If u were wondering what 410s do with out a tune - Page 2 - Forums at Modded Mustangs
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 53 Old May 21st, 2011, 10:01 PM
I <3 Boost
 
JoshC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Grapevine, Texas
Posts: 7,687
                   
iTrader: 0 reviews
Send a message via MSN to JoshC



My 04 Cobra Build <-- pics/info about my car

MM Cobra Club #2.76
JoshC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 53 Old May 21st, 2011, 10:41 PM
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Davenport, Florida
Posts: 994
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Send a message via AIM to kennyGT
casper is correct. Common sense says if your telling the SCT tuner you have 4.10s, then it's telling the computer u have 4.10s. That is why the one fellow didn't have a problem because you had changed it. This is not a fact just thinking; i would assume in most case with leaving the tranny in D it would be short shifting, as in manually shifting would over rev your tranny, thus the reason your times were slower. is that correctc asper?

07 GT/CS manual - STOCK
88 LX automatic-SOLD
01 GT manual-UNDER CONSTRUCTION
97 GT automatic-SOLD
kennyGT is offline  
post #23 of 53 Old May 22nd, 2011, 01:25 AM
9k All Day.
 
VinceS2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: South Jersey.
Posts: 3,449
         
iTrader: 0 reviews
^^^^^^Casper is always correct.

he's like the Jazzer of auto transmissions.

reppin' cause i love learnin new stuFF.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 101fng View Post
Now, I'm fucking terrified of beetles. I mean, what of it had worked its way into my butthole or something?? They creep me the fuck out.
VinceS2K is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #24 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
JD mustang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 446
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Tuner back in

Got the tune back from sct. Took the car out and ran her hard. Then did 3 est 1/8 mile runs on a clear highway. All is well runs like a mustang should
JD mustang is offline  
post #25 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 04:27 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Waterloo, IA
Posts: 7,007
Blog Entries: 2
               
iTrader: 7 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD mustang View Post
SO IF YOUR WANTING TO RACE 1/8 MILE MAKE SURE U GET A TUNE WITH THE GEARS OR U ARE WASTING UR MONEY JUST FYI


With the auto trans tuning issues aside, you won't be "wasting" your money on gears if you don't get a tune.

This is more for the manual crowd, but don't be scared from getting gears if you don't have a tune or tuner. You're not going to be slower in the 1/8 or 1/4 mile by putting in steeper-than-stock gears. I'm guessing the reason this guys wife's car is slower because they went from a performance tune to a stock tune.

Do the Right Thing, Cook. ~Zip.
dcook_14 is offline  
post #26 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 04:34 PM
Moderator
 
03SonicBoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,592
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by casper gt View Post
by your shift point comments I have to assume the car is an auto, if thats the case, quit driving it without a tune for the gears unless you want to put a trans in it (if it's not to late already).

electronic automatic transmissions use numerous inputs to opperate (from battery voltage to throttle posision to road speed & everything in between) the cannot tolerate a gear swap without a tune immediately (ie. have the tuner in your hand ready to install the tune before you drive the car for the first time with the gears).

I hope it works out ok for you, but quit driving the car till yo have the tuner.
Digging back into this because I was thinking about it. Hopefully Casper comes back in here to answer. But WHY does it matter to the tranny what the ratio is? It doesn't seem to me that it would matter. What tranny input is effected by changing the ratio?

The ratio is changed after the tranny. It's essentially like saying changing your tire size can destroy your tranny.

03SonicBoom is offline  
post #27 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 04:37 PM
Hardcore Enthusiast
 
schoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Independence, Missouri
Posts: 1,411
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
I'm really glad i learned about this...idk how long the previous guys had gears in but i know he had a s/c on the car before trading it in.

When i got the car the speedo was off though and has been since 24k miles and im up to 43k...no problems though! I'm gonna be ordering a tuner though friday when i get my paycheck

If i normally run the 87 octane, will a "performance tune" for the 87 not make much difference at all? I dont ever drag or anything. So i was thinking about getting and 87 octane economy type tune, 87 octane performance, and the a 91 octane performance just for kicks...

schoff is offline  
post #28 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Waterloo, IA
Posts: 7,007
Blog Entries: 2
               
iTrader: 7 reviews
This is to SonicBoom, and I'm just spitballing. If I'm completely off base I'm not going to be sad.

I would assume it's bad for the transmission to take in your rpm, throttle position, load, etc. into consideration and then make it's calculations based on a vehicle speed that is different from the actual speed the vehicle is going.

This is a stretch, and I doubt if my numbers will be right but it's just an example. If you put in gears and don't tune it, your speedo might say 55 when you're really going 45. So if you get into the throttle (like to pass someone), your trans will think it has to downshift to pick up speed since it thinks you're going 55. But since you're actually going 45 you'd probably be okay staying in the gear you're in, but when the trans downshifts it might grenade.

Also, it could be that when you're going 60 and your rpms are at 2500 rpm the trans will be "confused" on why the rpms are so high at that speed with such a low throttle position. Then it'll be like "WTF you should be going 70 at those RPMs! I don't know what to do, ahhhhhhh!" and then it starts breaking shit

Do the Right Thing, Cook. ~Zip.
dcook_14 is offline  
post #29 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 05:23 PM
9k All Day.
 
VinceS2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: South Jersey.
Posts: 3,449
         
iTrader: 0 reviews
bahahahahah^^^^^

good explanation.
sounds about what i was thinking, but couldnt put into words.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 101fng View Post
Now, I'm fucking terrified of beetles. I mean, what of it had worked its way into my butthole or something?? They creep me the fuck out.
VinceS2K is offline  
post #30 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
JD mustang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 446
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcook_14 View Post


With the auto trans tuning issues aside, you won't be "wasting" your money on gears if you don't get a tune.

This is more for the manual crowd, but don't be scared from getting gears if you don't have a tune or tuner. You're not going to be slower in the 1/8 or 1/4 mile by putting in steeper-than-stock gears. I'm guessing the reason this guys wife's car is slower because they went from a performance tune to a stock tune.
She was running slower or just about the same her personal best stock with drag radials is 8.92 her best with gears and same tires is 8.96. Now that the tune is back in it it feels like it gained 50 hp but I know it's got to due with the cai and the different shift points and she has over 60 passes so she knows what she is doing
JD mustang is offline  
post #31 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 05:45 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Waterloo, IA
Posts: 7,007
Blog Entries: 2
               
iTrader: 7 reviews
Your entire first post is completely misleading. The entire time you're basically telling people that you went to 4.10s and now your car runs .2 slower in the 1/8th


Quote:
Originally Posted by JD mustang View Post
MY WIFE TOOK HER 07 TO THE TRACK WITH THE NEW 410'S WHILE HER TUNER IS BEING UNLOCKED ( SEE PREVIOUS THREAD FOR WHY ITS LOCKED). HER BEST TIME WAS 9.17. SHE WAS RUNNING 8.9-9.02 WITH STOCK GEARS.
You forget to mention the little tidbit where it states you had a performance tune on the car before, and now you're running a stock tune. The slower times are a result of the change in tunes, not the change in gears.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JD mustang View Post
SHE SAID THAT IT DOES NOT GET GOING TILL THE END OF THE TRACK.
Unless you're just spinning through the first couple of gears, you should take off from the line a lot better with a steeper gear. Once again, the reason the car didn't get going until the end of the track was because of the change in the tune.


I just want to make sure that noobies and whoever else is reading along doesn't get turned off of steep gears because of this thread.

Do the Right Thing, Cook. ~Zip.
dcook_14 is offline  
post #32 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 05:47 PM
Bringing Yellow Back
 
zinc-vert02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: WISCONSIN
Posts: 10,928
             
iTrader: 1 reviews
Send a message via MSN to zinc-vert02
even if it was only the speedo that was fucked up i would change it



THAT SHIT WOULD DRIVE ME BONKERS



Stock long block 2v, stock trans, 100 shot of go fast gas. 315hp and 430 trq on spray
zinc-vert02 is offline  
post #33 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
Regular
 
JD mustang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 446
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcook_14 View Post
Your entire first post is completely misleading. The entire time you're basically telling people that you went to 4.10s and now your car runs .2 slower in the 1/8th




You forget to mention the little tidbit where it states you had a performance tune on the car before, and now you're running a stock tune. The slower times are a result of the change in tunes, not the change in gears.CASPER IS RIGHT it messes everything up on an auto. my car which is a 5 speed no tune i have no problems. I promise i am not misleading anyone




Unless you're just spinning through the first couple of gears, you should take off from the line a lot better with a steeper gear. Once again, the reason the car didn't get going until the end of the track was because of the change in the tune.


I just want to make sure that noobies and whoever else is reading along doesn't get turned off of steep gears because of this thread.
NO, im not misleading anyone --with 410s and no tune it ran a best of 8.96. the tuner was locked when the dealer flashed it. we got it back ck engine light was on and speedo was off. with completly stock it ran a best 8.92 this car has not gone down the track with the tune.

Last edited by JD mustang; May 24th, 2011 at 06:09 PM.
JD mustang is offline  
post #34 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 06:11 PM
Moderator
 
03SonicBoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,592
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcook_14 View Post
Also, it could be that when you're going 60 and your rpms are at 2500 rpm the trans will be "confused" on why the rpms are so high at that speed with such a low throttle position. Then it'll be like "WTF you should be going 70 at those RPMs! I don't know what to do, ahhhhhhh!" and then it starts breaking shit
The first part would just grenade because of extra shifts. I wouldn't really say that's due so much to the gears as just too much use.

The part of the quote I left it what I initially thought. But lets say you go from the stock gears (something like 3.27 or whatever) to 4.10s; not tuned.

With stock gears, lets say you're spinning 2000 rpms at 70 mph. But when you switch to 4.10s, lets say you're spinning 2600 rpms at 70 mph. Now the initial assumption is that the tranny would wonder why it's spinning 2600 rpms at 70 mph. But since it's NOT tuned, it will actually think it's spinning 2600 rpms at 80 mph (since the speedo hasn't been corrected) and everything is normal.

The way I see it, all the inputs are still the same. The only difference is the final speed of the wheels. But I think I'm missing something b/c I don't know a ton about tranny's and Casper does.

03SonicBoom is offline  
post #35 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 06:13 PM
I <3 Boost
 
JoshC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Grapevine, Texas
Posts: 7,687
                   
iTrader: 0 reviews
Send a message via MSN to JoshC
the throttle position will be different for the speeds you will be going



My 04 Cobra Build <-- pics/info about my car

MM Cobra Club #2.76
JoshC is offline  
post #36 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 08:01 PM
Regular
 
Katfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central FL
Posts: 166
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
I'd like to hear a better answer than "a bunch of magic happens" and "you'll blow your tranny"

The speedo is an output from the transmission, that's why you need to recalibrate it with the tuner.

I asked BANMA this very question, hopefully they will reply.
Katfish is offline  
post #37 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 10:57 PM
MM elder
 
casper gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: creighton pa
Posts: 9,751
                     
iTrader: 4 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcook_14 View Post
This is to SonicBoom, and I'm just spitballing. If I'm completely off base I'm not going to be sad.

I would assume it's bad for the transmission to take in your rpm, throttle position, load, etc. into consideration and then make it's calculations based on a vehicle speed that is different from the actual speed the vehicle is going.

This is a stretch, and I doubt if my numbers will be right but it's just an example. If you put in gears and don't tune it, your speedo might say 55 when you're really going 45. So if you get into the throttle (like to pass someone), your trans will think it has to downshift to pick up speed since it thinks you're going 55. But since you're actually going 45 you'd probably be okay staying in the gear you're in, but when the trans downshifts it might grenade.

Also, it could be that when you're going 60 and your rpms are at 2500 rpm the trans will be "confused" on why the rpms are so high at that speed with such a low throttle position. Then it'll be like "WTF you should be going 70 at those RPMs! I don't know what to do, ahhhhhhh!" and then it starts breaking shit
this is pretty much on the right track.

the trans opperates of the tps, ect, tct, precieved speed (where the gear/no tune problem is the greatest), line pressure, etc.

when you change gears, it throws off the precieved speed & the trans can't figure out how to shift propperly..

the whole tune thing is being blown out of proportion though, I guess a better way to say it would be the speedo needs recalibrated with an auto that has gears.

MM BRACKET RACING CREW CO-FOUNDER

2012 300a GT A6......10.78 @ 124.........sold



2014 301a GT A6.............12.73 @ 112........d/r only
casper gt is offline  
post #38 of 53 Old May 24th, 2011, 11:01 PM
MM elder
 
casper gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: creighton pa
Posts: 9,751
                     
iTrader: 4 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katfish View Post
I'd like to hear a better answer than "a bunch of magic happens" and "you'll blow your tranny"

The speedo is an output from the transmission, that's why you need to recalibrate it with the tuner.

I asked BANMA this very question, hopefully they will reply.
the reason I try to keep things as simple as possible is because very few people understand how an electronic automatic transmission works.

since you seem to know so much about them, mabie you should explain to these guys how they work.

MM BRACKET RACING CREW CO-FOUNDER

2012 300a GT A6......10.78 @ 124.........sold



2014 301a GT A6.............12.73 @ 112........d/r only
casper gt is offline  
post #39 of 53 Old May 25th, 2011, 12:22 AM
Enthusiast
 
Darwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: America is Great Again
Posts: 870
   
iTrader: 0 reviews
Funny shit. I take my SCT and change the gears and the tire ht and the beast runs hard.
These 05+ autos are touchy. If you understand how the tranny works. Shift point is MPH, with the od off it goes up to a higher mph to give you higher rpms. If you change the ratio of your rear gears the program might not shift with the proper line pressure and at the right time and will not do the job right....boom
Small changes like a 1/2 inch shorter tire wont hurt much but if you go from a stock ratio to the 4.10s it will be quite the jump.

Read the shift point road test in the Service Manual, Throttle Position is pointed out as is Overdrive Position D, Axle Ratio and Shift Speed in mph. If you upset the balance of any of these your car will not perform as it was designed and it will fail.

Do the test with the OD off and the car acts differently than it will in "OD" If your going to do work on a 05+ auto gt you best be sure to get someone whom is in the know....Like Casper. The car shifts when the program (set values are correct) tells it to. With the sct you can go up in mph shift point and you can go down mph (WOT) if your tps is not reading WOT your car will not shift like it is supposed to at WOT and will shift early and the car will be slower. When you do a mod and flash the computer re cal the peddle and look to make sure the throttle plates are at WOT. If they are not do it until it does go to WOT and if that dont work call your tuner.
If your throttle goes past WOT get it corrected.
Protect your investment and don't mod and replace after you screw the pooch...unless you have the means to support stupidity or like living on that edge or are a racer knowing the risks. Don't change the settings on your tune you get from your tuner until AFTER you talk to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalDosage View Post
Something about your avatar creeps me the fuck out.
2006 GT AUTO Mods:
Ford Racing Intake Manifold, 93 TUNE, UDPs, FRPP 4.10, LT's, catted X, LCA, Adj UCA, 3K Converter and P275/40R17 MT, HR cams and Paxton 1200sl
Darwin is offline  
post #40 of 53 Old May 25th, 2011, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
Regular
 
JD mustang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 446
 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Darwin that was well said. Thanks Casper and u guys for the info like I said we put the tune back in and we got lucky no damge that I know of. Can't wait to get my wife to the track with it. Im hoping she will run 8.75 or better
JD mustang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Forums at Modded Mustangs forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome