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post #1 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Dyno numbers in ... have a few questions

I'll start with my sheet and to say my tuner didn't think I should run more than ~12psi on just 93 pump gas. He said that after I told him I'd like to see mid 500's but wasn't sure if my pump or WG spring would get me there. He said he was more worried about running out of octane on anything over 12psi. He's recommending a switch to E85 or to move on from the stock cams.

So here's my sheet ...




My questions have to do with not gaining much power as we turned the boost up.

My tune from 2 years ago was 397/453 on 9psi.

My 1st pull yesterday was 406/45? on 10.39psi.

3rd pull was 429/45? on 11.44psi

My last was what you see on the sheet.


That's a net gain of 46whp going from 9psi to 13psi. Two years ago I went from 360 on 8psi to 397 on 9psi. This year I only gain 46 for going up 4psi ... what gives ??


I know that psi is only a measurement of restriction and seeing the psi increase but not the hp has me thinking I hit a serious restriction somewhere. I'm reading boost at the EGR plate on the Plenum so that's pointing me someplace past the TB/plenum. The stock PI intake should not be the issue and I thought the stock PI cams should make more then 450whp also.

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MHS stage II valve springs ... new this spring
Stock PI cams
Accufab 75mm TB/Plenum


So do my numbers look low or is it just me ??



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post #2 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 03:05 PM
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BA, do you know how much max spark advance he used in the tune?

What's your compression ratio?

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post #3 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 03:12 PM
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I don't agree with the statement about octane at 12psi but that's between you and your tuner.

For what its worth you made another lb of boost than me, the only addition I have is cms stage 2 na cams and I made 525rwhp through an auto.

I was seeing almost almost 30rwhp per psi
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post #4 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBoy101 View Post
BA, do you know how much max spark advance he used in the tune?

What's your compression ratio?
My original tune from two years ago had timing set at 13* below 4k RPM then went to 16*. The last pull we did he dropped total timing by 1* because I was going higher than 12psi.

CR is 9.3~9.8. Not positive which. Whatever stock 99-04 CR is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT o1 View Post
I don't agree with the statement about octane at 12psi but that's between you and your tuner.

For what its worth you made another lb of boost than me, the only addition I have is cms stage 2 na cams and I made 525rwhp through an auto.

I was seeing almost almost 30rwhp per psi

I figured I'd be around 500 by 13psi too. I got 30+ going from 8 to 9, was hoping to see about that right up through.



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post #5 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 04:29 PM
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Do you know what your intake air temp is for each pull? Do you have a blow-through or draw-through MAF?

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post #6 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 04:36 PM
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Heat and detonation are the problems. A while back a member with a non-intercooled Vortech changed pulleys and went from 10 psi to 12 psi. He gained maybe 5 rwhp. Because of the air inlet temperature timing had to be pulled. E85 is a higher octane fuel. You can run more timing with it without the risk of detonation.

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post #7 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShickyBalboa View Post
Do you know what your intake air temp is for each pull? Do you have a blow-through or draw-through MAF?
Not sure what they were yesterday but it was a nice 70* day. Last year on a 85*+ day while driving around air temps went from low 103* to 118* and that was for a 2nd through 4th pull.

I'm running a slotted MAF ... blow-through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle2000GT View Post
Heat and detonation are the problems. A while back a member with a non-intercooled Vortech changed pulleys and went from 10 psi to 12 psi. He gained maybe 5 rwhp. Because of the air inlet temperature timing had to be pulled. E85 is a higher octane fuel. You can run more timing with it without the risk of detonation.
Being a return system ... E85 would be as easy as putting a sump in my tank and running an external pump.

Just confused as to why I couldn't even reach 450.



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post #8 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 05:59 PM
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93 is good for well over 12psi on our 2v's. There a plenty of high HP pump cars. Not that going with e85 would hurt but that's not your issue
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post #9 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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No ... not if I'm not gaining anything while I turn the boost up

Would only 15* of timing keep the HP numbers that far down where I am ?? You think my tuner is playing it to safe ??



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post #10 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAzombie View Post
No ... not if I'm not gaining anything while I turn the boost up

Would only 15* of timing keep the HP numbers that far down where I am ?? You think my tuner is playing it to safe ??
I'm at 15* of timing as well. That's safe but I still think something is up. Is this a stick or auto?

A fair amount of people have issues with the 70mm on3 turbo and the back pressure but usually that doesn't happen until they push it up around 18psi
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post #11 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAzombie View Post
Just confused as to why I couldn't even reach 450.
I can run more than that with the stock MAF and a MAFia.
There is nothing in your garage. Perhaps more details would help.

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post #12 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 07:03 PM
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To get an estimate on how much a timing change will help or hurt you, figure about 5 HP per degree of timing, this is pretty close on our engines at this boost level, assuming the engine can take the extra timing without going into detonation.

As Eagle pointed out the tunes are these cars are setup to pull timing out as the IAT increases.

Do you know what your typical IAT was before the boost increase?

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post #13 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 08:29 PM
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MHS Stage II spring spec
Spring load at 1.68" 100lbs

That is not enough spring pressure.
Really not enough if you only have one 38mm wastegate.
I would add another wasegate and put a shim under the exhaust spring
to bump up the seat pressure.
I run .060 shims under my valve springs now.

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post #14 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBoy101 View Post
To get an estimate on how much a timing change will help or hurt you, figure about 5 HP per degree of timing, this is pretty close on our engines at this boost level, assuming the engine can take the extra timing without going into detonation.

As Eagle pointed out the tunes are these cars are setup to pull timing out as the IAT increases.

Do you know what your typical IAT was before the boost increase?
On my car 1* of timing equalled 15 rwhp. My first pull on a loaded dyno with 10# of boost and 13* of timing was 430 corrected. We took 1* of timing out to get it to 415. Op your numbers seem low. Is this the same tuner as the first time you tuned your car.

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post #15 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT o1 View Post
I'm at 15* of timing as well. That's safe but I still think something is up. Is this a stick or auto?

A fair amount of people have issues with the 70mm on3 turbo and the back pressure but usually that doesn't happen until they push it up around 18psi
Through the stock T45 5 speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle2000GT View Post
I can run more than that with the stock MAF and a MAFia.
There is nothing in your garage. Perhaps more details would help.
Sorry about the garage, I'll get to it sometime.

Only thing not listed in 1st post is

Pro-M slot MAF ... blow-through
single 340lph pump
60# SD injectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBoy101 View Post
To get an estimate on how much a timing change will help or hurt you, figure about 5 HP per degree of timing, this is pretty close on our engines at this boost level, assuming the engine can take the extra timing without going into detonation.

As Eagle pointed out the tunes are these cars are setup to pull timing out as the IAT increases.

Do you know what your typical IAT was before the boost increase?
I'll run some logs tomorrow. A log I did on 4/25 showed air charge temps steady at 58* and never got above 68* during any pulls. This was on an hour long drive with 15 or so pulls. Temps were consistent throughout the full hour long log.



Quote:
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I like MM though. It's a mustang forum, and, the only one I know of where I could tell you to fuck off.. or to suck my dick. Or, to tell you you have a small penis or that I fucked your mom last night and it's ok.
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post #16 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 09:06 PM
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What plugs are you running and what are they gapped at

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post #17 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k02 View Post
MHS Stage II spring spec
Spring load at 1.68" 100lbs

That is not enough spring pressure.
Really not enough if you only have one 38mm wastegate.
I would add another wasegate and put a shim under the exhaust spring
to bump up the seat pressure.
I run .060 shims under my valve springs now.
I'm lost with how the exhaust valve would need more seat pressure. I can understand the intake with the compressed air pushing on the top of it. MHS list them as good up to 20psi I believe. I'm not saying they are just seems weird if they're the issue when people push stock springs to ~12psi before worrying about float.

I'm running a single 44mm WG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic 02 View Post
On my car 1* of timing equalled 15 rwhp. My first pull on a loaded dyno with 10# of boost and 13* of timing was 430 corrected. We took 1* of timing out to get it to 415. Op your numbers seem low. Is this the same tuner as the first time you tuned your car.
Yes, same tuner ... same dyno.

July 15, 2013.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic 02 View Post
What plugs are you running and what are they gapped at
New Autolite 103's gapped at .028

I plan on opening up the gap back up as much as I can. I didn't want to take a chance of having spark blowout. I was thinking I may need to go to 16psi.

That is one thing that is different from the 9psi numbers. That was with NGK TR6's gapped at .032-.034. Also with the 103's gapped at .028 the idle is rough now (pre tune), almost like it's cammed.



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post #18 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic 02 View Post
On my car 1* of timing equalled 15 rwhp. My first pull on a loaded dyno with 10# of boost and 13* of timing was 430 corrected. We took 1* of timing out to get it to 415. Op your numbers seem low. Is this the same tuner as the first time you tuned your car.
I can believe that if the car was dipping into detonation at the higher timing setting, otherwise that large a difference was likely just run to run variation that you see on chassis dynos.

Getting a chassis dyno to repeat within +/- 1% or so is pretty good and that means at the 400whp level you should expect to see as much as 10 HP variation between back to back runs.

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post #19 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 10:21 PM
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Ran 9.5psi and 20* timing above 5k rpm on straight 93, then added a tiny dab of 50/50 meth without making tune changes. Ran fine on both no detonation or problems.

The peak numbers are low for 13psi on a 70mm, however it looks like a good powerband. Since your running stock cams, a .68ar, and on3 turbo you can't really expect awesome efficiency out of it. I think a solid 70mm (precision, BW, etc.) .81ar or greater setup would be 500whp on 13lbs. Then again the powerband would be more peaky with the bigger ar, so you would have a less broad powerband.


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post #20 of 27 Old May 17th, 2015, 11:53 PM
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OP has the same exact same motor setup as i had but i was supercharged, i had a mmr 900 sb with -18cc slugs, mmr stage 2 heads with comp high load springs, and stock cams. I had a little bit more aggressive tune cause i was running a large meth shot. but it layed down 525 on 14# of boost and 18 degrees timing on std, sae probably would have been high 400's.



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