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post #61 of 116 Old October 19th, 2014, 11:34 PM
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Are your new cam keys longer than the old ones? Maybe catching a burr on the head along the circumference of the seal? I've read all through your project thread and this one. As meticulous as you seem to be, I doubt you messed up the degree process...the only other pieces since it rotated freely are the new cam keys right?


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post #62 of 116 Old October 20th, 2014, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dhicks7806 View Post
Are your new cam keys longer than the old ones? Maybe catching a burr on the head along the circumference of the seal? I've read all through your project thread and this one. As meticulous as you seem to be, I doubt you messed up the degree process...the only other pieces since it rotated freely are the new cam keys right?


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That is correct.

The cam keys were the same base pieces as the old ones, just ground better. They're the Cloyes cam keys for 4V adjustable secondaries. The old ones were ground with a dremel, the new ones were actually ground on a nice grinding fixture so they're much more precise. The shims however were new pieces, but I can't imagine them slipping out and catching anything? I could be wrong though.

I guess I'll just have to remove followers until I find out. If they're all out and it still sticks, the keys/shims are the next suspects.
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post #63 of 116 Old October 20th, 2014, 10:56 AM
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post #64 of 116 Old October 20th, 2014, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Good news/bad news time.

Good news is I found the problem. I took rockers off one by one to see if I could find a problem. Passenger side was A-OK. Then I got to the drivers side. I started taking them off. Then I got to the rear intake valve on cyl #7. It was hard to compress the spring, but with some fiddling I got the follower out. It was almost too easy. I had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Then the bad news.

I looked and something was off. The spring was fully compressed.




For some reason the valve is stuck open. The spring is fully compressed, keepers and retainer in place, valve stem isn't bent. The spring isn't broken. I can't compress it any more, and I can't move the valve.

This would explain why it worked several times but jammed up out of nowhere. Something must have caused it to jam. It can't be a bent valve because the other intake valve is fine.

Looks like the head has to come off and figure out what the fuck is wrong. Going to order a new head gasket.



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post #65 of 116 Old October 20th, 2014, 08:21 PM
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Damn if you were outside and it was raining Pussy you'd somehow get hit on top of the head with a dick. that's crappy luck man!! I hope you figure it out.


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post #66 of 116 Old October 20th, 2014, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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Damn if you were outside and it was raining Pussy you'd somehow get hit on top of the head with a dick. that's crappy luck man!! I hope you figure it out.
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post #67 of 116 Old October 20th, 2014, 11:08 PM
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hmmm. the valve stem must be bent, or spring pressure would have pulled it back. if it stuck in guide and piston hit it, that would have bent it, but it has to be bent to stick open at 230 lbs + spring pressure... bearing spin and cause ptv?

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post #68 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 12:02 AM
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hmmm. the valve stem must be bent, or spring pressure would have pulled it back. if it stuck in guide and piston hit it, that would have bent it, but it has to be bent to stick open at 230 lbs + spring pressure... bearing spin and cause ptv?

I doubt he has a spun bearing on an engine that's never run. This is an interesting one for sure though. I'm curious to see what happened here.

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post #69 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 03:34 AM
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At least you found it before you fired the engine. I vote bent valve.


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post #70 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 08:28 AM
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you didnt drop a bolt down in there did ya...


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post #71 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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hmmm. the valve stem must be bent, or spring pressure would have pulled it back. if it stuck in guide and piston hit it, that would have bent it, but it has to be bent to stick open at 230 lbs + spring pressure... bearing spin and cause ptv?
I'm skeptical of a bent valve since it's only been turned over a few times by hand, and as soon as I feel resistance I stop. That's what lead me to this chase in the first place, is I felt resistance when it would contact that valve.

Not to mention it can't be a cam timing issue since even the other intake valve on that cylinder is fine. Awfully odd.

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I doubt he has a spun bearing on an engine that's never run. This is an interesting one for sure though. I'm curious to see what happened here.
If I've managed to spin a Clevite H-series bearing on a fresh engine, polished crank, slathered in assembly lube, I should just never, ever, touch a car again.

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you didnt drop a bolt down in there did ya...
All bolts are accounted for. The only bolts that have been remotely near the top of the cylinder head are the head stud bolts, and those are too big to even fit down the bore, and are all accounted for and torqued down.

I can only speculate a valve guide or spring issue of some sort, but we won't know until the head is off.
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post #72 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Pulled the head today to inspect it. My biggest fear was pulling it, finding a bent valve and no root cause, with a solution, but no cause and no way to prevent it again.

Well it looks like I didn't have to worry about that.

I pull the head, see the valve stuck open and lo and behold...


That is an M6 bolt wedged between the valve and head. The valve isn't bent, the seat isn't chewed up, and there's just a cosmetic imprint on the piston.

Odds are I'm going to get a new valve and just throw it in there. The old one may be ok, but I haven't been able to get the bolt out, and think I might have to destroy the valve in the process.


Here's where it get's funny. The ports in the head are taped off. I taped them off as soon as I pulled the blower. I was scratching my head as to how the fuck it could get in there before I taped it.

Then it hit me. When I pulled the blower, I remembered one bolt was missing, and the rest were kind of loose, which was right after I picked it up from the fabricator. He also had an 01 Cobra in the shop and another he was mocking up with mine that was running a different intake manifold. I highly suspect that he must have yanked the blower to mock up whatever he needed, put it back on, and never noticed that bolt got stuck in there.

I suppose I'll count myself lucky that I didn't send it up there with a running motor, because it would have been much, much more expensive. Not to mention if I didn't find this now, it could have wrecked a very expensive motor. As it stands I'm out some time, a valve, and $35 for a head gasket. Not a big deal.

Only question that lingers is if I should pull the other head and inspect it while I'm at it, which would be another $35 for head gaskets.
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post #73 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 08:15 PM
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Holy crap man, Im glad you found the BOLT in your motor Lol. Ide pull the other head as of this point just to make sure. Make sure you tape the living shit out of those intake and exhuast outlets this time.


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post #74 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 08:32 PM
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... "so there I was, looking at this Gawdamn bolt sitting there holding the valve open"

my varied build problems suddenly seem so minor. I'm glad you didn't end up with serious damage from that, and hopefully you'll be rolling along soon!
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post #75 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Holy crap man, Im glad you found the BOLT in your motor Lol. Ide pull the other head as of this point just to make sure. Make sure you tape the living shit out of those intake and exhuast outlets this time.
It's the damndest thing. Between cleaning and inspecting both heads, including looking at and wiping down the runners and then taping them off, I should have found it. Unless maybe it was behind the valve stem/guide, which is where it is currently lodged.

Either way, you're right, I think I'll drop the extra $40 and get a new gasket for the other side and give both of those heads a thorough inspection. $40 isn't too bad for peace of mind in the grand scheme.

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... "so there I was, looking at this Gawdamn bolt sitting there holding the valve open"

my varied build problems suddenly seem so minor. I'm glad you didn't end up with serious damage from that, and hopefully you'll be rolling along soon!
I'm oddly optimistic about this. If they had dropped that bolt in there on a good running engine and never told me, it would have be an absolute fucking mess, and I probably would have jumped off a bridge. But this was caught early, and I'm out the cost of 2 HGs and a valve, and a few hours. Could be worse.
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post #76 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 09:03 PM
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I agree I would check the other head now. It's not that expensive, and it shouldn't take long but it'll be good insurance.

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post #77 of 116 Old October 21st, 2014, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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Fuck it. For another $50 ordered another HG from Rockauto.

Going to order a valve from Tousley in the morning.
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post #78 of 116 Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by WickedSnake00 View Post
Pulled the head today to inspect it. My biggest fear was pulling it, finding a bent valve and no root cause, with a solution, but no cause and no way to prevent it again.

Well it looks like I didn't have to worry about that.

I pull the head, see the valve stuck open and lo and behold...


That is an M6 bolt wedged between the valve and head. The valve isn't bent, the seat isn't chewed up, and there's just a cosmetic imprint on the piston.

Odds are I'm going to get a new valve and just throw it in there. The old one may be ok, but I haven't been able to get the bolt out, and think I might have to destroy the valve in the process.


Here's where it get's funny. The ports in the head are taped off. I taped them off as soon as I pulled the blower. I was scratching my head as to how the fuck it could get in there before I taped it.

Then it hit me. When I pulled the blower, I remembered one bolt was missing, and the rest were kind of loose, which was right after I picked it up from the fabricator. He also had an 01 Cobra in the shop and another he was mocking up with mine that was running a different intake manifold. I highly suspect that he must have yanked the blower to mock up whatever he needed, put it back on, and never noticed that bolt got stuck in there.

I suppose I'll count myself lucky that I didn't send it up there with a running motor, because it would have been much, much more expensive. Not to mention if I didn't find this now, it could have wrecked a very expensive motor. As it stands I'm out some time, a valve, and $35 for a head gasket. Not a big deal.

Only question that lingers is if I should pull the other head and inspect it while I'm at it, which would be another $35 for head gaskets.
............

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post #79 of 116 Old October 22nd, 2014, 10:20 AM
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woohoo!!! had a friend with a super bad misfire on his 4v, had an intake bolt holding open an intake valve. still ran, things were still ok as well.... good catch.


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post #80 of 116 Old November 9th, 2014, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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With the bolt removed, I removed the valve and installed a new one just to be safe. The old one appears to be just fine, but I didn't want to risk it. I lapped in the new one, put the spring back in, and inspected both heads. I sealed them off AGAIN and fingers crossed, re-installed the heads.

With the heads back on, I got the joy of installing the timing chains and degreeing them again. Both heads came back within a degree of where they were last time around. I did get delayed a bit last night when I had to drop everything as the police were doing a door to door search. How's that for luck?

Not very exciting since I was re-doing work that was already documented.



For any interested about the installation you can see the basic dot to dot method here. Dot for the crank gear is straight down, keyway at about 10 o'clock, passenger side dot at about 12 o'clock, driver's side at about 1 o'clock.

For my particular installation you can see the crank gear is aligned in the R4 (retarded 4 deg) position, and the cams are actually one tooth advanced, to get the alignment I need.

Back on topic, all the followers and lash adjusters were installed, the engine was rotated 10x, added assembly lube to the cams, and it was rotated a further 10x.

Stay tuned for the oil pump pickup and oil pan installation. Then it's pretty simple from there on out, aside from the rear cover and clutch installation.
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