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post #1 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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Motor ?

Well, I figured I should get my motor rebuilt before putting it back in.. (pulled it out 2 years ago to do strut tower/frame repair)..

I have manufactured GT40P head, and GT40 intake, E303 cam, I'm going to put on motor.. Engine ran good, no noises when I drove it hope 2 years ago... but car has 165k on it... so I'm replacing everything else on the car, might as well refresh the shortblock...

Anyway, I called a local machine shop (there also a napa part store) really only machine shop around... any way I plan to pull the existing intake/heads, cam ect in the next 2 weeks then get it over there...

Anyway, when talking to him, I said i was going to get the arp main/rod bolts, but he suggested that I maybe consider getting a set of new eagle rods for a little more money since they come with the better bolts.... Is this true? and if so, what ones would I need f or a 90 5.0 motor, and where would be the best place to buy them for the lowest $$$$...

thanks...

*Update - found these on summit - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/es...view/make/ford Would these be what I need?

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
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post #2 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 03:55 PM
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Do you think forced induction or nitrous may be in your future? If so you may want to go with a H-beam connecting rod. Also, don't cheap out on machining and assembly, good work isn't cheap, cheap work isn't good. Might as well consider an inexpensive forged piston, or a nice rod and piston package. If you are using the factory engine block get a main stud girdle and ARP main studs. A Melling high volume oil pump would also be an excellent idea.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 AM ----------

Here's a complete rotating assembly with forged crank, rods and pistons for under $1500. Don't know what your budget is but.... Scat Engine Rotating Assemblies 1-45005 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

If you are staying NA, bump the compression ratio up to 10:1 or higher depending on what octane fuel is available in your area.



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post #3 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 05:06 PM
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No F'ing way. Your rods will hold more power than your block will handle. H beams in a stock block are even worse because they're heavier. You ever see a stock 302 shortblock break a rod? Nope, because the block splits in half first. Save your money.

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post #4 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 05:15 PM
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Correct. If youre using the Stock block,just get pistons at most and build it. Spray its bag off. It will be fine. Stock rods and cranks are pretty decent
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post #5 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 05:23 PM
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No F'ing way. Your rods will hold more power than your block will handle. H beams in a stock block are even worse because they're heavier. You ever see a stock 302 shortblock break rod? Nope, because the block splits in half first. Save your money.
That's why I suggested a main stud girdle.



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post #6 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 05:24 PM
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All a girdle does is hold the pieces together when the block is in two pieces. Lol

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post #7 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 06:53 PM
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Main stud girdles are useless, and most likely would require the block needing to be align-honed. Because A) studs and B) girdle. If you're concerned about the hardware, get new OEM bolts. Fel-Pro makes some. Do not, for even one second, think you can get some grade 8's at a hardware store. You laugh, but I've seen it.

Unfortunately, you can't just throw rods at a V8. More than likely, the entire rotating assembly would have to be re-balanced. Unless, by some miracle, the H beam rods weighed exactly the same as the stock rods. And that's pretty unlikely.

The replacement ARP rod bolts are a good, and popular, option. They require the big end of the rod to be re-sized, so you'll have a nice fresh housing bore for the bearings.

Both the ARP replacement rod bolts and the rod bolts in the Eagles are probably going to be their 8740 material. The difference is that one is a through-bolt (OEM) and the Eagle is a cap screw. ARP2000's are typically an upgrade option for aftermarket rods, and unnecessary for what you're doing.

Don't get a high volume oil pump unless you plan on going crazy with oil clearances on the bearings. The pressure and volume of the OEM pumps is exactly right for the cushion of oil that the journals like to see when they're turning.

Don't buy any parts until you hear back from the machine shop, especially in regards to the pistons. You may have taper in the cylinders that necessitates going to an oversized piston. That is, I'll admit, a worst-case scenario. Could be that all you need is a fresh hone, new rings, new bearings, etc.
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post #8 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 07:07 PM
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All a girdle does is hold the pieces together when the block is in two pieces. Lol
My roommate's 331 that makes 440 NA and has a 250 shot on it has a stock block with a girdle and it has held up for more than 10 years and at least 100 passes on it.

Probably just lucky, but he's not complaining.



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post #9 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 07:59 PM
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Yeah they're out there. I have some friends with some pretty stout ones too.

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post #10 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 08:33 PM
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My roommate's 331 that makes 440 NA and has a 250 shot on it has a stock block with a girdle and it has held up for more than 10 years and at least 100 passes on it.

Probably just lucky, but he's not complaining.
Yeah, luck is it. We have a customer with a supercharged 331, using a stock block, that puts out right around 700. I don't know how it hasn't blown to pieces yet, but it's still kicking. He doesn't drive it much, so that helps, I guess.

Also, internal balance > external balance.
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post #11 of 21 Old April 15th, 2016, 11:22 PM
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The engine I bought was stock block in a car making 600hp with a blower and nitrous. Half cemented, arp studs and halo girdle. With my luck my turbo will blow it to bits in the first week.

94 GT Vert

<a href="https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/projects/277159-nkauschs-turbo-vert-pic-heavy.html"]https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/projects/277159-nkauschs-turbo-vert-pic-heavy.html">70mm Turbo Build</A>
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post #12 of 21 Old April 18th, 2016, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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I'm not going to do any forced air or anything... the only performance stuff I'm doing to motor, is E303 cam, Re-manufactured GT40P heads, with GT40 Intake, 65MM TB... that's it... I'm not racing/tracking it... not a dalily, just my fun project car (I'm just waiting for the fun part to start :-( ) there will be a little spirtted driving of course :-) but I told my daughter she will get the car when I can not longer drive it or dead... LOL which hopefully that will be a long while.. I hope... but once I put the motor back in, I never want to have to take it back out again... that's the plan...

I do plan on using all ARP bolts for everything... I have a new Stock flow/stock pressure pump already, with a ARP pump drive...

I will talk to the guy at the machine shop more when I take the shortblock over in a couple weeks... but from our phone conversation, I think he menthined getting new rods since they came with ARP hardware already and would keep from machining old ones...

So if I were to keep OEM rods, they would have to be machined for the ARP bolts?

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
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post #13 of 21 Old April 18th, 2016, 10:17 AM
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Yeah they're machining the rod,but its not for the actual bolts,its for the big end of the rod that gets distorted during bolt installation.
If you reuse the stock rods,the stock rod bolts have to be removed,the ARP rod bolts have to be pressed in & the big end of the rod will have to be resized.When the bolts are pressed in,it distorts the rod plus the big end of the rod tends to get "egg shaped" after years of use,so they resize the rod & rod cap so theyre perfectly round again.
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post #14 of 21 Old April 18th, 2016, 10:35 AM
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I'm not sure what kind of budget you're working with here, so I'll give you a quick rundown of what can be done:

You'll have to have the cylinders honed, of course. The machine shop will have to tell you if you can stay standard or if you need to go to an oversize. If you have to go to an oversized piston, select the smallest first oversize so you have plenty of room left to grow. I think Mahle might have a .020" over, and you can have a selection of compression ratios to choose from. A company like SpeedPro might even have .010" overs, but I'm not sure about that.

If you're keeping it mostly stock, you won't need H beam rods. Some regular steel I beams will work, and probably use the ARP 8740 bolts, which for an N/A application, will work just fine. Looking back at your first post, those rods look correct.

If you're going with either ARP main bolts or ARP main studs, this would be a good time to have the block align honed. It might have to be align-honed, regardless, with the new hardware.

With new rods comes a re-balance of the rotating assembly. I know I mentioned that already, but if they don't bring it up, ask. It's not optional if the rod weights are different.

New brass freeze plugs. New cam bearings.

The usual stuff, I guess.
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post #15 of 21 Old April 18th, 2016, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WillyT View Post
I'm not sure what kind of budget you're working with here, so I'll give you a quick rundown of what can be done:

You'll have to have the cylinders honed, of course. The machine shop will have to tell you if you can stay standard or if you need to go to an oversize. If you have to go to an oversized piston, select the smallest first oversize so you have plenty of room left to grow. I think Mahle might have a .020" over, and you can have a selection of compression ratios to choose from. A company like SpeedPro might even have .010" overs, but I'm not sure about that.

If you're keeping it mostly stock, you won't need H beam rods. Some regular steel I beams will work, and probably use the ARP 8740 bolts, which for an N/A application, will work just fine. Looking back at your first post, those rods look correct.

If you're going with either ARP main bolts or ARP main studs, this would be a good time to have the block align honed. It might have to be align-honed, regardless, with the new hardware.

With new rods comes a re-balance of the rotating assembly. I know I mentioned that already, but if they don't bring it up, ask. It's not optional if the rod weights are different.

New brass freeze plugs. New cam bearings.

The usual stuff, I guess.
ok, thanks... I will ask... so that's why he said might be better to get some new eagle rods then...

yeah, I plan on just getting the ARP main bolts...

I would love to get by without boring it, but with 165K on the clock, I'm sure it has to be real close to be out of tolerance... so I will ask what is the least they can bore... (if I can go lower then .30 then that would be great...

also, the link I sent for the rods, I notice now, it's "Bushed" floating wrist pin... then there is another set that is press fit... so which would be correct for the 5.0?

---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------

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Yeah they're machining the rod,but its not for the actual bolts,its for the big end of the rod that gets distorted during bolt installation.
If you reuse the stock rods,the stock rod bolts have to be removed,the ARP rod bolts have to be pressed in & the big end of the rod will have to be resized.When the bolts are pressed in,it distorts the rod plus the big end of the rod tends to get "egg shaped" after years of use,so they resize the rod & rod cap so theyre perfectly round again.
ahhh ok, thanks, that makes a lot more sense now.. lol

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
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post #16 of 21 Old April 18th, 2016, 04:02 PM
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ok, thanks... I will ask... so that's why he said might be better to get some new eagle rods then...

yeah, I plan on just getting the ARP main bolts...

I would love to get by without boring it, but with 165K on the clock, I'm sure it has to be real close to be out of tolerance... so I will ask what is the least they can bore... (if I can go lower then .30 then that would be great...

also, the link I sent for the rods, I notice now, it's "Bushed" floating wrist pin... then there is another set that is press fit... so which would be correct for the 5.0?[COLOR="Silver"]
Good catch! I didn't even think about that, virtually every motor I work on uses bushed rods.

You're going to want Eagle SIR5090FP, Eagle SIR I-Beam Connecting Rods | Eagle

SIR5090FP for press fit
SIR5090FB for bushed

Summit doesn't seem to have the press fit version.
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post #17 of 21 Old April 18th, 2016, 06:48 PM
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Motor ?

Stock rods with 12 pounds of boost,sn95 5.0,these are a couple of the better ones..


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post #18 of 21 Old April 19th, 2016, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Good catch! I didn't even think about that, virtually every motor I work on uses bushed rods.

You're going to want Eagle SIR5090FP, Eagle SIR I-Beam Connecting Rods | Eagle

SIR5090FP for press fit
SIR5090FB for bushed

Summit doesn't seem to have the press fit version.
ok... so, I'm guess probably in my best interest to just buy these instead of having them waste time machining the stock old rods when installing ARP bolts???

So I'm sure the crank will need either ground or polished, has a lot of miles but don't know the condition yet... but in any case they need to balance the crank right... how do they balance the whole assbly with the rods? wasn't sure how that's done...

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
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post #19 of 21 Old April 19th, 2016, 09:10 AM
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It really comes down to price. The new rods vs. getting a new set of ARP bolts and having them re-condition the old rods. It's easier to just get the new rods, that's for sure.

Balancing involves weighing the big end of the rod, pin end of the rod, piston, pin, rings, rod bearings & pin clips (if applicable). You even have to allow for oil weight (usually 4 grams or so). Those weights are calculated and bobweights (usually blocks of aluminum with weight added or removed) are attached to the rod journals. After that, it sort of depends what kind of balancer is used. We have a bounce balancer, most newer machines use a hard bearing balancer. But the crank is spun to a determined RPM and the amount of imbalance is measured in oz.in. The machine tells you where you have to add or remove weight (with the heavier rods, your guy will probably have to add weight) and voilà, you've got yourself a balanced crank.

IMHO, the absolute best way to balance a Ford crank is to intenally balance it. But that can get crazy expensive on a cast crank because of the amount of heavy metal that needs to be added. We have a cast 302 crank in right now that's getting interally balanced, that job is going to easily cost $700-$800 on a $200 crank.
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post #20 of 21 Old April 19th, 2016, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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It really comes down to price. The new rods vs. getting a new set of ARP bolts and having them re-condition the old rods. It's easier to just get the new rods, that's for sure.

Balancing involves weighing the big end of the rod, pin end of the rod, piston, pin, rings, rod bearings & pin clips (if applicable). You even have to allow for oil weight (usually 4 grams or so). Those weights are calculated and bobweights (usually blocks of aluminum with weight added or removed) are attached to the rod journals. After that, it sort of depends what kind of balancer is used. We have a bounce balancer, most newer machines use a hard bearing balancer. But the crank is spun to a determined RPM and the amount of imbalance is measured in oz.in. The machine tells you where you have to add or remove weight (with the heavier rods, your guy will probably have to add weight) and voilà, you've got yourself a balanced crank.

IMHO, the absolute best way to balance a Ford crank is to intenally balance it. But that can get crazy expensive on a cast crank because of the amount of heavy metal that needs to be added. We have a cast 302 crank in right now that's getting interally balanced, that job is going to easily cost $700-$800 on a $200 crank.
hmmm good info... stock there not internally balanced right? that's why the flywheel is (I think 50oz)? which I already have a new FR one ready to go on... with all new clutch stuff...

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
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