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post #1 of 22 Old April 3rd, 2017, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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should cam be installed 0 or advance?

I put my cam in the other day and now I'm secound guessing... I have the E303 cam and the Ford rading timing chain set, I belive I can have 9 different degree settings... starts at 0, then , 2 degree, 4, ect...

I installed it straight up 0 (dot to dot).

this is just going to be a weekend street car...
302 motor bored .030 over, ford raching forged pistions.
e303 cam
gt40P heads, trickflow upgrade spring kit
Scorpion 1.6 Roller rockers.
exploer intake,
going to get a 65mm TB
explorer 19lb injectors.
Ford racing shortty headers,
x-pipe with 2 cats
will be swapping the stock 2.73 gears for 3.73 once I get it on the road.

so should I leave the cam at 0, or should I go 2 degree advance?

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post #2 of 22 Old April 4th, 2017, 09:32 AM
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post #3 of 22 Old April 4th, 2017, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyT View Post
well....depends. Do you want more bottom end? COMP Cams® - Sorry...

wow, that just made my head hurt worse.... Well sounds like from what I read, this cam causes you to lose a little on the low end? (maybe it wasn't the best cam choice, but too late now) so soudns like I would, but then if I do sounds like advancing could cause intake valve clearance issues? Really at the end of the day, I would just be happy if this runs better/little more power then it did when new/stock. (maybe just 2dgree advance)?


also, I'm confused about how that even works... so right now I have it striaght up, the lower gear is install with the 0 on the keyway... so say I wanted to go 2 degree advance, so then I have to pull the lower gear and put the 2A on the keyway.... so here is where I'm confused... how do you then align it? if I allign the 2a (keyway) to the dot on the top gear, then it would be the same... the keyway is still in the same spot, not matter what's written on the spot above the keyway... so my understanding is, I would still align the 0 on the lower to the dot right? which no the keyway (crank) is advanced from where it was before???

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post #4 of 22 Old April 4th, 2017, 09:47 PM
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IIRC, the FRPP letter cams come with 5 degrees of advance ground into them so setting it at 0 would actually be 5 degrees advanced. Do you have the cam card that came with it?

You degree'd the cam with a degree wheel, right?

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Last edited by RDY4WAR; April 4th, 2017 at 11:16 PM.
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post #5 of 22 Old April 5th, 2017, 10:46 PM
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You need to degree the cam to do it properly. If you don't degree it, just pick one, because it doesn't matter......so to speak.

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I'll toss that dude's salad

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post #6 of 22 Old April 6th, 2017, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
IIRC, the FRPP letter cams come with 5 degrees of advance ground into them so setting it at 0 would actually be 5 degrees advanced. Do you have the cam card that came with it?

You degree'd the cam with a degree wheel, right?

Don't have one... been spending days worring reading about this stuff... arrggg guess I'm going to have to buy one now... of course I will never use it again!!!!! (I'm not doing this again)... so will this work???
JEGS Performance Products 81622: Precision Cam Degree Wheel 11" | JEGS

Guess I'm also going to need a dial indicator will this do? 1" Travel Machinist's Dial Indicator and the base - Multipositional Magnetic Base with Fine Adjustment

So my understanding... with the cam set dot to dot (0) I would put a lifter in for the intake and position the dial indicator so it's touching the edge of the lifter (not center since that would give) and turn the crank until it hit's .050 and I should be at 0 degree on the degree wheel if the cam and timing set are correct? (which from what I gather will not be the case, it could be +/-. but then I will know... btw I'm using the ford racing 9 keyway timing set..

2. do I need to do the exhaust also?
3. do I have to do this for each cyl?
4. Ford racing tech when I called said there is no advance ground in the E303 cam, and to install dot to dot, but search it seams the I would want to put it 4 degree advance to get some of the low end back.. (I'm thinking of splitting the diff and just put it on 2 degree advance) but that is all dependent of what I'm already getting with it on 0 right? (on how much it's off)

then... if I do advance now I need to check the P to V clearance... once I figure out cam and set it where I want for 2 degree, so I need to get sum play dough... and then bolt and torque down one of the heads, using my new 9333 gasket... and turn the motor over 4 times.. and take back apart and use my digital caliper to check it.... so then I will have to replace that new gasket for when I put motor together.....

is this all correct?


Also once more thing, this guy at work that is rebuilding his twin 502 for hit boat... said that if I put it on the 2A on the timing set, it really 10dgree... he's saying since there is 360 degree's in the crank... ect... so he's really confusing the hell out of me... can someone explain that...

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post #7 of 22 Old April 6th, 2017, 10:22 PM
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The FRPP tech is correct. The E cam is the only one of the letter cams that doesn't have any advance ground into it. My memory served me wrong. With your low compression, I'd want it advanced 4-5 degrees.

This is the procedure I use: How to Degree A Cam - Lunati Power

You should make it a habit to always check PTV and install the cam with a degree wheel. Even if it's a stock rebuild with all stock parts. Manufacturers aren't perfect and do get things wrong from time to time. Never trust that all of your parts are machined accurately. Double check everything.

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post #8 of 22 Old April 7th, 2017, 01:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
The FRPP tech is correct. The E cam is the only one of the letter cams that doesn't have any advance ground into it. My memory served me wrong. With your low compression, I'd want it advanced 4-5 degrees.

This is the procedure I use: How to Degree A Cam - Lunati Power

You should make it a habit to always check PTV and install the cam with a degree wheel. Even if it's a stock rebuild with all stock parts. Manufacturers aren't perfect and do get things wrong from time to time. Never trust that all of your parts are machined accurately. Double check everything.
so will the degree wheel I listed from Jegs will work fine for what I need?

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post #9 of 22 Old April 7th, 2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kendawg73 View Post
so will the degree wheel I listed from Jegs will work fine for what I need?
Yes, it'll work fine. I use a cheap Summit brand one. Sorry, I meant to mention that in my last post.

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post #10 of 22 Old April 7th, 2017, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDY4WAR View Post
Yes, it'll work fine. I use a cheap Summit brand one. Sorry, I meant to mention that in my last post.
thanks, I ordered that this morning along with a TDC stop that bolts to the head (was going to make one, but they had one for 12.xx so why not)... i'm stopping at HF today to get the dail gauge and magntic stand.... and told the old lady to get me some playdough when she goes shopping today... lol.... so I just have to wait for the wheel to get here next week... then I can put this to rest and get motor together....

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post #11 of 22 Old April 9th, 2017, 01:26 PM
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This was something I ran across on another site.

""" A problem can occur,during a cams overlap period when both valves are open around .100",if you dont have adequate ptv clearance when running a timing set in the advanced or retarded position.
Advancing the cam opens the intake valve earlier and the opening intake valve might contact the rising piston....
Retarding the cam retards the exhaust valve closing and the rising piston might smack it closed....
Thats one reason why the cam must be degreed and ptv clearance checked.
Advancing=increases low end torque
Retarding=increases upper end hp """

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post #12 of 22 Old April 10th, 2017, 07:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrockstar View Post
This was something I ran across on another site.

""" A problem can occur,during a cams overlap period when both valves are open around .100",if you dont have adequate ptv clearance when running a timing set in the advanced or retarded position.
Advancing the cam opens the intake valve earlier and the opening intake valve might contact the rising piston....
Retarding the cam retards the exhaust valve closing and the rising piston might smack it closed....
Thats one reason why the cam must be degreed and ptv clearance checked.
Advancing=increases low end torque
Retarding=increases upper end hp """
thanks..

I turned 2 of my old roller lifters into soild ones yesterday so I will be ready when the degree wheel gets here... I found on the interweb where you can take it part and filp the inside around (instead of using washer ect), but when I did this... it made it just a tad taller, couldn't get the clip/retainer in.... so didn't trust that... so I put it back the way it was, and then busted out my mig, and hit it with the welder.... so now they should stay to the top....


And looks like my degree wheel and TDC pistion stop will be deliveverd today....

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post #13 of 22 Old April 10th, 2017, 11:56 PM
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Best of luck

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post #14 of 22 Old April 11th, 2017, 07:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrockstar View Post
Best of luck
Well of course, it didn't go as planned.... I got TDC set, but the TDC stop I got from JEGs, well it needed the holes for the bolts to be lengthend... which I can't belive... the damn thing dosen't fit one of the most populare motors out there... so after I ground a little on both ends with my dremal, I was able to bolt it down... arrrgg...

Then I spend the next frew hours trying to get my dail indecator setup... with no luck... the magnetec stand just sucks.... so looks like I can get in a location that might work, but the indecatore is 1-or 2 to short to reach the lifter... so I'm going to have to take another one of my old lifters and weld a bolt on top of it to add some length I belive so I can rest the point of the dial indecator on.... so round 2 when I get home from work....


btw - I've printed out 3 different driections I found to degree the cam, and watched a couple videos.... but still not 100%...
so I need to zero the dail indecator when on the base lobe... isn't that when pistion is TDC like it is now? or do I still need to turn the crank (clockwise) more? and if that's the case do I stop when the needle stops moving then zero... then I keep going to I get to .50 and then take reading... then I need to get the close side, so do I then back it up (counter clock wise) to zero, then keep going till I hit .50, then go just a little more (since I need to take messurement while it's going clockwsie), and then go forward to .50 and take that mesurement? Do I have this correct? (and both should equal what's on the card) which in this case is - 0 degree BTDC and 40 degree ABDC.... and then what ever that is I need to make it 4 degree BTDC, then my ABDC shoud be 36 degree to advance the cam 4 degree's (picture of cam card attached).
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post #15 of 22 Old April 11th, 2017, 10:35 AM
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Unfortunately Im not good with a degree wheel.
You might wanna try shooting a pm to NXCoupe.He might be able to guide you through a step by step process to get things right?? Woody or Joel 5.0 @ SBF TECH would be another source for your questions.
Yeah youre correct,the lifter will be on the cam's base circle (part of the cam that doesnt create lift) when the piston is at tdc.

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post #16 of 22 Old April 12th, 2017, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Ok if I did this right (god I hope I did) I have my came set a CH over 3 degree's advance.....

Ok first pic is what I got with it install dot to dot... looks like it's just a cu over 1 degree... my cam card (look in previous post and pic of cam card is there) I should be at 0 degree at .50, so then I turned the crank counter clock wise back to 0 (TDC), then continued to go counter clock wise until I hit .50 on the back side.. then I went a little past, and rolled it back clockwise and stopped at .50... and I got 39 degree, my cam card says it should be 40 degree... so looks like cam was 1 degree advance.

So now I pulled the timing set, and set it on 2A, and then re-did my TDC and then set it all back up... did the same steps... so now I'm showing a CH or 2 (looks like almost 3 1/2 degree advance, and on the back side I'm showing about 37 degree... so if I'm right I'm almost at 4 degree ????
(didn't want to go over so that's why I only put it on the 2A and not the 4A.

Now I also checked the exhaust this time... got just about 44 degree (cam card for dot to dot is 40) and on the back side 4, which dot to dot should be 0... so to me that confirms I'm just about 4 degree advance....

So, am I right? or did I screw this up? I will wait for reply/conformation before I move on to checking piston/valve clearance.

And should I still try to set it on the 4A keyway? which will put me over 4 degree I'm sure....
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Last edited by kendawg73; April 13th, 2017 at 08:29 AM.
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post #17 of 22 Old April 12th, 2017, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Ok if I did this right (god I hope I did) I have my came set a CH over 3 degree's advance.....

Ok first pic is what I got with it install dot to dot... looks like it's just a cu over 1 degree... my cam card (look in previous post and pic of cam card is there) I should be at 0 degree at .50, so then I turned the crank counter clock wise back to 0 (TDC), then continued to go counter clock wise until I hit .50 on the back side.. then I went a little past, and rolled it back clockwise and stopped at .50... and I got 39 degree, my cam card says it should be 40 degree... so looks like cam was 1 degree advance.

So now I pulled the timing set, and set it on 2A, and then re-did my TDC and then set it all back up... did the same steps... so now I'm showing a CH or 2 (looks like almost 3 1/2 degree advance, and on the back side I'm showing about 37 degree... so if I'm right I'm almost at 4 degree ????
(didn't want to go over so that's why I only put it on the 2A and not the 4A.

Now I also checked the exhaust this time... got just about 44 degree (cam card for dot to dot is 40) and on the back side 4, which dot to dot should be 0... so to me that confirms I'm just about 4 degree advance....

So, am I right? or did I screw this up?



here's the exhaust pics..
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Last edited by kendawg73; April 13th, 2017 at 05:04 AM.
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post #18 of 22 Old April 13th, 2017, 10:32 PM
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I checked PTV and went dot to dot on the TC on my top end build, goes like a raped ape.
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post #19 of 22 Old April 14th, 2017, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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I checked PTV and went dot to dot on the TC on my top end build, goes like a raped ape.

from what I've gathered most aftermarkt cams have at least 4 degree's of advnace ground into them... so dot to dot, if you degree it you would see that... not sure what cam you used, but the E303 cam that I used dosen't have any advance ground into it... so if I did my degree'ing right I'm almost at 4 (3 1/2 I think)... by setting mine to 2A since it was 1 degree advance dot to -dot already .... another thing I have gathered is that most of them are off... so you have to degree it to see what you really have...

So I'm hoping one of the knowlegable people will reply soon on whether my stuff is right, and whether I should leave it where it is, or attempt to set it to 4A but then I'm going to be at least 5 - 5/12 advance at that point... then I get do my PTV check and then I can put this thing together.. If I don't see any replies, I'm going to go ahead and try the 4A setting, and degree it (I should be at 5 1/2 degree advance then) and I will do the PTV check there.... so at least if the clearnce is good, and later I hear I should go back to 2A, I'll won't have to do the PTV again. I really want to get this done this week end.. so I can move forward.

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post #20 of 22 Old April 14th, 2017, 10:37 AM
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The 2A setting will do you well. I'd leave it right there.

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