ok, need some more advise... - Forums at Modded Mustangs
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old September 18th, 2016, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
ok, need some more advise...

I got my 302 (now 306) back from the machine shop this week... had Mahle forged pistons put in (where on sale from LMR for half off 250. so couldn't pass that up). I gave them ARP rod and main bolts to use, and clevite main,rod, & cam bearings the normal P ones) motor had 165k on it, but surprising the crank only need polishing... the center thrust bearing was really worn and had a lot of end play, but the machine shop said usually it damages the crank when that happens but mine was fine..

So anyway, I'm getting ready to put it back together.... pretty much everything will be new going back on... in fact the only thing I'm cleaning and reusing is the oil pan... I'm using all ARP hardware for everything....(from oil pan to intake)

now here's my issue... this will not be a track/strip car, and will stay NA... just my fun weekend/nice weather raising hell car...

now I have new lifters coming, but I haven't ordered new pushrods or the rockers yet... this is where I'm hung up... I'm using a set of remanufactured GT40P heads I got from LMR, I'm installing the Trick flow spring kit today, I plan to not swap the seals since there new on the heads already and I seen posts about people complaining about the seals that come with the trickflow leaking...

I'm going to be using the Fel-pro 9333PT1 head gaskets... they didn't have to deck my block or anything... but for the heads I have no clue if they were shaved/milled some or what since I bought them already manufactured...

So my issues is will the stock pushrod length's be fine?(if so I will order new ford racing ones) And also I was thinking of the Proform rockers LMR sells, but since seen some posts on the interweb about them being noisy and not the highest quality, so I was thinking I spending a little more (more then I wanted) for some Scorpion rockers.. - these ones - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...rd?prefilter=1

I don't want to change from the pedestal mount and want to stay with the 1.6 stock ratio... oh, I'm using the Ford Racing E303 cam... I also ordered the new polished SVE valve covers LMR sells, they says they clear most RR and clear the intake so I hope they do for this..

So,
1st. - would these rockers be a good choice? assuming I selected the correct ones...
2nd - would the stock pushrod length work?
3rd - anything else I should know,do, missed?

I did see some video's on how you mark the tip of the valve with a dry erase marker and then install rocker and turn engine over twice and see if the roller is riding in the center... so I do plan on clean up one of the old pushrods and doing this test (once I figure out and order the rockers). But I'm thinking the block deck is stock, and I'm using ford heads (I'm assuming the pushrod length was the same for the E7 and GT40P heads? the stock length should be fine, I'm sure it's SOP to mill the heads when this places reman them? but would they change my need push rod length enough to go to the next size, which I'm assuming I would need shorter ones?

4th - would I need to do this pushrod length test with every valve or just one on each head?


oh, and one more strange thing... I haven't ordered a new oil pickup tube yet... (I am) but, LMR sells one listed for 79-95 for 59.99 but on Rockauto they list 2, both from sealed power, but one says "to 8/27/90 for 28.79, and the other from 8/27/90 for 40.99.... ??? so I'm confused they had different tubes and changed on 8/27/90?

think I listed everything... sorry for the long post, but most all the rest of my parts come this week and I really need to get this rocker and pushrod thing figured out so I can move forward...

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old September 18th, 2016, 08:41 AM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Stock pushrods should work fine though I always advice checking for correct length with a pushrod length checker. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-9000/overview/

Valve geometry is very important in any engine. You seem to get the idea with marking the valve tip. With your parts, I wouldn't see why the stock pushrod length wouldn't work.

If the block wasn't zero-decked, those head gaskets are too thick. With those Mahle pistons and stock height block, those gaskets would put the quench distance out at .058-.062". This is borderline detonation territory. I'd confirm the distance the pistons are below deck (most likely .012-.016") and order a set of .030" gaskets in a matching 4.030" bore to get the quench down around .045" or so, which is still a tad too much. The engine will have a little more compression, be more resistant to detonation, run more efficiently (more complete burn), require less spark advance, and be a bit more responsive. What you have now will work but it's not optimum.

Stock deck + .047" gaskets = .058-.062" quench = ~8.9:1 static compression
Stock deck + .030" gaskets = .042-.046" quench = ~9.3:1 static compression, more resistant to detonation
Zero-decked + .039" gaskets = .039" quench = ~9.5:1 static compression, more resistant to detonation and more responsive

As for quench distance goes....

.025-.035" = Very tight, edge of safe range, only use with low rpm engines (less than 6,000rpm)
.035-.045" = Ideal safe quench distance, good turbulence with room for piston expansion at high rpm
.045-.060" = Fair quench distance, less turbulent affect with less benefits, may be prone to carbon buildup in the quench areas
.060" and higher = Very little to no quench, low turbulence affects homogenization making the engine more prone to detonation, response is reduced, efficiency and mpg go down

Ideally, you want the tightest quench distance you can get without the piston making contact with the head at high rpm. I've had it so tight that the part number etched into the piston was creating a slight carbon profile in the quench area of the head. That engine was around .028-.030".

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old September 18th, 2016, 08:50 AM
Newbie
 
Coyote Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Coastal bend of Texas
Posts: 12
 
Garage
iTrader: 0 reviews
Nice reply, the newer coyote motor's have upgraded forged parts and I don't have the coin to buy cams or any of this upgrade, but maybe someday, good luck with you build.
Coyote Red is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 20 Old September 18th, 2016, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Stock pushrods should work fine though I always advice checking for correct length with a pushrod length checker. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-9000/overview/

Valve geometry is very important in any engine. You seem to get the idea with marking the valve tip. With your parts, I wouldn't see why the stock pushrod length wouldn't work.

If the block wasn't zero-decked, those head gaskets are too thick. With those Mahle pistons and stock height block, those gaskets would put the quench distance out at .058-.062". This is borderline detonation territory. I'd confirm the distance the pistons are below deck (most likely .012-.016") and order a set of .030" gaskets in a matching 4.030" bore to get the quench down around .045" or so, which is still a tad too much. The engine will have a little more compression, be more resistant to detonation, run more efficiently (more complete burn), require less spark advance, and be a bit more responsive. What you have now will work but it's not optimum.

Stock deck + .047" gaskets = .058-.062" quench = ~8.9:1 static compression
Stock deck + .030" gaskets = .042-.046" quench = ~9.3:1 static compression, more resistant to detonation
Zero-decked + .039" gaskets = .039" quench = ~9.5:1 static compression, more resistant to detonation and more responsive

As for quench distance goes....

.025-.035" = Very tight, edge of safe range, only use with low rpm engines (less than 6,000rpm)
.035-.045" = Ideal safe quench distance, good turbulence with room for piston expansion at high rpm
.045-.060" = Fair quench distance, less turbulent affect with less benefits, may be prone to carbon buildup in the quench areas
.060" and higher = Very little to no quench, low turbulence affects homogenization making the engine more prone to detonation, response is reduced, efficiency and mpg go down

Ideally, you want the tightest quench distance you can get without the piston making contact with the head at high rpm. I've had it so tight that the part number etched into the piston was creating a slight carbon profile in the quench area of the head. That engine was around .028-.030".

OMG!!! you just blew my mind!!! LOL.... I was going by all the forum post out there about these being really good gaskets.... arrrrggg... what is the compressed thickness of the stock oem ones btw? Also going thinner will I have valve to piston clearance issues? I'm not really finding any Fel-pro in a 4.030 size..

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old September 18th, 2016, 11:28 PM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
You probably won't find any Fel-pro gaskets in a 4.030 bore. Most of those are MLS gaskets, which I prefer anyway. The stock head gaskets are .039-.041".

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old September 19th, 2016, 12:21 AM
mr. chokebot
 
WillyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Shitcago
Posts: 749
   
iTrader: 0 reviews
I've never heard of detonation from too low a compression ratio. Too high, with pump gas, yes. But not low.

Did they recondition the rods with the new ARP bolts?

Regarding surfacing of the heads: are they shiny or dull? The proper way to machine a head and/or block is using a CBN (for iron) cutter at high RPM. Some high-volume rebuild shops cheat and use a wet grinder or sander. Which sort of works, sometimes.

How much crank end play do you have? You don't want too much or too little.

What method are you using to clean the oil pan? Please don't say glass beading....please don't say glass beading....please don't say...etc.

If the block was not decked, skip the MLS gaskets. MLS will not conform to a potentially wave block deck like composite will, it would likely need to be surfaced.

In regards to deck heights, etc. What's the compression height of the pistons? Have you had a chance to measure the deck height yet? In my world (turbo imports) the factory pistons are always below the deck by at least .010" - .015" while the aftermarkets bring the deck heights closer to with .005".
WillyT is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old September 19th, 2016, 06:56 AM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyT View Post
I've never heard of detonation from too low a compression ratio. Too high, with pump gas, yes. But not low.
It's not the compression I'm referring to, it's the quench distance. You can make a 9:1 engine ping like mad due to bad quench. You can also have an 11:1 engine that will run smooth as can be thanks to proper engine blueprinting. Tightening the quench distance will increase compression but will also increase detonation resistance and response. It's very likely the engine will run better and be more octane tolerant at the higher compression in this case simply because the quench is at proper distance.

The factory pistons are 1.608" c/h and on a standard 8.206" deck, puts them .008" down the hole.

(3" stroke / 2) + 5.09" rod + 1.608" c/h = 8.198" - 8.206" d/h = -.008" in the hole

Factory Ford graphite head gaskets are .039-.041" thick giving a factory quench distance of .047-.049" which, while not ideal, is acceptable and allows for sloppy production tolerances. The Mahle pistons he ordered are slightly shorter than factory at 1.600" c/h. Since he didn't have the block decked...

(3" stroke / 2) + 5.09" rod + 1.600" c/h = 8.190" - 8.206" d/h = -.016" in the hole

Mate that .016" in the hole with a thicker .047" head gasket and you get a wide quench distance of .063".

The solution would be to run a thinner .030" gasket to bring that quench distance closer to .046". However, the only gaskets really available at that thickness are MLS which, like you mentioned, isn't a great idea on a used deck due to possible warp.

What I would do is tell the shop, before they deliver the engine, to run the pistons up to TDC and zero deck it to the highest piston. Then use these gaskets.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...view/make/ford

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old September 19th, 2016, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
I already have the engine back.... I will take a measurement on how far the top of piston is down with my digital caliber when I get home.


Yes, they re-did the rod for the ARP bolts...

I will check the heads when I get home as well, they have been sitting in the box since I got them back in dec. is there a way I can measure to see if they are stock height or not?

not sure how I'm cleaning the oil pan yet... no I'm not blasting it... maybe first try some oven off and a sos pad and scrub... to get the worst off.. then maybe some simple green or purple power and more scrubing... then a finale rinse with brake clean.. (if you have some other idea's please let me know) it's really the only thing I have to clean since I'm replacing/install new stuff for everything else..


So no MLS gaskets then... so what would be the next best gasket I could use?

also, would the rockers I listed be good?

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old September 19th, 2016, 09:50 AM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by kendawg73 View Post
I already have the engine back.... I will take a measurement on how far the top of piston is down with my digital caliber when I get home.


Yes, they re-did the rod for the ARP bolts...

I will check the heads when I get home as well, they have been sitting in the box since I got them back in dec. is there a way I can measure to see if they are stock height or not?

not sure how I'm cleaning the oil pan yet... no I'm not blasting it... maybe first try some oven off and a sos pad and scrub... to get the worst off.. then maybe some simple green or purple power and more scrubing... then a finale rinse with brake clean.. (if you have some other idea's please let me know) it's really the only thing I have to clean since I'm replacing/install new stuff for everything else..


So no MLS gaskets then... so what would be the next best gasket I could use?
Fill the pan with denatured alcohol or low grade methanol (either can be found at your local industrial supply) and let it sit for a few hours. It'll eat any buildup right off the pan. Just make sure to use a different bolt than the one you intend to use in the pan because the alcohol will also eat the seal on the pan bolt. I do this same thing when cleaning cylinder heads. Remove any excess caked on mess with a scotchbrite.

The deck on the heads won't matter in regards to quench but will matter in regards to compression. You want to make sure the combustion chambers are +/- 1cc of each other. Go by your local Tractor Supply or equivalent farming/feed supply and pick up a big horse/cattle syringe that'll hold 50-60cc. A smaller 20cc syringe will work, just requires more patience and gives more room for error. Sit the heads upside down and get the mating surface perfectly level. Using the syringe, fill the chambers with water until completely full. Measure how many CCs it takes to fill the chamber. Repeat for each chamber. On the GT40P heads, the chambers could be 59-61cc so be sure. What I like to do is find the biggest chamber and then using a die grinder, remove a very small amount from the roof area of the other chambers, as needed, to bring them up to within .5cc (+/- .25cc) of the biggest chamber. I do this after sanding and polishing the chambers. The theory behind the polishing being that it removes rough casting in the chamber that may become hot spots causing pre-ignition. The jury is still out on whether it's actually effective or not.

If you reuse the same deck, you'd be best suited to a composite or steel core fiber gasket. (Fel-Pro) They'll conform better to inconsistencies in the deck surface. Most machine shops won't bother decking or milling the block or heads if the cross variance is less than .004" which is about factory tolerance. Since the machine shop didn't recommend decking, they probably found the block to still be within tolerance. However, that little of variance can be enough to create sealing issues with a MLS gasket. Also when a block is decked, they'll usually leave a fine crosshatch in the mating surface which allows an MLS gasket to bite into the block and heads to ensure a good seal. A third option would be to have the block O-ringed and run copper gaskets but that's pricey and highly unnecessary at your power level.

When you check the piston depth in the block, push down on the opposite side of the piston to measure the amount of rock the piston has in the bore. Measure the deck clearance from the highest point of the piston when rocked, even if that part of the piston won't land in a quench area.

Another thing that can help is to take a cross buff on a mandrel and make a quick round on every sharp edge on the pistons and combustion chamber just to give a slight roundness to the corners. This will help prevent those corners from absorbing heat and becoming hot spots for pre-ignition. Little things like this is what separates the hobbyist from the enthusiast. Again, not necessary, but one of those "while I'm in there" kind of things. Plus, it only costs just a few bucks for some cross buffs and a little bit of your time.

Has any port matching been done on the intake manifold, heads, and headers?

Another note on the head gaskets is to make sure you install them the right away. They have to go a specific way or else the coolant passages in the back of the block will get blocked by the gasket and cause you lots of headaches with overheating issues. This is a common amateur mistake so keep it in mind.

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily

Last edited by RDY4WAR; September 19th, 2016 at 02:18 PM.
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old September 19th, 2016, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Fill the pan with denatured alcohol or low grade methanol (either can be found at your local industrial supply) and let it sit for a few hours. It'll eat any buildup right off the pan. Just make sure to use a different bolt than the one you intend to use in the pan because the alcohol will also eat the seal on the pan bolt. I do this same thing when cleaning cylinder heads. Remove any excess caked on mess with a scotchbrite.

The deck on the heads won't matter in regards to quench but will matter in regards to compression. You want to make sure the combustion chambers are +/- 1cc of each other. Go by your local Tractor Supply or equivalent farming/feed supply and pick up a big horse/cattle syringe that'll hold 50-60cc. A smaller 20cc syringe will work, just requires more patience and gives more room for error. Sit the heads upside down and get the mating surface perfectly level. Using the syringe, fill the chambers with water until completely full. Measure how many CCs it takes to fill the chamber. Repeat for each chamber. On the GT40P heads, the chambers could be 59-61cc so be sure. What I like to do is find the biggest chamber and then using a die grinder, remove a very small amount from the roof area of the other chambers, as needed, to bring them up to within .5cc (+/- .25cc) of the biggest chamber. I do this after sanding and polishing the chambers. The theory behind the polishing being that it removes rough casting in the chamber that may become hot spots causing pre-ignition. The jury is still out on whether it's actually effective or not.

If you reuse the same deck, you'd be best suited to a steel core fiber gasket. (Fel-Pro) They'll conform better to inconsistencies in the deck surface. Most machine shops won't bother decking or milling the block or heads if the cross variance is less than .004" which is about factory tolerance. Since the machine shop didn't recommend decking, they probably found the block to still be within tolerance. However, that little of variance can be enough to create sealing issues with a MLS gasket. Also when a block is decked, they'll usually leave a fine crosshatch in the mating surface which allows an MLS gasket to bite into the block and heads to ensure a good seal. A third option would be to have the block O-ringed and run copper gaskets but that's pricey and highly unnecessary at your power level.

When you check the piston depth in the block, push down on the opposite side of the piston to measure the amount of rock the piston has in the bore. Measure the deck clearance from the highest point of the piston when rocked, even if that part of the piston won't land in a quench area.

Another thing that can help is to take a cross buff on a mandrel and make a quick round on every sharp edge on the pistons and combustion chamber just to give a slight roundness to the corners. This will help prevent those corners from absorbing heat and becoming hot spots for pre-ignition. Little things like this is what separates the hobbyist from the enthusiast. Again, not necessary, but one of those "while I'm in there" kind of things. Plus, it only costs just a few bucks for some cross buffs and a little bit of your time.

Has any port matching been done on the intake manifold, heads, and headers?

Another note on the head gaskets is to make sure you install them the right away. They have to go a specific way or else the coolant passages in the back of the block will get blocked by the gasket and cause you lots of headaches with overheating issues. This is a common amateur mistake so keep it in mind.

hmmm didn't know denatured alcohol would eat that crap up... cool I'll pick up a gal or 2 and fill it up... I already have new drain plugs for it... hmmm of course a new oil pan from LMR is 65.00, not sure what 2 gal of denatured alcohol cost yet, but I wonder if it would just be worth it to get a new pan.... lol

So at this point getting it deck now isn't going to happen, he did say it wasn't need that mine was fine, but I didn't know about the whole quench thing....
So being that I have to stick with the SCFG, then the 9333PT's I'm will have to use right?

I will measure the deck when I get home and reply back..

no, no port matching...

I have heard about the gaskets going on the right way.... but until they show up (wed) I will get to see... and know the will say front... but one would have to go upside down? or do I have that wrong?


wow, I wasn't expecting to run into that sort of issue... I was just looking for the car to run as good as it did when new with just a little more power then stock...

so if the pistons do end up sitting down that far and I'm stuck with the 9333pt gaskets, how bad is it going to be? would I not be able to advance the timing as much.. which I think 10 degree BTC is the standard setting everyone is using if I remember reading right? would I need to use higher octane gas instead of regular?

I think you said the stock gaskets were .039-.041, but I don't seem to be finding that size in a non-mls gasket... because if I was at least able to get those, then I would pretty much be the same as it was from the factory, except for the pistons being a little I think you said .008 then stock, which wouldn't be that different right?


**Update** now I'm really confused, according to this, the 9333PT-1 is a MLS gasket??? below was the description on the rocauto site for the 9333pt-1
Fel-Pro® PermaTorque® MLS (multi-layer steel) head gaskets provide torque retention and extra strength to support lightweight aluminum casting designs.Developed to seal in the repair environment, under these less than factory-perfect conditions, these MLS gaskets have many unique features that are more forgiving than other designs and accommodate surface irregularities up to 60 Ra (360 Rz).

Features include:

Full-hard stainless steel that maintains its shape despite thermal expansion, and resists the scrubbing action between head and block
Precision-engineered
An exclusive extra-strong "stopper" layer incorporated to provide a superior primary combustion seal
Special rubber coating, specifically formulated for the engine rebuild environment, is more forgiving of surface finish requirements



***Update 2****

ok, I tried to measure these but trying to keep it strait.. also I don't have a dial indicator so I had to feel and eyeball that it piston stopped moving... but man it looks almost to the top to me...
any way I was getting from .022 to .025 but got .023 most of the time... I tried to rock piston but didn't see any change.. but might not of even done it right... here are a few pics...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0466.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	23.5 KB
ID:	187850   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0467.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	25.0 KB
ID:	187858   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0465.jpg
Views:	32
Size:	22.5 KB
ID:	187866  

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback

Last edited by kendawg73; September 19th, 2016 at 06:03 PM.
kendawg73 is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old September 19th, 2016, 10:14 PM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Sorry, I'm gonna try to reply as best I can. My pain meds have kicked in so I'm not all here.

The Fel-Pro 9333PT1 gaskets are composite gaskets.

If the pistons truly are .022-.025" down the hole, that's not good. That's knocking on .070" quench distance which is ripe detonation territory. However, the compression would likely be low enough ~8.7:1 that detonation may not be an issue anyway. The engine will still suffer from weak response and poor efficiency however. A lot of the improvements you've made over stock will be negated by the poor quench. Unfortunately, the only resolution to this issue is to deck the block.

For the .039-.041" gaskets, you'll have to look at the 4.100" bore and steel core laminate material like the gasket I linked above.

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old September 20th, 2016, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Sorry, I'm gonna try to reply as best I can. My pain meds have kicked in so I'm not all here.

The Fel-Pro 9333PT1 gaskets are composite gaskets.

If the pistons truly are .022-.025" down the hole, that's not good. That's knocking on .070" quench distance which is ripe detonation territory. However, the compression would likely be low enough ~8.7:1 that detonation may not be an issue anyway. The engine will still suffer from weak response and poor efficiency however. A lot of the improvements you've made over stock will be negated by the poor quench. Unfortunately, the only resolution to this issue is to deck the block.

For the .039-.041" gaskets, you'll have to look at the 4.100" bore and steel core laminate material like the gasket I linked above.

well, found out my digital caliper isn't the greatest... if I measure depth on a flat surface, where that rod is flush with the bottom I was still showing .008 in and then If I close the jaws the rest of the way by hand it will 0 back out... so I guess I'm going to have to try the flat edge and feeler gauge method.


the fel-1011-2 gasket that you listed - is that going to seal as good? If read a lot of post when google the gaskets and the 9333 was favored of that one... do to them falling, but I believe most were boosted.... and I think the 1011-2 were more for the alum heads, so would they be good for the iron ones?

oh and in the description there calling this out for High performance use only, not sure why that is... - For High Performance Engines only; Exc. Boss; Steel core laminate; Pre-flattened copper wire combustion seal; Bore 4.100; Thickness .039; Volume 8.5; No brinelling of aluminum heads

I also notice all the replacement gaskets from the parts stores like autozone/advance list a felpro 8548PT-2, a victor 3428sg, but they all seem to be .047 compressed as the 9333PT-1 is... so I think you said the stock size was .039-.040 so in this case anyone replacing a head gasket on there stock motor there going to gain .007-.008 in there quench, which is what these pistons are doing to me @ a .008 size deference? so if I use a .039 gasket then I would end up in the same zone as someone that used one of the replacement gaskets on there stock motor... if I'm understanding this stuff right? :-)

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback

Last edited by kendawg73; September 20th, 2016 at 07:21 AM.
kendawg73 is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old September 20th, 2016, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyT View Post
I've never heard of detonation from too low a compression ratio. Too high, with pump gas, yes. But not low.

Did they recondition the rods with the new ARP bolts?

Regarding surfacing of the heads: are they shiny or dull? The proper way to machine a head and/or block is using a CBN (for iron) cutter at high RPM. Some high-volume rebuild shops cheat and use a wet grinder or sander. Which sort of works, sometimes.

How much crank end play do you have? You don't want too much or too little.

What method are you using to clean the oil pan? Please don't say glass beading....please don't say glass beading....please don't say...etc.

If the block was not decked, skip the MLS gaskets. MLS will not conform to a potentially wave block deck like composite will, it would likely need to be surfaced.

In regards to deck heights, etc. What's the compression height of the pistons? Have you had a chance to measure the deck height yet? In my world (turbo imports) the factory pistons are always below the deck by at least .010" - .015" while the aftermarkets bring the deck heights closer to with .005".
I unwrapped one of the heads, the matting surface looks shinny to me... attached is a picture... is there a way to measure to see how much was cut off? like can you use a digital caliber and measure from the matting surface to somewhere on the upper side of the head? anybody know what the stock size was?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	headsurface.jpg
Views:	32
Size:	40.9 KB
ID:	187914  

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old September 20th, 2016, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Ok, I just tried with feeler guage and straight edge... what I thought was #1 (right front looking and front of block) was really #5 , so with that seems like .017 - .018 if I'm doing right... and since it looked like # 3 was up, I checked that... .015-.016.

so really looks like my only choice is to run that 1011-2 gasket, with the .039 compressed thickness, that one has a pre-flattened copper ring, didn't seem to get the best reviews... that will work for iron gt40p heads right? which is going to put me in the .055+ ballpark.... the lower end was assembled at the shop, I hate to think what it would cost to take back and have them removed and deck and re-assembly again... plus I guess the rod and main bearings would have to be replaced again?

man this sucks... I'm so sick of the thing right now, I feel like taking everything and dropping in the ocean... :-(

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old September 21st, 2016, 10:54 AM
mr. chokebot
 
WillyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Shitcago
Posts: 749
   
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by kendawg73 View Post
I unwrapped one of the heads, the matting surface looks shinny to me... attached is a picture... is there a way to measure to see how much was cut off? like can you use a digital caliber and measure from the matting surface to somewhere on the upper side of the head? anybody know what the stock size was?
Yep, that looks like it was surfaced.

I don't know if there's an available number, really. In my world (again, turbo imports) most of the manufacturers actually have dimensions in the factory service manual, and they state the maximum you can take off (we occasionally go past this number for heavily ported/modified heads, thicker head gaskets make up for the missing material. Most guys will just measure the chamber volume and work from there.

I'm still of the opinion that the 9333 gasket will work just fine. It's the most recommended gasket on Corral.
WillyT is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old September 21st, 2016, 01:15 PM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Most of those guys zero deck their blocks too. Using the 9333pt1 gasket puts them back to factory quench spec.

The engine will be okay with those gaskets. They are not ideal but they will work since the compression is so low. I've run the 1011-1 on iron heads and 1011-2 on aluminum heads. I actually linked you the wrong ones. It's the 1011-1 you want with iron heads. The biggest issue with these gaskets comes with aluminum heads due to the different expansion rates of iron vs aluminum. The steel rings in the 1011-1 gaskets can gall the aluminum.

Turbo engines are apples to oranges with N/A engines. Quench is your enemy in a boosted engine because when you force the mixture into the cylinder under pressure, you achieve quench. Having heavy quench areas in the chamber is redundant and only serves to narrow your tuning window. With the Duratec I built for my Focus, the pistons were .160" in the hole with a .018" head gasket for a total of .178" quench distance. The quench areas of the head were cut out and blended to the pent roof chamber (see "chamber softening") to eliminate all of the quench area. I never got to see it run though because I sold the car before installing it.

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old September 21st, 2016, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Most of those guys zero deck their blocks too. Using the 9333pt1 gasket puts them back to factory quench spec.

The engine will be okay with those gaskets. They are not ideal but they will work since the compression is so low. I've run the 1011-1 on iron heads and 1011-2 on aluminum heads. I actually linked you the wrong ones. It's the 1011-1 you want with iron heads. The biggest issue with these gaskets comes with aluminum heads due to the different expansion rates of iron vs aluminum. The steel rings in the 1011-1 gaskets can gall the aluminum.

Turbo engines are apples to oranges with N/A engines. Quench is your enemy in a boosted engine because when you force the mixture into the cylinder under pressure, you achieve quench. Having heavy quench areas in the chamber is redundant and only serves to narrow your tuning window. With the Duratec I built for my Focus, the pistons were .160" in the hole with a .018" head gasket for a total of .178" quench distance. The quench areas of the head were cut out and blended to the pent roof chamber (see "chamber softening") to eliminate all of the quench area. I never got to see it run though because I sold the car before installing it.
hmmm, so the 1011-1 are a .041 so now i'm up .02... any only saving .06 from the 9333 (.047 ) gaskets

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old September 21st, 2016, 01:55 PM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by kendawg73 View Post
hmmm, so the 1011-1 are a .041 so now i'm up .02... any only saving .06 from the 9333 (.047 ) gaskets
Which is why I'm saying just run the 9333s since you already have them and won't be saving that much. I doubt you'd feel a big difference between .062" and .056" quench. If you were going to zero deck and put the quench at .039-.041", it would be way more noticeable. Sorry for the run around. I was hoping you hadn't picked up the engine from the shop yet.

I'm rebuilding the 289 in my '66 as well. It's getting zero-decked and running a .030" MLS gasket for .030-.032" quench distance, flat top pistons with 2 small reliefs, DIY ported 289 heads port-matched to an RPM airgap intake manifold and Tri-Y headers, and a Lunati Voodoo 262/268 cam. It'll be around ~10.5 static compression. (~8.7 dynamic) Should be very response, pull strong from 3500-5500rpm, and run efficiently on 91-93 pump gas. I don't plan to spin it past 6k and it'll spend 90% of its life cruising down the highway at 2800-3k rpm, hence why I'm running the quench distance so tight. It's also to get some compression out of the short stroked 289.

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old September 21st, 2016, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
kendawg73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bridgeton, NJ
Posts: 307
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Which is why I'm saying just run the 9333s since you already have them and won't be saving that much. I doubt you'd feel a big difference between .062" and .056" quench. If you were going to zero deck and put the quench at .039-.041", it would be way more noticeable. Sorry for the run around. I was hoping you hadn't picked up the engine from the shop yet.

I'm rebuilding the 289 in my '66 as well. It's getting zero-decked and running a .030" MLS gasket for .030-.032" quench distance, flat top pistons with 2 small reliefs, DIY ported 289 heads port-matched to an RPM airgap intake manifold and Tri-Y headers, and a Lunati Voodoo 262/268 cam. It'll be around ~10.5 static compression. (~8.7 dynamic) Should be very response, pull strong from 3500-5500rpm, and run efficiently on 91-93 pump gas. I don't plan to spin it past 6k and it'll spend 90% of its life cruising down the highway at 2800-3k rpm, hence why I'm running the quench distance so tight. It's also to get some compression out of the short stroked 289.
yeah, I will be using the 9333, they just seem like a really soild gasket from all that I have read... and that even people with boost using them... and I'm hoping to never have to pull the heads on this thing in my life time... so I want something that will last...

but I did learn something... never heard of quench... but been reading up the last few days driving myself nuts... but this is the last engine I will be re-doing anyway...

so anyway... the gaskets came today... I unboxed them.. and 1 of them, it looks like the cardboard backer got bent.... so not sure weather to file complaint with rokauto and have them replace or not... it looks like it only bent the 2 ears on the gaskets... not sure if this would mean anything or not, but what do you guy's thinks, I have attached pic's...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0468.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	26.2 KB
ID:	187946   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0469.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	25.0 KB
ID:	187954  

1990 Mustang GT 5.0 5sp Hatchback
kendawg73 is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old September 21st, 2016, 04:12 PM
Rent Asunder!
 
RDY4WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga
Posts: 11,806
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by kendawg73 View Post
yeah, I will be using the 9333, they just seem like a really soild gasket from all that I have read... and that even people with boost using them... and I'm hoping to never have to pull the heads on this thing in my life time... so I want something that will last...

but I did learn something... never heard of quench... but been reading up the last few days driving myself nuts... but this is the last engine I will be re-doing anyway...

so anyway... the gaskets came today... I unboxed them.. and 1 of them, it looks like the cardboard backer got bent.... so not sure weather to file complaint with rokauto and have them replace or not... it looks like it only bent the 2 ears on the gaskets... not sure if this would mean anything or not, but what do you guy's thinks, I have attached pic's...
I wouldn't lose any sleep over the slight bending. They're fiber gaskets. I doubt it'll be an issue once the heads are torque'd down.

Engine building really is a science to itself. There's "good enough" and then there's optimized. The less thought about things like quench distance, valve angle, valve seat angle (single, 3-angle, 5-angle, etc...), backcutting valves, blended ports, chamber polishing, hot spot elimination, port matching, piston-to-wall clearance, ring gap, ring thickness, oil ring tension, bearing clearances, windage, assembly weight, oil temperature, properly cleaning coolant and oil passages, valvetrain geometry, valve lash (with solid cams and lifters), oil viscosity, trans fluid temperatures (in automatics), and the many wonderful things about cam profiling that can mean the difference between an engine that just runs okay and one that pulls ahead of the rest and does so with more efficiency, less spark advance, and lower octane requirement.

---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

I'm bored, meds are kicked in, and I'm in a perfectionist hypomanic state at the moment so I'm going to do a brain dump. Enjoy it if you will. I just feel like letting it rip.

Only about 35% of the energy potential of the fuel burnt in the cylinder gets converted to rotational energy at the crankshaft. This is in part due to thermal losses to cooling of the engine and frictional losses in the engine, but a lot of it is because of poor fuel efficiency. This is caused by a number of things to include, but not limited to, poor compression, poor air/fuel homogenization, poor chamber design, cylinder fill dilution (residual exhaust still in the cylinder after the exhaust valve has closed), and wrong spark timing.

Contrary to popular belief, more spark advance is not a good thing. If you're having to advance the spark timing in order to pick up power, it means you're losing combustion efficiency. The ideal spark advance is 0 degrees. However, this is virtually impossible with current technology. The goal is to achieve peak cylinder pressure at 15-20*F after top dead center as this is when the piston/rod angle achieves the best leverage on the crankshaft. If the pressure peaks too soon, the piston can't get out of the way of the pressure surge and it causes piston rock/jarring in the bore and detonation, along with power loss. Peak too late and you give up power and response. In order to achieve this ideal peak pressure zone, we have to advance the spark and ignite the air/fuel mixture prior to the piston reaching top dead center to get the mixture burning. Modern, more efficient chamber designs like the pent roof chamber found in modern 4v DOHC engines are much more compact and efficient at burning the mixture, therefore burn the mixture faster, and require less spark advance to achieve the ideal pressure peak zone. When the spark ignites while the piston is still moving up the bore toward top dead center, excess pressure is created while the mixture is starting to burn. This excess pressure is working negatively against the engine's rotation robbing it of power and throwing away thermal efficiency. The more advanced the spark, the greater this effect, however the peak pressure zone advantage outweighs the negative effects. Hence why it's acceptable. It's not optimal, just acceptable.

A good example of this is your GT40P heads actually. They have a slightly more compact chamber (59-61cc) compared to standard GT40 and E7, E5, etc... heads found on the SBF engines. The spark plug is more conveniently angled toward the center of the chamber which allows the combustion pressure to expand away from the plug in a more even fashion. This is why the GT40P heads only require 28-32* max advance vs the typical 34-36* advance of other conventional SBF heads. A small change but every little bit helps.

The term quench is actually a bit misleading here it doesn't really "quench" anything like you would quench your thirst or quench a flame. It's quenching the air with fuel... or quenching the fuel with air... whichever. The process behind the term quench in this case is referring to the turbulent homogenization of air and fuel in the chamber. The quench distance is the distance from the top of the piston to the bottom of the cylinder head, including the head gasket thickness and deck height clearance. This is sometimes called the squish band. The purpose of tight quench distance is force the air/fuel in these areas of the cylinder inward toward the center of the chamber. This does a number of things. It creates a lot of turbulence which mixes the fuel into the air well allowing for a more even burn upon combustion. The air rushing across the top of the piston toward the chamber cools the piston a decent bit which is always beneficial. It keeps carbon from building up (as easily) in these areas as well. Anything tighter than about .045" quench distance will easily achieve this. From .045" to .060" is the gray area where some quench is achieved but not as well as it could be. Wider than .060" means very little to no quench achieved and instead just leaves pockets of air/fuel on the quench pads that can pre-ignite. This hostile range runs up to around .150" distance. Wider than .150" becomes safe again from detonation but without the response and efficiency that comes with proper quench. A lot of turbo engines run in the .150-.200" range to open the tuning window since air/fuel homogenization is already achieved with boost.

Tight quench, proper plug and plug location, and spark timing are all critical to getting most of the fuel that's being burned. You won't be doing much good to introduce more air and fuel to the cylinders when you already can't efficiently burn the air and fuel that's there.

Anything else you want to know or discuss, just ask. I love talking about this sort of stuff and could do it all day.

1993 Camaro bracket car
2002 Tahoe family/tow rig
2006 Altima daily
RDY4WAR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Forums at Modded Mustangs forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome