask you this: how many people voted for Obama AND knew his platform? If you ask people to tell you about Obama many will only be able to tell you two things: 1) he's our first black president (yay an end to racism) [COLOR="Red"]this in and of itself proves that 'racism' is not over because if it were truly over, why would we even need to point out that he is our first black president?/COLOR]and 2) he promised hope and change. I simply feel that the masses can be too easily swayed by such people and that it can have disastrous results. So what do I believe in? I believe in a Republic. I believe in a system where authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. I believe in a system where the LAW is supreme, and NOBODY is above the law. I believe in a system that protects the minority from the "tyranny of the majority." ...so the democratic republic that is America... A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of: an executive and a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize certain inherent individual rights. Simply put, I believe in Liberty, and I believe that a Republic is the best way to ensure it.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Wait, you're going to call my arguments opinion? Because of one link? Really? Especially when all I asked was for people to think about the questions that it raised? I've been pulling almost all of my other answers out of my textbook because I'm in a political ideologies class and guess what topic we've been covering..... that's right...China! With real Chinese exchange students to give us their thoughts and personal experiences on the matter. lmao the book's opinion, interpreted by your teacher, and told to you for you to interpret......yeah, that's opinion. But isn't most everything opinion? If you go back and read through the thread without a biased view, I believe you will find that I'm not the one basing my arguments based on opinions. I do take offence to you saying that I've only been posting my opinions, because I've been doing my research for everything I've posted, whether it be from reputable websites or from my textbook. Everything you have posted has been you opinion, and that is a fact. That is just my opinion. I do not care if I'm proven wrong, in fact I would welcome it. If I have an incorrect view of something, why wouldn't I want it to be corrected? I would be grateful. However, to tell me that I'm only basing my arguments based on opinions (other than when my specific opinion has been asked) really irks me because I've been doing a lot of research for all of my responses.

I don't think I need to tell you a third time...

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 But we aren't a democracy! We're a republic! And you're a towel!

again...we are a democratic republic.

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 Well, much of my opinion is such because of that class. However, out of a class of 20 students, we had 4 or 5 Chinese exchange students who we relied on for first hand information. So unless I can actually go to China myself, I don't see where else I should get my information from that would be any better than the opinions of Chinese civilians themselves.

Wait, you just admited it is your opinion that is based on that class?


wow you had 5 Chinese foreign exchange students tell you that their country isn't communist. First of all, they are probably of a more well to do family if they are in a school that provides them to opportunity to go to America to study. And secondly, 5 kids saying something doesn't mean much, especially when there are nearly 2 billion people in the country. 5 kids doing foreign exchange by no means are experts on what government type their country is. To think to is ignorant.





Ok.



Edit: This is meant in a way to keep debating. Don't take this as a personal attack, although you are wrong.

[Notcho]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ionCode=na&#us

[v606er]

Communist - a system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single - often authoritarian - party holds power; state controls are imposed with the elimination of private ownership of property or capital while claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people (i.e., a classless society).


Yep, that sounds about right.

[TheUNZippee!]

Originally Posted by foursixblurrrr03 My response to that is that China has really opened up it's economy. For example now citizens can start a private business or invest in a company. That's not communist at all. Private property rights have been enhanced. That's about as anti-communist as you can get. People can go to McDonalds then surf the internet. Please tell me what is communist about China. And no, the Communist Party being in control does not make China communist.

Yes it does. How can you make that conclusion.


Tell me something. If a child is being abused day and night by a vicious parent, and then that parent, due to public pressure, starts treating the child somewhat better, beating them less, giving them a cookie here and there, do you applaud that parent for being less of an asshole?

No, he's still an asshole.

Listen, foursix, call it what you want. Make points about progress. That's fine.

But China is still communist.

They dictate how many children you can have.

They imprison people for criticising the government.

They have a politburo.

They censure their news media.

They ban the use of the word Democracy.

They control religion.

Intolerance towards the government is met with imprisonment without trial, often for long periods of time, and torture.

China executes more people, without proper trial in many cases, than the rest of the world combined. Capitol offenses include things like embezzlement and tax fraud.

Laborers are not allowed to organize, only being allowed to join state sponsored organizations.

The government monitors mail, both electronic and paper.


"The Government of the People's Republic of China has argued that idea of "Asian values" means that the "welfare" of the collective should always be put ahead of the rights of any individual whenever conflicts between these arise. It argues that there is a responsibility of the government to create a "harmonious society", and that in some cases it is necessary to persuade or force individuals to make sacrifices in their rights for the wider needs of society. It argues that a strong and stable authority is required in order to regulate the potentially conflicting interests of the public and enforce a compromise and that Governments with curtailed authority would fail to take on such a responsibility."

The Chinese government points towards an alleged rapid social deterioration in western societies, claiming that there has been an increase in: geographic, religious and racial segregation, rising crime rates, family breakdown industrial action, vandalism and political extremism within western societies, which they believe to be a direct result of an excess of individual freedom saying that “Too much freedom is dangerous.”





Not communism?

You call it whatever you want, brother. But China can lay claim to altering their constitution, and say whatever they want in the news media. But don't believe everything you read, and don't believe all the bullshit they are teaching you in school. Step outside the box. Go do your own research.

China is a communist country, period.

[Ninjawafers!]

will it work this time?

/thread

[blaten22]

They be stupid in today's Global Economy not to open up to it. Doesn't mean they still don't practice what they've always done. They just realize they could take advantage of whats going on today and make money/future investments out of it. A guy who is a asshole, pics up a purse for a lady cause she dropped it, yet goes down the street later and shoves some one else in a mud hole at the end of the day is still a ass.

Same principle to me still applies.