Twitchy steering - tramlining? bumpsteer? - Forums at Modded Mustangs
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post #1 of 20 Old June 23rd, 2017, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Twitchy steering - tramlining? bumpsteer?

When I bought the car 7 years ago everything up front was stock except for some Eibach Sportline springs and 245/45/18 tires. The car handled very nicely and the steering was really smooth and tight. The last couple of years the steering has deteriorated significantly and since then I have been chasing the steering I had when I bought the car.

This is everything I have done in the last few months:
New steering rack
H&R race springs
Bilstein HD struts
Steeda X2 ball joints (no spacer)
Moog tie rods and hub bearings
MM solid steering shaft
Alignment done last week (5 degrees caster, -1.5 camber, and 0.15 toe-in)

Everything I have done has helped significantly but the car still likes to steer itself. If I hit a bump or rut the car follows it pretty vigorously. If I brake even mildly I have to hold the steering wheel perfectly straight otherwise the steering will pull hard to the left or right. I'm not sure what else to do. I have pretty much replaced everything upfront except for the K-member and control arms. I feel like this car should handle like it's on rails. Plus a few other members on here helped me decide on this exact setup because of how well it handled. I must be missing something.

I forgot to mention, if the road tilts left or right then the car wants to turn in to that without any input from me. If I'm turning left and the road tilts left then I actually have to pull right otherwise the car turns in to tight.



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Last edited by dexdiman; June 23rd, 2017 at 07:33 PM. Reason: Additional info
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post #2 of 20 Old June 23rd, 2017, 04:39 PM
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Bump steer, also it's amplified with wider tires upfront

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post #3 of 20 Old June 26th, 2017, 02:05 PM
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Yeah sounds like bump steer to me, get the steeda bump steer kit, I did that with steeda ball joints and it helped my tramlining issues.
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post #4 of 20 Old June 27th, 2017, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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I've had the same size tires on the car since I bought it.

Do you have any suggestions were I might be able to have these installed? I called 4 shops yesterday, 1 was a normal tire/alignment shop, and 3 others were race shops, and they all had no idea what a bumpsteer kit was until I explained it to them, and only one had a small idea what they were but it would have been like $300 or more to align the kit. OUCH...



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post #5 of 20 Old June 27th, 2017, 11:39 AM
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Installation wise it's very easy to do, but to get the bumpsteer dialed in you need a bumpsteer gauge. However that being said most people just setup the bumpsteer arms to be parallel with the A arms under load and its usually enough,

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post #6 of 20 Old June 27th, 2017, 11:45 AM
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I have the maximum motorsports kit going on my 03, and they have a recommended setting for the bumpsteer kit for those that street the car primarily, which is what I will be going with. The kit is only ~$130 and shouldnt take more than an hour to install and align, so $300 is waaaaaay off IMO

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post #7 of 20 Old June 27th, 2017, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Derfdog15 View Post
I have the maximum motorsports kit going on my 03, and they have a recommended setting for the bumpsteer kit for those that street the car primarily, which is what I will be going with. The kit is only ~$130 and shouldnt take more than an hour to install and align, so $300 is waaaaaay off IMO
Yeah when they said that I was like, "No, that's ridiculous". I can buy the kit and gauge for $250 from MM.

What is their recommended setup? Wouldn't it vary biased on how the front suspension was setup? Or is the recommended setup detail on the gauge they sell?



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post #8 of 20 Old June 27th, 2017, 04:01 PM
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Yeah when they said that I was like, "No, that's ridiculous". I can buy the kit and gauge for $250 from MM.

What is their recommended setup? Wouldn't it vary biased on how the front suspension was setup? Or is the recommended setup detail on the gauge they sell?
There's a spec you just don't want the tire to toe in/out too much when going up and down

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post #9 of 20 Old June 28th, 2017, 10:17 AM
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Yeah when they said that I was like, "No, that's ridiculous". I can buy the kit and gauge for $250 from MM.

What is their recommended setup? Wouldn't it vary biased on how the front suspension was setup? Or is the recommended setup detail on the gauge they sell?
Its beena bit since I read the instructions, but they basically gave a recommended set up for the spacers, etc. for a daily driven car.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/As...TR-2-4-7r2.pdf

Instructions above, by my understanding you can start at the default stock setup, and go from there as needed. Having the gauge would be better however, as then you can get it specced perfect for your own setup.

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post #10 of 20 Old June 29th, 2017, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Is the deviation between the control arm and tie rod significant enough to cause bumpsteer?




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post #11 of 20 Old June 29th, 2017, 11:06 PM
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Yes you can see it in the picture, your pitman arm is at a higher angle than your a arm

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post #12 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 12:53 AM
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Is the deviation between the control arm and tie rod significant enough to cause bumpsteer?

There's really no way to tell by looking at the angles of the tie rod and control arm. Bumpsteer is the complex result of several factors, but essentially there is a line made between the control arm inner pivot, and the center of the ball joint. This imaginary line is referred to as the "virtual swing arm." The tie rod needs to be parallel with this line, not parallel with the control arm itself.

Setting the tie rod so that it's roughly parallel with the control arm might get you close, or you could actually be making the problem worse. A bumpsteer gauge is going to be needed to get the spacer stack correct.
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post #13 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 05:24 AM
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There's really no way to tell by looking at the angles of the tie rod and control arm. Bumpsteer is the complex result of several factors, but essentially there is a line made between the control arm inner pivot, and the center of the ball joint. This imaginary line is referred to as the "virtual swing arm." The tie rod needs to be parallel with this line, not parallel with the control arm itself.

Setting the tie rod so that it's roughly parallel with the control arm might get you close, or you could actually be making the problem worse. A bumpsteer gauge is going to be needed to get the spacer stack correct.
You are correct I guess I should have been more descriptive, getting the tie rod arm parallel is a good starting point but to get it dialed in you definitely need a gauge there's no other way.

While its true there is no sure fire way of telling without measuring but usually if the tie rod arm is going upwards towards the knuckle from the rack it's a sign that your geometry is off. The arc of the A arm and the arc of the tie rod have to be close to the same, you will never get it 100% with spacers, but fully torqued racing sells an infinite adjustment set which uses a Threaded rod instead of spacers. But honestly a it depends on your goals with the car and how crazy accurate you want it to be

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post #14 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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I didn't think the picture was going to be a definitive "Yes this causes bumpsteer", "No this won't". It was more of a "are these parallel enough or not based on the simple idea that the control arm and tie rod should be parallel." Plus I wanted to see, based off of experience, if anyone was able to see that and say "Yes, mine was more parallel and caused bumpsteer, or no mine was way more deflected and I didn't have bumpsteer issues" to see if I needed to go down the road of purchasing a kit and gauge. Thank you everyone for you input and info. I was hoping to avoid a bumpsteer kit with this setup but I guess I just need to do it.



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post #15 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 10:27 AM
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I didn't think the picture was going to be a definitive "Yes this causes bumpsteer", "No this won't". It was more of a "are these parallel enough or not based on the simple idea that the control arm and tie rod should be parallel." Plus I wanted to see, based off of experience, if anyone was able to see that and say "Yes, mine was more parallel and caused bumpsteer, or no mine was way more deflected and I didn't have bumpsteer issues" to see if I needed to go down the road of purchasing a kit and gauge. Thank you everyone for you input and info. I was hoping to avoid a bumpsteer kit with this setup but I guess I just need to do it.
I would say anything more than a 1-1.5" drop your going to throw off your bump steer,

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post #16 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 01:39 PM
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actually I just noticed you have X2 ball joints, they them selves alter the geometry between the A arm and the tie rod end. Right on Steeda's website, they still recommend using a bump-steer kit with their X2 ball joints

https://www.steeda.com/steeda-x2-mus...-555-8101.html

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post #17 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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actually I just noticed you have X2 ball joints, they them selves alter the geometry between the A arm and the tie rod end. Right on Steeda's website, they still recommend using a bump-steer kit with their X2 ball joints

https://www.steeda.com/steeda-x2-mus...-555-8101.html
Yeah I saw that, but a couple members said to get the X2 ball joints with H&R race springs and I wouldn't need a bumpsteer because they were running that, and I also did some research and a few other forums said the same thing. So I figured I wouldn't need them. I guess my car is different than theirs... I also didn't use the 1/2" spacer and those H&R springs are about a 1.5" drop which puts me close to 2". Maybe I should put the spacer in and see if that helps.



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post #18 of 20 Old June 30th, 2017, 04:01 PM
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This is a great thread. good info. It looks like I'm going to need a bumpsteer kit as well. My steering and traimlining is so bad right now, mind you all new parts, factory alignment, etc...this is the only thing I can think of as to why my front end feels so loosey goosey all the time, follows ruts badly, overall it's not tight feeling.

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post #19 of 20 Old July 4th, 2017, 03:39 AM
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Bump steer, also it's amplified with wider tires upfront

+1

Just experienced that today. I went from 255's to 275's up front now it almost feels like I have play in the steering wheel, but I get instant steering from inputs still. Just has a funny feel to it. I didn't notice it at all with the 255's. I have coil overs in the front, but I have it up pretty high because I have rear stock springs. Maybe a 1.25-1.50" drop. I guess I need a bump steer kit now.
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post #20 of 20 Old July 5th, 2017, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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I did replace my LCAs with MM HD LCAs last weekend and I noticed a difference in straight line stability, because the steering wheel feels more stable. I didn't think LCAs would affect steering input in that way. I knew it would affect cornering, but not stability overall. I will still be getting a bumpsteer kit though.

Just another idea for anyone else experiencing this issue.



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