[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by JoshC why are so many people wanting to switch over to it?

I think the reason so many people want to switch over is because they're not educated. They simply go to a gas station and see that gas is $3.50 while E95 is $2.90. Then they think how great it would be to pay $2.90 instead of $3.50.

Just look at the description of the box the OP posted. All it mentions is that you can save money on each tank fill-up. There's no mention that you'll be filling your tank more often because you'll get significantly worse mileage.

When you really look into the true cost, it's not worth it for most people. The only people who really benifit from it are those who are looking for more timing than 93 octane gas can provide.

[mp4 player]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter I can tell you it's dyno-proven that a stock Honda makes power and more torque than a stock Mustang and be telling the truth, but without providing all the rest of the details, it's still nothing but a total bullshit statement.

It was probably done without any tuning or supporting fuel mods.

For anyone that is actually interested in more specifics of E-85 when it comes to power and tuning here's a great read:
E-85 Info

[walt1120]

With a tune e85 will make more power. it has a higher octane and burns cooler.

If you goto a dyno and get any car tuned for 93 octane and then have the same car tuned for E85. it should make more power on the e85 tune. its just common sense

its like arguing that your car wont make any more power tuned for 93 than it would if it were tuned for 87.

As crazy as it sounds ethanol does have better thermal efficiency if used properly. The problem is that all of todays engine are designed to run on gasoline, if we build an engine to just run on e85 it would be more powerful and efficient than a gasoline engine of same displacement.

The higher octane and cooler burning of ethanol can allow an engine to run a much higher compression ratio (especially if direct injection is used.) Dont quote me on this but i wouldnt be surprised if you could run a 14:1 or 15:1 compression with E85. and since it is much less prone to detonation, you could run very high compressions with boosted applications too. imagine what a modern 1.5L motor built for E85 on 12:1 comp and 8psi turbo would do.

You guys better get used to alcohol based fuels now because its definitely where the future is headed. I just wish E85 was more available in NJ. I dont see much progress in corn based ethanol in the near future but soon there will be mixes of biobutanol and biomethanol fuels starting to appear at your local gas station.

[SlowSix]

The problem with e85 is that it isn't cost efficient currently, and probably never will be.
It gets worse gas mileage, and you will be using fossil fuels to produce e85 anyways. Its a no win situation really.

I've also heard e85 will corrode stuff over time.
The only reason people run e85 is like walt said, to make more power. e85 burns like 110 octane. I know a dude with an evo that runs e85.

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by walt1120 With a tune e85 will make more power. it has a higher octane and burns cooler. If you goto a dyno and get any car tuned for 93 octane and then have the same car tuned for E85. it should make more power on the e85 tune. its just common sense its like arguing that your car wont make any more power tuned for 93 than it would if it were tuned for 87. As crazy as it sounds ethanol does have better thermal efficiency if used properly. The problem is that all of todays engine are designed to run on gasoline, if we build an engine to just run on e85 it would be more powerful and efficient than a gasoline engine of same displacement. The higher octane and cooler burning of ethanol can allow an engine to run a much higher compression ratio (especially if direct injection is used.) Dont quote me on this but i wouldnt be surprised if you could run a 14:1 or 15:1 compression with E85. and since it is much less prone to detonation, you could run very high compressions with boosted applications too. imagine what a modern 1.5L motor built for E85 on 12:1 comp and 8psi turbo would do. You guys better get used to alcohol based fuels now because its definitely where the future is headed. I just wish E85 was more available in NJ. I dont see much progress in corn based ethanol in the near future but soon there will be mixes of biobutanol and biomethanol fuels starting to appear at your local gas station.

See part in bold. Define what you mean by efficient. Are you talking thermal efficiency? Or just able to make more power? Also, please provide some scientific reasoning (with numbers) to justify your statement.

I understand E85 does have it's place in certain applications and that it can make more power than gasoline. But making more power does not mean it's more efficient. So I would like to know what number's you've seen that tell you it's more efficient.

[ReverendDexter]

Simple fact, a gallon of E85 contains less energy than a gallon of gasoline.

Gasoline - 125,000 BTUs/gallon
Ethanol - 76,000 BTUs/gallon
E85 - 83,000 BTUs/gallon

[walt1120]

Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom See part in bold. Define what you mean by efficient. Are you talking thermal efficiency? Or just able to make more power? Also, please provide some scientific reasoning (with numbers) to justify your statement. I understand E85 does have it's place in certain applications and that it can make more power than gasoline. But making more power does not mean it's more efficient. So I would like to know what number's you've seen that tell you it's more efficient.

i think it would increase both thermal efficiency and power. For example say you have a 3.5L dohc v6 motor with 10:1 comp and built as a standard gasoline engine. Now take a 2.5L dohc motor with 14:1 comp and built to run solely on E85 and E70 mixes. E85 uses 25-30% fuel than gas right? well id bet that both these engine make roughly the same power due to the higher octane and high compression of the e85 motor. Now even though theyd make the same power, since the 2.5L in naturally going to consume less fuel and the fact that its high comp... so it takes less fuel to make power... the gas mileage of these engine would probably be about the same.

Do you understand what im saying? Since the motor is smaller displacement it will use less fuel and bumping up the compression does not change the amount of fuel an engine uses, it just increase the power. So essentially the high compression you can use because of the high octane of e85 allows for alot more power to be made without using anymore fuel than a lower compression engine.

If you ran E85 on the 3.5L gas motor than no it would just use 30% more fuel and not make more power (only a little more because you could probably advance the timing a bit). but the high octane and the fact that its more reluctant to detonate allows more a much higher compression than a standard gasoline engine...this is where the major power increase will come from. However to my knowledge all current flexfuel vehicles are just standard gas motor that can also run on e85. until someone start releasing a car that only runs on e85, we wont see its full advantages.

[walt1120]

Originally Posted by ReverendDexter Simple fact, a gallon of E85 contains less energy than a gallon of gasoline. Gasoline - 125,000 BTUs/gallon Ethanol - 76,000 BTUs/gallon E85 - 83,000 BTUs/gallon

Diesel Fuel -147,000 BTU/ gallon
Gasohol (10% ethanol, 90% gas...more like what you fill your car up with) - 120,000 BTU/gallon

You have to understand the properties of each fuel. Ethanol burns cooler and has a higher octane. According to your logic, we should just starting converting our cars to diesel

Methanol has a BTU of 60,000/gal but people run meth injection all the time to cool their IAT's and increase the octane of the fuel.

[4U2C]

I was not talkign about converting directly to e85, just being able to have my engine to be able to use it..

FACT: I had a rental care that use e85 as well as regualr fuel. Onmy trip it cost $110 on the way there and the way back i used e85 and my trip cost my around $70 or so.

It does save gas when you get it cheap enough.
I didnt notice any power difference

[mp4 player]

Originally Posted by 4U2C I was not talkign about converting directly to e85, just being able to have my engine to be able to use it.. FACT: I had a rental care that use e85 as well as regualr fuel. Onmy trip it cost $110 on the way there and the way back i used e85 and my trip cost my around $70 or so. It does save gas when you get it cheap enough. I didnt notice any power difference

That seems like a very poor test.

Do you know what it was filled with when you got it? Was the tank completely empty between fill ups? Also what did you leave it with and how many miles were driven?

Something as simple as elevation change or wind going one direction could have the same effects.

[4U2C]

^^ Really, it can have a $40 effect..

[ReverendDexter]

Originally Posted by walt1120 According to your logic, we should just starting converting our cars to diesel

Um, that's exactly where that logic should go, and it holds up.

Look at pickups. At the same power, a diesel pickup gets almost twice the fuel economy. Or you can get the same fuel economy, and twice the power. Remind me just how much torque the new SuperDuty makes? Something like 715 ft-lbs in stock trim?

Look at the Audi R8 diesel. Or their dominating diesel-powered R10 LMS car. Or the most recent Pugeot LMS cars. All diesel-powered cars that curb-stomp equivalent gas-powered vehicles.

Look at the Jetta diesel. With no hybrid BS, it gets Prius-levels of mileage while still making enough torque to not embarass yourself.

We *should* be converting our cars to diesel.

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by walt1120 i think it would increase both thermal efficiency and power. For example say you have a 3.5L dohc v6 motor with 10:1 comp and built as a standard gasoline engine. Now take a 2.5L dohc motor with 14:1 comp and built to run solely on E85 and E70 mixes. E85 uses 25-30% fuel than gas right? well id bet that both these engine make roughly the same power due to the higher octane and high compression of the e85 motor. Now even though theyd make the same power, since the 2.5L in naturally going to consume less fuel and the fact that its high comp... so it takes less fuel to make power... the gas mileage of these engine would probably be about the same. Do you understand what im saying? Since the motor is smaller displacement it will use less fuel and bumping up the compression does not change the amount of fuel an engine uses, it just increase the power. So essentially the high compression you can use because of the high octane of e85 allows for alot more power to be made without using anymore fuel than a lower compression engine. If you ran E85 on the 3.5L gas motor than no it would just use 30% more fuel and not make more power (only a little more because you could probably advance the timing a bit). but the high octane and the fact that its more reluctant to detonate allows more a much higher compression than a standard gasoline engine...this is where the major power increase will come from. However to my knowledge all current flexfuel vehicles are just standard gas motor that can also run on e85. until someone start releasing a car that only runs on e85, we wont see its full advantages.

What you're coming up with is some theoretical STORY with no actual scientific backing. Show me something with real numbers instead of your theoretical story that really isn't about efficiency.

Originally Posted by walt1120 Diesel Fuel -147,000 BTU/ gallon Gasohol (10% ethanol, 90% gas...more like what you fill your car up with) - 120,000 BTU/gallon According to your logic, we should just starting converting our cars to diesel

I think you shot yourself in the foot with this statement and truely showed a lack of knowledge.

You can start by looking at trucks like Rev noted. From there, you can go look at diesel cars (like the Jetta) and compare them to their gas counterparts. You'll notice the diesel vehicles get significantly higher gas mileage. Look at the 2011 Jetta. The gas engine gets 24/34 mpg. The diesel engine gets 30/42 mpg.

Instead of making up theoretical stories, I suggest you start looking at facts.

[walt1120]

...Facepalm

The only reason a diesel makes the power it does is because of the ignition method and the fact that their turbocharged........ Look at the compression of a diesel motor...16:1 up to 22:1. Thats why they make so much power because they ignite(or detonate) off compression. Plus i dare you to take that pretty little turbo off any tdi and see what kinda power it makes. Diesel is also more expensive than gas where i live so theres the same cost vs benefit argument too.


This is a perfect example of how an engine designed for a certain type of fuel is more efficient than one thats not.

Let me ask you guys something, if you really think converting to diesel would make your car go faster then why aren't all high performance cars diesel?

Diesel is great for pulling power and reliability but you just cant spin a diesel motor to the same rpm as you could a gas motor without spending big $$. The power curve also makes the cars need "irregular" gearing.


Dont get me wrong...like i said diesel is great for a pickup trucks needs but it wont make your car faster.

Let me swap a 5.4 4v dohc w/ turbo in my car and you can swap in the 6.7 powerstroke and we'll race. Youll have enough torque to pull a house down but it wont be going anywhere too quickly.

[walt1120]

Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom What you're coming up with is some theoretical STORY with no actual scientific backing. Show me something with real numbers instead of your theoretical story that really isn't about efficiency.

Sorry i dont have any "scientific backing." i just did a huge presentation last semester on this topic and im going to school for this kind of stuff so this is basically all from my head from what ive learned.

[walt1120]

Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom You can start by looking at trucks like Rev noted. From there, you can go look at diesel cars (like the Jetta) and compare them to their gas counterparts. You'll notice the diesel vehicles get significantly higher gas mileage. Look at the 2011 Jetta. The gas engine gets 24/34 mpg. The diesel engine gets 30/42 mpg.

I just looked at that.i saw a 2.0L TDI and a 2.0L gas turbo.

i just picked 2010 model year

2.0L gas turbo
200hp
207tq

21/31mpg


2.0L diesel
140hp
236tq

30/41mpg

Yeah one gets better gas mileage but also makes 60 less hp. It would make a good prius alternative like you said but unless your considering buying a prius then whats the point.

I understand that you can get better mpg with a diesel of same displacement but at a cost of power. id rather get a little worse mpg and have 60 more hp, but thats just me.

I understand where your coming from though adn it would be a good idea to start seeing more diesels on the road. I think we should stop beating eachother up over this crap lol.

[03SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by walt1120 Sorry i dont have any "scientific backing." i just did a huge presentation last semester on this topic and im going to school for this kind of stuff so this is basically all from my head from what ive learned.

If you did a presentation last semester, it should be VERY easy for you to prove your point. The reason I said you don't have any scientific backing is because you didn't use any science or numbers to prove your point. All you did was propose a theoretical story.

An internal combustion engine is an Otto cycle. So you need to start proving efficiency (which IS DIFFERENT than how much power it creates) of an Otto cycle.

[JoshDrex00gt]

I've been going through e85 as an option for a week now. I'm looking to run 18 psi on my new setup, maybe more if I can do so safely. I have twin ford gt pumps, 60# injectors, and upgrading fuel rails as we speak. what else would I have to do besides tell my tuner I want to switch so he can tune it accordingly. It's not all about performance, I'm doing it 85% for performance, 15% for the environment

[xtreme 2]

Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom I don't know where you guys are from, but I've never seen E85 be more expensive than gasoline. I don't have any stations in my town, but a couple weeks ago (in a neighbor town) gas was about $3.60 and E85 was about $3.10. The trade off is that you'll get about 25% worse gas mileage with E85. So if gas is $3.60, in order to break even you would need E85 to be less than $2.70. In order to determine if you're going to save money, you have to determine the cost per mile of gasoline and cost per mile of E85. IMO, the only time to go E85 is if you're running high boost (b/c it's less prone to detonation).

Agreed. Right now here, E85 is about 25 cents cheaper than regular gas. However, it is a trade-off because the fuel mileage is horrible. You will go down to about 190 miles per tank...

[ReverendDexter]