1994 Mustang Budget 302 Build - Page 9 - Forums at Modded Mustangs
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post #161 of 190 Old October 19th, 2016, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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Small update, I got myself a 20 ton hydraulic press from good ol’ Harbor Freight this weekend. Only costed me about $130 with a $50 coupon and 10% off for the parking lot sale.





Pretty simple piece of equipment. The 20 ton bottle jack bolted to that middle brace presses against the upper brace, which subsequently presses on whatever’s sitting on the lower brace where those black plates are sitting (height of that lower brace is adjustable too).



Bolted some wheels and casters onto the press so I can move it around easily.



The reason I bought this press is because of a T5 transmission I’ll be rebuilding in a few months. The T5 transmission uses pressed-on tapered roller bearings (pic below), so a hydraulic press and a bearing splitter are essential to rebuilding any T5 transmission.

Tapered roller bearings used in T5 transmissions.



The bearing splitter I bought along with the press.



If finances allow it, I’ll be getting a T5 transmission in a few months. Probably mid-December when the school semester is finished.

Last edited by BrettNorton; December 16th, 2016 at 07:25 PM.
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post #162 of 190 Old November 8th, 2016, 12:34 AM
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Literally only logged in to check this build. Keep it up.
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post #163 of 190 Old November 10th, 2016, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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Literally only logged in to check this build. Keep it up.
Quoting you here so you'll be able to see a my next update of some backwards progress here. You'll like it and hate it all at the same time.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 PM ----------

This is a picture from back when I installed the head gaskets on the engine.

Anybody see what’s wrong with this head gasket I put on? I’ll give you a hint:

THE SUMMABITCH IS ON THERE BACKWARDS!!!



Notice the larger irregularly shaped holes of the gasket (right end of the picture, towards the front of the motor). Those holes allow a higher volume coolant to flow from the block into the cylinder head. The other end of the gasket (left end of the picture, towards the rear of the motor) doesn’t have those large coolant holes in it. It’s blocked off. That blocked off end of the gasket is supposed to be at the FRONT of the engine, while the open end with the large coolant holes is supposed to be at the REAR of the engine.

The reason that head gaskets are made like this is for coolant circulation. In a basic cooling system for an engine, the cool coolant goes from the water pump into the front of the block. It flows through the block towards the back, where it then goes up into the back end of the cylinder heads through those holes in the head gasket I talked about earlier. Finally, the now-hotter coolant flows through the cylinder heads from the back towards the front, where it then goes into the front of the intake manifold and out the thermostat.

So, with those large head gasket coolant holes at the FRONT of the motor instead of the rear where they’re SUPPOSED to be, then a lot of the cool coolant is just going to go straight up into the front of the cylinder heads and out the thermostat… WITHOUT COOLING THE REAR OF THE ENGINE!!! THE REAR OF THE MOTOR WILL BE STARVED OF COOLANT AND THE WHOLE THING WILL SEVERELY OVERHEAT!!!

*Sigh* Yeah, I made a stupid-ass mistake and put a head gasket on backwards. I sprayed those gaskets with some copper spray sealer and ended up working fast to keep that sealer from drying. I guess I was so worried about the sealer dying up that I didn’t pay attention to which way I installed the head gaskets themselves. The picture only shows a backwards head gasket on the passenger’s side of the engine, but I’m going to assume that I made the same mistake on the driver’s side as well.

I was careless. This small, stupid, seemingly insignificant mistake will be costing me a whole day and another $150 in head gaskets to fix it. And HOLY SHIT, if I fired up the motor with that backwards head gasket, then my beautiful Ford 302 engine (that I’ve got at least $5000 sunk into) would be TOAST.









Yeah, I’m pissed about putting a head gasket on backwards, but thankfully I caught the issue BEFORE I fired up the engine. I don’t plan on running it until the end of next summer, so I don’t have to tend to this backwards head gasket issue right away. I’ll just have to buy 2 new head gaskets (I’m assuming that they shouldn’t be reused after being sprayed and torqued down) and take a day to tear down the top end of the motor, install those new head gaskets PROPERLY, and put it all back together. ALLLLL OVER AGAIN.
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post #164 of 190 Old November 15th, 2016, 07:41 PM
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150$ is a much cheaper lesson than a 5000$ one. Dont beat yourself up over it man. Everyone makes mistakes, at least yours was a simple one and caught early lol.
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post #165 of 190 Old November 16th, 2016, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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150$ is a much cheaper lesson than a 5000$ one. Dont beat yourself up over it man. Everyone makes mistakes, at least yours was a simple one and caught early lol.
Backwards head gasket = Shit

Blown up engine = Diarrhea

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post #166 of 190 Old November 20th, 2016, 04:52 PM
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Just good you caught it before running it. We all make little goofs like that atleast caught yours before it turned into a meltdown
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post #167 of 190 Old November 23rd, 2016, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Alright. HEAD GASKETS FIXED.

I tore the top end of the motor down, and just as I suspected, the passenger’s side head gasket was put on BACKWARDS. The blocked off end of the gasket was at the rear of the engine instead of at the front where it’s supposed to be.



I didn’t make the same mistake on the driver’s side head gasket though. See how the blocked off end is at the front of the motor and the larger coolant holes are at the rear? This is how a Ford 302 head gasket is supposed to go on.



Even though I’ve never run the engine, I bought new head gaskets for it since I sprayed the old-ish gaskets with copper spray sealer. Obviously, that old sealer would have to be removed from the gaskets so that they would seal right. But, removing the old sealer would require some kind of strong aggressive cleaner that will probably degrade and destroy the head gasket itself. So I bought new head gaskets that’re the exact same as the old ones. 4.060” bore and 0.030” compressed thickness.

With the heads taken off, I cleaned the head gasket surfaces of both the block and heads. Some of the copper spray sealer that I used on the head gaskets was stuck on the block and heads. Thankfully, some lacquer thinner and a few rags cleaned that old sealer right up.

After cleanup, I sprayed the new replacement head gaskets with more of the copper spray sealer. I set them on the block THE RIGHT WAY, WITH BLOCKED OFF ENDS AT THE FRONT OF THE MOTOR AND THE OPEN COOLANT HOLES AT THE REAR OF THE MOTOR. Installed the heads, torqued the head studs, adjusted and set the rocker arms, blah blah blah rebuilt the motor. HEY, IT’S ALL PUT BACK TOGETHER!!! Phew, that backwards head gasket was a close one!
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post #168 of 190 Old December 14th, 2016, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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Got some transmission parts from the Midwest Mustang junkyard yesterday.



This is a T5 transmission that came out of a 1995 Mustang GT. I’ll admit, $500 is quite a bit for a USED T5 transmission, but this one is real dirty (it's gonna need a real good cleaning) and looks like it’s never been messed with, AKA “rebuilt.” Plus, since this T5 was behind a V8 Mustang, the gears inside of it are not only stronger than the gears in a V6 T5 (300 lb. ft. torque capacity IIRC), but the gear ratios themselves are more oriented for “spirited driving.” 2nd and 3rd gear ratios are both lower on the V8 than the V6 (helps with getting the car going more quickly), while the 5th gear ratio is higher for the V8 than the V6 (keeps engine RPM down on the highway).

5.0 V8 gear set (what my transmission has): 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68

3.8 V6 gear set: 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.73



I’m HOPING that this thing doesn’t have any major issues, but because this transmission did come from a junkyard, I’m assuming that there’s something wrong with it other than worn out bearings and synchronizer rings. 2nd gear will probably have some issues (anybody that drives a manual transmission, especially one in a Mustang, ALWAYS hits 2nd gear the hardest), and some threads will likely get stripped out of the aluminum case (like the block for an engine, the case is the largest part of a manual transmission).

Another thing to know about this transmission is the proper way to transport it. You really don’t have to do anything too complicated, other than, oh I don’t know, PLUG UP THAT DAMN TAILSHAFT SEAL (where the driveshaft goes into the back of the transmission) SOMEHOW!!! Even through the Midwest Mustang junkyard place drained out most of the fluid already, that damn transmission continued to drip and drip and drip the whole time I was transporting it. What made it even worse was that the transmission and all of its dirty parts were in the back of my car’s trunk since I was kind of in a pinch and didn’t have a truck at the time. As a result of me not plugging that leaky tailshaft seal, the transmission continued to leak in the back of my car, and it left a nice pretty little stain on the trunk floor. GAHDDAMMIT!!!





Along with the transmission, I bought a T5 bellhousing that came from the same 1995 Mustang GT that the transmission came out of. This bellhousing wasn’t too cheap ($250) or easy to come by since it was only made for 2 years, but it’s the correct part for an SN95 5.0 Mustang like what I’m building and I shouldn’t have any fitment issues with it.



The bellhousing also came with the block plate and a clutch fork cover.



Right away though, I’ve got a little fitment issue with this bellhousing. The bolt hole on the clutch fork cover doesn’t exactly line up with the bolt hole in the bellhousing. I’m sure I’ll be able to fix it.



I also bought a clutch pedal assembly out of, again, that same 1995 Mustang GT. The little pads on the pedals where my feet would press against are a little worn out, and that plastic clutch cable quadrant will need to be changed out for an aluminum quadrant. There are also a few switches and whatnot on it that I’ll have to figure out as well. I also noticed that there’s no bushing, brake light switch, or any hardware on the brake pedal where it’s supposed to be. All of the brake pedal hardware is missing. Whatever, I'll be able to figure out all of those switches and get the hardware situation figured out.









Finally, these transmission parts came with a bunch of nuts, bolts, and hardware associated with installing all of it into the car.



The transmission teardown will happen a few days from now. Gotta get my final exams finished up at school before I start ripping it all apart.
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post #169 of 190 Old December 17th, 2016, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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Yesterday, I tore down the T5 transmission that I’ll eventually be rebuilding for my Mustang.

Now, I’m not going to bother trying to explain how the many parts of a manual transmission actually work, and what all I did to tear my T5 transmission down. To help people better understand what’s going on here, I’ve posted a few videos involving a transmission guy named Paul Cangialosi. This dude just explains all of this transmission shit so well and so much better than I could. You all will probably enjoy these videos of him. They’re what made me decide that I could rebuild a T5 transmission myself instead of having to pay somebody to do it for me.

How a manual transmission works (I'll admit, not the best video about this IMO)

How synchronizer rings work

T5 transmission teardown video

Now, in that Paul Cangialosi T5 teardown video, the transmission he was going through came out of a Fox Body Mustang and it had already been messed with and abused by a previous owner. Obviously, it had a few issues other than just worn bearings and synchro rings. 2nd gear and the 1-2 slider were both trashed (common issue with T5’s), the 1-2 shift fork was broken, a few threads had been stripped out of the case, and the shifter box of the tail housing was damaged.



As for my T5 transmission though, it’s very dirty on the outside like it had been sitting in a shop or some place for many years. But holy mother of God, THIS THING’S IN AMAZING SHAPE ON THE INSIDE. Hell, I’m even going to go so far to say that it probably doesn’t even have 50,000 miles on it. It literally looks that good and clean on the inside. All the problems I had fears of, namely issues with 2nd gear and stripping threads out, both of which are common problems that T5 transmissions usually have, seem to be NON-EXISTENT in this one that I’ve got.



Now for the actual teardown…

Shifter removed. The factory shifters on these transmissions don’t have any shift stops built into them, and as you can see, this is a factory shifter that I took off my transmission. That’s just amazing. The fact that the shifter hasn’t even been messed with in my transmission’s 20+ years of life really goes to show how much of a virgin it is.





Front bearing retainer removed. It only had a single shim inside of it, which is what was used by the factory. A good indicator that this transmission’s never been rebuilt before.





Tail housing removed. I was a bit surprised to see that my transmission has a reverse synchronizer in it, since it’s supposedly not very common in T5’s.





Top cover taken off. Both the shift forks and shift fork pads look to be in good shape. Though the 1-2 shift pads are a cream-like color while the 3-4 shift pads are black. I wonder why?





This picture doesn’t really show it, but all of the engagement teeth of the gears look to be in good shape. Only a tiny wee bit of wear on them.



Shift forks and shift rail taken out of the cover.



There’s a snap ring that holds the 5-Reverse slider assembly onto the counter shaft. I had a hell of a time getting this thing off because of the cheap Harbor Freight snap ring pliers I bought a few months ago. Those damn cheap-ass pliers wouldn’t spread the ring far enough to remove it. I had to stop working, drive 10 minutes into town, and buy some better snap ring pliers to get this thing off.



Fuck you in the ass with a cactus you cheap POS snap ring pliers.



Had to use a two-jaw puller to remove the 5th drive gear and the 5-Reverse slider assembly.





Removed the input shaft / 4th gear, and yes a few of the needle bearings inside of it fell out.



Main shaft / Output shaft pulled out of the case.



The counter gear has its own retainer plate holding it on the back of the case. Like the front bearing retainer, the rear counter gear retainer plate only had a single shim inside of it.



The rear counter shaft bearing has to be pressed off in order for the counter gear to be removed. This was a job for my Harbor Freight shop press and bearing splitter.





Counter gear removed. It looks to be in very good shape.



Reverse idler gear and rails removed. The reverse idler itself is a little worn, but it’s still very usable.





Here is the case completely disassembled. I left the 5th - Reverse lever inside since it would be a bitch of a job to take it out. Supposedly, that big torx bolt holding it in needs to be heated up really hot to be removed. The case itself though is very clean inside, and thankfully, none of the threads are stripped out on it at all.







Disassembly of the main shaft began with me removing the 3-4 slider assembly and 3rd gear. Holding the main shaft in a vice (with soft towels of course) made it a lot easier to take apart.



The 5th driven gear not only has a snap ring holding it in, but it’s also a pretty tight fit on the main shaft. Not a press-fit like the bearings, just tight enough that you can’t pull it off by hand. I used the press to remove it.



Finally, here’s the main shaft completely disassembled. The 1-2 hub (what the 1-2 slider slides on) is still on there because it’s not supposed to come off or be removed.



The ONLY issue inside this transmission is this 2nd gear synchronizer ring. None of the friction paper has fallen or burned off of it, but when I press it against 2nd gear (like what Paul Cangialosi did in his synchronizer ring video), it doesn’t grab the gear like a good synchro ring is supposed to.



Good synchro rings are supposed to have a bit of a gap (0.030” to 0.060”) away from the engagement teeth of the gear. You can see here, however, that the synchro ring sits flat against the 2nd gear when I press on it. That’s a pretty good indicator that the 2nd gear synchro ring is trashed.



All of the other synchronizer rings in the transmission seemed to work pretty well, but I can tell that they’re a little worn. Probably a good idea for me to rebuild my transmission with all-new synchro rings.

And lastly, here is my T5 transmission completely taken apart.



I’ll be going through and rebuilding this whole thing in about a month or possibly a few months. Don’t exactly have the disposable income to be blowing on transmission parts right now.

Speaking of transmission parts, that transmission rebuilder guy Paul Cangialosi also runs a website called 5speeds.com where he sells all kinds of rebuild kits and parts for many manual transmissions. I’ll be buying a T5 rebuild kit as well as a few other parts from him when the time comes.

For now though, I’ve got all the transmission parts bagged up to keep dirt, dust, hairs, etc. off of them. I can’t wait to put it all back together.

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post #170 of 190 Old December 19th, 2016, 11:11 PM
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Man I remember the last time I did a trans I put it all back together and one clip screwed me over haha. I'm excited to see it run though.
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post #171 of 190 Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Got myself a new phone not too long ago, so the pictures might look a little different than what you normally see.

Spent some time cleaning out the transmission this weekend.

Started by cleaning all of the bolts that I’ll be reusing. A lot of them had sealer and Loctite from the factory stuck to them, so I ran each one through a die to clean up the threads.



To clean the bolts up even further, I put them in a bowl of lacquer thinner and let them soak overnight.



As for the transmission itself, I ran a tap through all of the threaded holes in the case to clean them out as well.



I followed up with cleaning off the bellhousing (not in the picture, but I got it cleaned), the case, the top cover, and the tail housing. Because these parts are all made of aluminum, taking a steel wire wheel to them would probably damage them somehow. What I ended up doing was giving the parts an initial dose of brake cleaner (which I’ll admit, didn’t clean anything very well at all), and then shooting them with a pressure washer.



The little magnet at the bottom of the case needed to be cleaned off as well. It catches all of the metal shavings created from the gears meshing together, so that said shavings don’t raise hell and tear things up inside the transmission. Obviously, the magnet in my transmission was pretty nasty, even with the pressure washing.



The magnet itself is held in by a flat piece of metal that acts as a nut. I unscrewed that flat nut and pried the magnet out with a screwdriver since it’s also glued into the case. With the magnet out, I thoroughly wiped all of the metal shavings off of it. Ah, much better!



Finally, I painted all of the outer transmission parts.

I wire wheeled the smaller parts and painted them black





Drilled out somewhat of a template in a cardboard box and painted all of the bolt heads black





Painted the aluminum parts silver. Because the brake cleaner and pressure washing didn’t get all the grease and shit off of anything, the paint only looks better in the pictures than it actually does.

Bellhousing



Top cover



Masked off the case just like I did with the engine block. I coated the front sealing surface with some lithium grease to keep paint off of it.





The case painted



Before I painted the tail housing, I decided that I wanted to press the tail shaft bushing out of it. A 1 ¼” socket seemed to fit around the bushing perfectly, and I got the whole thing set up on the press. I pressed on it quite a bit, and things started feeling pretty tight, but before too long, POP! The old tail shaft bushing came out. Alright!



I went to go get the socket out of the tail housing, and… OH, SHIT.





AH SON OF A (much screaming and many many cuss words later)!!! I CRACKED THE (many many cuss words) TAIL HOUSING!!! THE (many many cuss words) THING’S JUNK NOW!!!



*Long sigh* Welp! I’ve got just about all the parts of the transmission cleaned and painted, that’s a good accomplishment. But whoo-fuckin’-pee, now I gotta go out and find another damn tail housing for the thing! Oh yeah, that’s gonna be REAL fun if you can sense the sarcasm here.

Last edited by BrettNorton; January 20th, 2017 at 11:15 PM.
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post #172 of 190 Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:58 PM
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this is one hell of a build. good work!

2011 GT | M6 | Brembo | Sterling Grey | 3.73's | Bravado Tributes | Nitto NT05s | BMR Supsension | Lund Tune | MGW Race Spec | Steeda CAI | Jeg's Cat Deletes | Borla S-types | Resonator Delete | MT-82 #2 | Miscellaneous
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post #173 of 190 Old January 4th, 2017, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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this is one hell of a build. good work!
lol It's got its fair share of ups and downs. Thanks man.
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post #174 of 190 Old January 12th, 2017, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Got all the parts I need to rebuild the transmission.

This is a T5 transmission rebuild kit from Paul Cangialosi at 5speeds.com. It’s got nearly all of the small items that I’ll need to rebuild the transmission. All of the synchronizer rings (carbon fiber-lined rings, same ones used in the T56 6-speed), keys, springs, bearings, seals, plugs, washers, shims, etc. are included.



This is Paul Cangialosi’s counter gear stabilizer plate. The VERY FIRST ORIGINAL COUNTER GEAR STABLIZER PLATE, designed by Paul way back in the 90’s. The old counter gear plate out of the transmission is just a piece of stamped steel while this new plate is made of billet steel IIRC. Obviously, this new plate is much stronger and won’t stretch out like the old one, but it also actually holds the rear counter gear bearing in place, something that the old plate never did.



Thankfully, Paul had another T5 tail housing in stock to replace the one that I destroyed when I tried to press the old tail shaft bushing out of it.



Even though the tail shaft bushing is a replaceable item in a T5, the bore that it sits in often gets distorted somehow when the old one’s pulled out and the new one’s pressed in. Very rarely is a T5 tail shaft bushing ever successfully replaced without any issues. Sometimes, the driveshaft yoke won’t fit right (bushing too tight), but that can be easily fixed by honing / reaming the bushing out a little bit. More often than not however, the new bushing doesn’t fit snug in the tail housing, making the bushing itself (and subsequently, the driveshaft) wobbly, which causes HUGE vibrations in the car. Apparently, the only true way to replace a T5 tail shaft bushing, AND KNOW WITH ABSOLUTE COMPLETE CERTAINTY THAT IT’S DONE RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, is to basically go out and buy a brand new tail housing that already has the bushing installed.

I bought a 28-spline driveshaft yoke to test the bushing out, and thankfully, the bushing in this particular tail housing feels pretty good, not too much wobbliness in the yoke. I pressure washed the tail housing, degreased it, and painted it just like with the other aluminum transmission parts.



The front bearing retainer of a T5 bolts onto the front of the transmission and holds both the input shaft and throw-out bearings in place. It also acts as the front seal for the transmission. The steel sleeve of the old front bearing retainer (what the throw-out bearing rides on) was pretty rusty crusty, and I didn’t feel too comfortable about trying to clean the thing without damaging it, so I bought a new one.



This is an SVE shifter. It wasn’t too expensive (read, it was only $70, which is pretty cheap for an aftermarket shifter), but it’s much nicer than the old factory shifter. The shifter base itself is made of billet aluminum, instead of stamped steel. There are shift stops integrated into this shifter, whereas the factory shifter has no stops in it at all. And finally, the “throw” of this shifter is a good bit shorter than that of the factory shifter, hence the term “short-throw shifter.”



This decision took a pretty good amount of research on my part, but I decided to go with buying a stock rubber transmission mount for my car over a urethane mount.



Biggest reason for choosing the rubber mount is the design of my car’s transmission cross member.

With a Fox Body Mustang, the transmission cross member has bushings in it to dampen driveline vibrations and to adjust the position of the cross member itself. Those cross member bushings are why not too many Fox Body owners have excessive vibration issues with the urethane transmission mounts.



In an SN95 Mustang though (the car I’m working with), the transmission cross member has no bushings in it. It’s just a completely solid piece of steel that doesn’t dampen any vibrations whatsoever. If I were to put a urethane transmission mount in my car, it’ll more than likely shake and vibrate the whole thing to the point that I couldn’t stand it. I don’t think I’ll be having those possible vibration issues with a rubber mount. This solid transmission cross member is why I’m using a rubber mount in my car.



Transmission rebuild will be happening some time soon.

Last edited by BrettNorton; January 20th, 2017 at 11:34 PM.
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post #175 of 190 Old January 13th, 2017, 12:02 AM
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Static compression is 9.4:1. With the TFS1 cam, dynamic compression is about 8.5:1, which is supposedly the max you'd want to run with aluminum heads if you want to stay in pump gas range.
Your actual dynamic compression is closer to 7.4:1. At 8.5, that must be calculated with .050" numbers. The cylinder doesn't start to build pressure until the valve is fully closed which doesn't occur for another 25+ degrees. Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't caught up on the whole thread yet.

You could easily run a full point higher static compression on that engine without consequence. Though at 9.4 static, you could run 87 octane all you want.

Also, even 8.5 dynamic is what I would consider a maximum with IRON heads. With aluminum, don't be afraid to raise the compression up.

Also, I didn't see it mentioned and sorry if I missed it, but what is your quench distance set at?
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post #176 of 190 Old January 14th, 2017, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Your actual dynamic compression is closer to 7.4:1. At 8.5, that must be calculated with .050" numbers. The cylinder doesn't start to build pressure until the valve is fully closed which doesn't occur for another 25+ degrees. Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't caught up on the whole thread yet.

You could easily run a full point higher static compression on that engine without consequence. Though at 9.4 static, you could run 87 octane all you want.

Also, even 8.5 dynamic is what I would consider a maximum with IRON heads. With aluminum, don't be afraid to raise the compression up.

Also, I didn't see it mentioned and sorry if I missed it, but what is your quench distance set at?
Well, let’s see the cam card.



...Shit… *Long annoyed sigh* You’re right.

If it helps to explain anything, I never got around to degreeing the cam, which is probably why I never realized anything about any of that 0.050” cam timing stuff.

I do understand that static compression only truly works out if the valve could close instantly on a dime. Dynamic compression considers the valve still being open for a short time while the piston is rising up in the cylinder, which bleeds off some of the pressure / compression in said cylinder. The reality is that the valve takes a while to close due to the lifter making its way from the lobe to the base circle of the cam. That’s why we have dynamic compression.

That 38* ABDC number is what I plugged into one of those dynamic compression calculators, and it gave me 8.5:1 dynamic compression, so you’re right about that being calculated with 0.050” numbers. It wasn’t until you mentioned it yesterday though (about 8 months after I got the cam card), that I realized the 38* number was at 0.050” tappet rise, whatever the hell that means.

I don’t get how in the hell the valve closes at 0.050” tappet rise. Isn’t it supposed to close when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam? According to my calculations (and your suggestion of 7.4:1 dynamic compression), the TFS1 cam actually closes my engine’s intake valve at around 65* ABDC. Why in the bull-fuckin’ hell didn’t Trick Flow give me that number on the card along with the 38* ABDC number?

So from what I’m understanding, in a nutshell, I’m putting power on the table / losing horsepower by keeping my engine’s compression too conservative at 9.4:1 static and 7.4:1 dynamic.

Quench distance is 0.041” with 0.011” deck clearance and a 0.030” head gasket.

Last edited by BrettNorton; January 24th, 2017 at 01:54 PM.
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post #177 of 190 Old January 14th, 2017, 12:35 PM
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Well, let’s see the cam card.



...Shit… *Long annoyed sigh* You’re right.

If it helps to explain anything, I never got around to degreeing the cam, which is probably why I never realized anything about any of that 0.050” cam timing stuff.

I do understand that static compression only truly works out if the valve could close instantly on a dime. Dynamic compression considers the valve still being open for a short time while the piston is rising up in the cylinder, which bleeds off some of the pressure / compression in said cylinder. The reality is that the valve takes a while to close due to the lifter making its way from the lobe to the base circle of the cam. That’s why we have dynamic compression.

That 38* ABDC number is what I plugged into one of those dynamic compression calculators, and it gave me 8.5:1 dynamic compression, so you’re right about that being calculated with 0.050” numbers. It wasn’t until you mentioned it yesterday though (about 8 months after I got the cam card), that I realized the 38* number was at 0.050” tappet rise, whatever the hell that means.

I don’t get how in the hell the valve closes at 0.050” tappet rise. Isn’t it supposed to close when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam? According to my calculations (and your suggestion of 7.4:1 dynamic compression), the TFS1 cam actually closes my engine’s intake valve at around 65* ABDC. Why in the bull-fuckin’ hell didn’t Trick Flow give me that number on the card along with the 38* ABDC number?

So from what I’m understanding, in a nutshell, I’m putting power on the table / losing horsepower by keeping my engine’s compression too conservative at 9.4:1 static and 7.4:1 dynamic.

Quench distance is 0.041” with 0.011” deck clearance and a 0.030” head gasket.
Quench distance is great.

You can calculate the actual intake valve closing event as long as you know the intake duration and the centerline of the lobe.

Example: TFS1 cam with 275* of intake duration.

On that cam card, they list the centerline as "max lift" which for the intake is at 108* ATDC. Now what you do is you have to calculate how much further the piston has to travel to the bottom of the cylinder and then the remainder is where the valve will seat.

275* / 2 = 137.5*

We're only looking at 137.5* of duration since we're only interested in the back half of the duration at max lift. Considering 180* of rotation ATDC to put the piston at BDC, we have to subtract the max lift degree from this number and then subtract the difference from 137.5.

180 - 108 = 72 degrees

137.5 - 72 = 65.5 degrees

So after the piston reaches the bottom of the cylinder, you know you have 65.5 degrees of rotation to go before the valve fully closes.

...or you could just use this calculator. To get the LSA, you add the intake centerline (max lift degree) to the exhaust centerline and divide by 2. For the TFS1 cam, it's 112 degrees.

Wallace Racing - Cam Degree Calculator

You will be fine at that compression though. You're probably leaving 10-15 hp and tq on the table. To give you an idea, I'm working on a 347 build with a coworker that is 10.6 static compression and 8.4 dynamic compression with iron GT40 heads and flat top pistons and tight .035" quench distance. It'll run great on 91-93 pump gas.

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post #178 of 190 Old January 14th, 2017, 01:52 PM
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I wish there were still more of these threads with knowledgeable people. This is one of two threads I still follow lmao. Keep it up!
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post #179 of 190 Old January 14th, 2017, 05:43 PM
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I ran your engine through PT Engine Analyzer v3.9 and this is what it spit out as a theoretical dyno. This is figuring flywheel hp without drivetrain losses.



Here is your piston-to-valve clearance. The piston and intake valve come closest to each other at approximately 8 degrees ATDC when the intake valve is approximately .125" open and chasing the piston down the bore. They come within .030" of each other but this is assuming there are no valve reliefs present. You have more than adequate valve relief so this is probably of no concern for you.


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post #180 of 190 Old January 15th, 2017, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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I wish there were still more of these threads with knowledgeable people. This is one of two threads I still follow lmao. Keep it up!
I wouldn’t say that I’m all too smart. I’m just a guy that (sort of) knows how to take shit apart and put it back together again lol. That dude @RDY4WAR seems like he’s a helluva lot smarter than I am. That, or he’s an experienced machinist / engine builder of some sort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Quench distance is great.

You can calculate the actual intake valve closing event as long as you know the intake duration and the centerline of the lobe.

Example: TFS1 cam with 275* of intake duration.

On that cam card, they list the centerline as "max lift" which for the intake is at 108* ATDC. Now what you do is you have to calculate how much further the piston has to travel to the bottom of the cylinder and then the remainder is where the valve will seat.

275* / 2 = 137.5*

We're only looking at 137.5* of duration since we're only interested in the back half of the duration at max lift. Considering 180* of rotation ATDC to put the piston at BDC, we have to subtract the max lift degree from this number and then subtract the difference from 137.5.

180 - 108 = 72 degrees

137.5 - 72 = 65.5 degrees

So after the piston reaches the bottom of the cylinder, you know you have 65.5 degrees of rotation to go before the valve fully closes.

...or you could just use this calculator. To get the LSA, you add the intake centerline (max lift degree) to the exhaust centerline and divide by 2. For the TFS1 cam, it's 112 degrees.

Wallace Racing - Cam Degree Calculator

You will be fine at that compression though. You're probably leaving 10-15 hp and tq on the table. To give you an idea, I'm working on a 347 build with a coworker that is 10.6 static compression and 8.4 dynamic compression with iron GT40 heads and flat top pistons and tight .035" quench distance. It'll run great on 91-93 pump gas.
Wow, now I’m starting to feel like I’ve REALLY skimped on the camshaft portion of this engine build. I should’ve had all of this cam math in my head before I even bought any of my engine parts. Back then and even today as I’m typing this, I still can’t completely wrap my head around all the math involved with camshafts. And I’m going to school for mechanical engineering, I should be / should’ve been taking my time to get a grasp on all of this camshaft math, dammit!

I guess I just figured that since I was using Trick Flow heads, that it would be a good idea to use their camshaft as well. Surely they engineer all their parts to work well together, right? If anything though, I probably could’ve stepped up to their stage 2 cam and used some pistons with a smaller head volume.

Oh, speaking of pistons, I’m sure that THIS is why my engine’s compression is on the low-ish side. These pistons I bought for it are technically flat-top with 4 valve reliefs, but those are some pretty big-ass valve reliefs in there (why I was never concerned with piston-to-valve clearance). About 8.00 cc’s IIRC, so it’s more like a dish-type piston instead of a flat-top.



I’m betting that by using an actual flat-top piston, and taking 0.010” off the deck of the block (it’s never been milled, still at 8.206” deck height), my engine’s compression would be about a full point higher than what it is now. Quench would be REALLY tight at 0.031” though.
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