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post #41 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:34 PM
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I believe that when you die, that's it. Everything you've ever known is completely gone and you yourself are just a memory to those that are still living.
I believe the same thing but dont want to cuz its depressing as hell imo.



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post #42 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:34 PM
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out of all the theories i've ever heard or thought of myself, atheism/not believing in any type of afterlife is the only one that seems absolutely impossible to me.

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post #43 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:36 PM
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When it is all said and done, forget religion, forget faith, forget god, forget EVERYTHING you know........why is there so much crap about Ghosts and Spirits??? There must be "something" out there..something, whether good or bad.

Makes you think.........
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post #44 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
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Have you ever opened the bible and gave it a read? I urge you too, no matter your beliefs. It will either solidify your faith or make you really start to question.

I agree that the debates go back and forth and usually go nowhere but that's because with science you can't prove something supernatural 'doesn't' exist, and religion's circular theory is bullet proof. It was made that way because it was simple dating back to its origins. The bible was written to simplify our creation. Nowadays everyone grabs their own perception of religion, molds it to their liking and acts as though they know the answer. It's not about knowing, it's about being open-minded.
I've done my fair share of reading and attended church several times, but my mind is still left open. I just want to know more about it, I know the "facts" will never be clear, but I want to believe that there is an afterlife...I just don't understand, our existence really puzzles me... but I'm really trying to stay open minded!

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post #45 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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out of all the theories i've ever heard or thought of myself, atheism/not believing in any type of afterlife is the only one that seems absolutely impossible to me.
Exactly, we were created by something...

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post #46 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:47 PM
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out of all the theories i've ever heard or thought of myself, atheism/not believing in any type of afterlife is the only one that seems absolutely impossible to me.
Infinity.

I read an article on conscience that noted it was universal. So adding to many popular beliefs, you die, you cease, you are but a memory to those around you. "You" are gone. But conscience exists in ALL living things. You're right, nothing can't exist. Think of it like sleeping (died), then waking up and you're in a cradle and you had your first thought. "I think, therefore I am".

All living things associate their life with meaning. It's a part of survival and instinct. This idea has been an aspect of us throughout history. It could be false. You were born into this world as a result of nature, created from particle matter that built your brain, the construct of your thought. And then you became. But use the word "you" loosely, because you're a small part of you.

Something interesting I watched on TED talks-- The brain's neurons are said to realize decisions after they were made, so, technically free will is an illusion.


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post #47 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:50 PM
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My question is how can "the big bang" happen and create everything as complex as we see now, I just don't see it.
I strongly believe that the big bang theory is much more believable than the creation theory. Is there any concrete evidence that proves God created Earth? No. Is there proof that proves the big bang/evolution theory? Yes. How do Polar Bears survive in the Arctic while other bears hibernate during the winter? Why is the cave-dwelling Blind Salamander in fact blind, while other salamanders are not? Why do birds of the same species have different shaped beaks? Because each species has spent their entire existence adapting to their environment so they can survive.
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post #48 of 190 Old April 16th, 2012, 11:55 PM
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I believe the same thing but dont want to cuz its depressing as hell imo.
It really is. It fucking sucks. I want to believe there is an afterlife, but I don't see how it's possible. I'm not going to live my life following a book that was transcribed and translated multiple times over the passed 1800 years.
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post #49 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 12:00 AM
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It really is. It fucking sucks. I want to believe there is an afterlife, but I don't see how it's possible. I'm not going to live my life following a book that was transcribed and translated multiple times over the passed 1800 years.
An afterlife, or at least a better life would do greatly. Humanity is so fucked up. A majority of us have it good, but look at 3rd world countries, or our history of war and genocide. We are far from perfect in this universe. This is one of the reasons I just can't believe in a creator.


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post #50 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 12:02 AM
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I read an article on conscience that noted it was universal. So adding to many popular beliefs, you die, you cease, you are but a memory to those around you. "You" are gone. But conscience exists in ALL living things. You're right, nothing can't exist. Think of it like sleeping (died), then waking up and you're in a cradle and you had your first thought. "I think, therefore I am".
Isn't that contradictory? Conscience exists in all living things, but when you're dead, you're not living, therefore you have no conscience. Your body still exists, but your mind does not.
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post #51 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 12:04 AM
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I think if their is a god that he or she or it doesn't take a role in our lives. It created us and wishes the best but their is just too much hurt and pain and suffering in the world for me to think anyone could have the option to heal it and just stand idly by. Especially someone who is supposed to have unending love for people as a whole. I also believe in evolution for sure. My family is nondenominational Christians and believe that you only go to heaven if you are on their set path. I told my grandma I don't see god sending Buddhists to hell or monks that devote their whole lives or Muslims that pray multiple times a day while my family goes to church once a week. I quit going with them. It was just against my moral character to watch them judge and talk down to people. So I'm not sure what I am or if I'm anything really. I don't know where we go when we die. I'd like to think its somewhere fantastic to meet our loved ones again and live out eternity but I feel like its nowhere. Death is death. Circle of life shit. We die we make grass animals eat the grass and other animals eat those animals. You know.


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post #52 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 12:06 AM
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An afterlife, or at least a better life would do greatly. Humanity is so fucked up. A majority of us have it good, but look at 3rd world countries, or our history of war and genocide. We are far from perfect in this universe. This is one of the reasons I just can't believe in a creator.
Humanity is fucked up. Even those that have good life's still find something to complain about, I know I do. My problems are nothing compared to what's going on in this world.
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post #53 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 12:12 AM
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I think if their is a god that he or she or it doesn't take a role in our lives. It created us and wishes the best but their is just too much hurt and pain and suffering in the world for me to think anyone could have the option to heal it and just stand idly by. Especially someone who is supposed to have unending love for people as a whole. I also believe in evolution for sure. My family is nondenominational Christians and believe that you only go to heaven if you are on their set path. I told my grandma I don't see god sending Buddhists to hell or monks that devote their whole lives or Muslims that pray multiple times a day while my family goes to church once a week. I quit going with them. It was just against my moral character to watch them judge and talk down to people. So I'm not sure what I am or if I'm anything really. I don't know where we go when we die. I'd like to think its somewhere fantastic to meet our loved ones again and live out eternity but I feel like its nowhere. Death is death. Circle of life shit. We die we make grass animals eat the grass and other animals eat those animals. You know.


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Very well said. It's so hypocritical when that certain group of Christians pass judgment on those that are different or what social norms consider "bad" while God has said that only he can judge man.

I don't care if you're a Christian, Buddhist, Atheist, or an Agnostic, your actions make you who you are and I will judge you by them, not your religion.
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post #54 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 12:19 AM
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Very well said. It's so hypocritical when that certain group of Christians pass judgment on those that are different or what social norms consider "bad" while God has said that only he can judge man.

I don't care if you're a Christian, Buddhist, Atheist, or an Agnostic, your actions make you who you are and I will judge you by them, not your religion.
My friend told me a joke once. You can plug in any hypocritical colt like church into it. I tell it how I do because of my family.

So st Peter is welcoming a Baptist, a muslim, and a Jew into heaven. He takes them on a tour and their last stop off in the distance they see a large mansion not much different from the rest but it's enclosed in a huge concrete fence. They look puzzled and ask Peter what it is. He tells them, "that's where the nondenominational Christians stay. They think they are the only ones here"

While I think it's funny it's also sad. I mean if it was true they would miss out on so much beauty because they are so close minded. I'd rather be loving and excepting of everyone and not have to worry or hate. It's the difference between living your life looking at a wall or seeing all the beautiful things around you.


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post #55 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 01:30 AM
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Infinity.

I read an article on conscience that noted it was universal. So adding to many popular beliefs, you die, you cease, you are but a memory to those around you. "You" are gone. But conscience exists in ALL living things. You're right, nothing can't exist. Think of it like sleeping (died), then waking up and you're in a cradle and you had your first thought. "I think, therefore I am".

All living things associate their life with meaning. It's a part of survival and instinct. This idea has been an aspect of us throughout history. It could be false. You were born into this world as a result of nature, created from particle matter that built your brain, the construct of your thought. And then you became. But use the word "you" loosely, because you're a small part of you.

Something interesting I watched on TED talks-- The brain's neurons are said to realize decisions after they were made, so, technically free will is an illusion.
do you have a link to that article? as far as i know, science has proven that only human beings have self consciousness.

and i understand what you're saying about being created from matter that physically built your body and brain, but there's more to life than just physical existence. human beings are the only creatures with spirituality, as well. it comes with the self conciousness - the understanding that we are what we are, right here, right now. i believe that the physical aspect of our beings are a type of infrastructure to support the spiritual world. think of it like you're using the internet. you can do anything on the internet. it's an entire world in front of you, but it's not physically there, yet a physical infrastructure (hardware) is what keeps it running.

that's part of one theory i came up with a long time ago, which basically compares life to the internet. let me explain.

think of this forum as a big room. we each come here to share our thoughts, but to you, i'm only BWAL. you see the words i type and you have a general sense of my persona, but you've never met me, so you don't know all the details of my real-life being.

narrow your mind a bit for a second and imagine the world of the internet being the only thing that exists. you can "travel" to different places, you can "meet" different people, yet it's only a watered down version of what is actually real. you can watch burnout videos on youtube, but you can't smell the smoke. you can cyber with a girl, but you're still not experiencing the pleasure of actually having sex with her.

that "less than real" world (the internet) is supported by physical hardware. you know, actual wires connected to other shit. but you can't get on the internet without a device capable of doing so (implying our physical beings are capable of experiencing spirituality due to the technicality of physics).

so assuming they can be compared, that could mean that we're living in a slightly watered down world of what is real. then you may ask "what is REALLY real?" well, i would imagine that it would be something like the guy talked about in the video mr. burton posted. emotions are deeper, colors are more vibrant, etc.

if that holds true, strictly physically speaking, due to the laws of nature in the three dimensional "real" world, we wouldn't have bodies like we do now, it would be impossible, because the variables don't exist for us to form that way, so we'd exist in another way, most likely what we now consider to be "strictly spiritual"

so going back to what i was saying before, when i talk on this forum, if i express emotion, that's my physical self communicating my real life emotions to my online entity. what you're feeling in the "above" life may be being relayed down to your current physical self by means of physical catalysts such as dopamine and seratonin being released in the brain, for example, much like the way a computer program's coding is the "(less than) physical catalyst" that allows the program to complete its task at hand.

now some bright minds invented the whole concept that we refer to as the internet. does that mean that something created our "reality?"

for simplicity, let's say bill gates invented the internet and everything computer related. if i'm having internet problems, i can physically go and talk to bill gates, and he can give me knowledge that i previously didn't have about computers or the internet. i can then take that given knowledge and apply it my computer usage, and maybe do things that most other casual computer users don't know how to do.

but still, i'm just a person, and bill gates is just a person. he'd just be a person who invented the whole sub world of the internet. would that mean that our "higher" selves are really on the same level as god, and all we have to do is find him spiritually to be able to have what would be the equivalent of "badass hacks" in our real world? things like enlightenment maybe?

i don't know if any of this even makes any sense at all, but i'm tired, and only half assedly remember that theory. i wrote down all the details when i first thought it up but i don't know what i did with it.




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I strongly believe that the big bang theory is much more believable than the creation theory. Is there any concrete evidence that proves God created Earth? No. Is there proof that proves the big bang/evolution theory? Yes. How do Polar Bears survive in the Arctic while other bears hibernate during the winter? Why is the cave-dwelling Blind Salamander in fact blind, while other salamanders are not? Why do birds of the same species have different shaped beaks? Because each species has spent their entire existence adapting to their environment so they can survive.
science can coexist in a world with sprituality, god, an afterlife, etc. i believe in the big bang, too. if anything, that whole concept alone proves the existence of a higher being. going by the big bang theory, a densely compressed ball of matter exploded. not only did it explode like a normal explosion, but it kept expanding at a faster and faster rate. the universe is growing faster now than it did a billion years ago.

but since time and space is relative, if the big bang theory is true, this little compressed ball of matter technically didn't exist in the beginning, since there was no time and there was no space. things don't just come into existence, as per laws of nature. the mere existence of our universe is theoretically impossible.

now i think that when people say "god" created the earth, they're correct in the sense that he or it provided the catalyst for it to form and exist and eventually harbor life, but they're thinking on way too small of a scale.

self consciousness shouldn't exist either. why does it exist? there is no law of nature to apply to explain self consciousness. that, to me, would also prove that there is a higher being, or form, or "god" or what have you.

the rest of the things you mentioned are all evolutionary traits. those things can be used to disprove the hardcore religious believers, but still, evolution is a real, natural thing. it's the laws of nature at work. that doesn't disprove god, just things that are mentioned in some religious texts

i've been drinking a little and what i'm trying to say makes sense in my mind, but sorry if it's just a bunch of jumbled bullshit lol

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post #56 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 02:13 AM
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Cool theory Bwal, it does make sense...coming from someone who actually had to question all this because of where you were once. Very interesting.

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post #57 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 02:28 AM
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do you have a link to that article? as far as i know, science has proven that only human beings have self consciousness.

and i understand what you're saying about being created from matter that physically built your body and brain, but there's more to life than just physical existence. human beings are the only creatures with spirituality, as well. it comes with the self conciousness - the understanding that we are what we are, right here, right now. i believe that the physical aspect of our beings are a type of infrastructure to support the spiritual world. think of it like you're using the internet. you can do anything on the internet. it's an entire world in front of you, but it's not physically there, yet a physical infrastructure (hardware) is what keeps it running.

that's part of one theory i came up with a long time ago, which basically compares life to the internet. let me explain.

think of this forum as a big room. we each come here to share our thoughts, but to you, i'm only BWAL. you see the words i type and you have a general sense of my persona, but you've never met me, so you don't know all the details of my real-life being.

narrow your mind a bit for a second and imagine the world of the internet being the only thing that exists. you can "travel" to different places, you can "meet" different people, yet it's only a watered down version of what is actually real. you can watch burnout videos on youtube, but you can't smell the smoke. you can cyber with a girl, but you're still not experiencing the pleasure of actually having sex with her.

that "less than real" world (the internet) is supported by physical hardware. you know, actual wires connected to other shit. but you can't get on the internet without a device capable of doing so (implying our physical beings are capable of experiencing spirituality due to the technicality of physics).

so assuming they can be compared, that could mean that we're living in a slightly watered down world of what is real. then you may ask "what is REALLY real?" well, i would imagine that it would be something like the guy talked about in the video mr. burton posted. emotions are deeper, colors are more vibrant, etc.

if that holds true, strictly physically speaking, due to the laws of nature in the three dimensional "real" world, we wouldn't have bodies like we do now, it would be impossible, because the variables don't exist for us to form that way, so we'd exist in another way, most likely what we now consider to be "strictly spiritual"

so going back to what i was saying before, when i talk on this forum, if i express emotion, that's my physical self communicating my real life emotions to my online entity. what you're feeling in the "above" life may be being relayed down to your current physical self by means of physical catalysts such as dopamine and seratonin being released in the brain, for example, much like the way a computer program's coding is the "(less than) physical catalyst" that allows the program to complete its task at hand.

now some bright minds invented the whole concept that we refer to as the internet. does that mean that something created our "reality?"

for simplicity, let's say bill gates invented the internet and everything computer related. if i'm having internet problems, i can physically go and talk to bill gates, and he can give me knowledge that i previously didn't have about computers or the internet. i can then take that given knowledge and apply it my computer usage, and maybe do things that most other casual computer users don't know how to do.

but still, i'm just a person, and bill gates is just a person. he'd just be a person who invented the whole sub world of the internet. would that mean that our "higher" selves are really on the same level as god, and all we have to do is find him spiritually to be able to have what would be the equivalent of "badass hacks" in our real world? things like enlightenment maybe?

i don't know if any of this even makes any sense at all, but i'm tired, and only half assedly remember that theory. i wrote down all the details when i first thought it up but i don't know what i did with it.

I read what you wrote and it's a great theory but what's your idea of "spirituality"?

God. If god is angry he does something. How can he if he's an omnipotent? As we know today, emotions are just chemical reactions in our foreheads. These tend to follow strict casual chains. Does that mean God is affected by chemical reactions? Wouldn't that annihilate his omnipotence? If God had emotions he doesn't like, couldn't he just annihilate them?

And even if you say God wants humans to do good, wouldn't you imply that God can "want"? Want is a desire, with the goal of achieving something to be happy or gain positive emotions. God has emotions. Emotio is a latin term for something that drives us to act. If he is omnipotent, couldn't he just create positive emotions from out of nowhere? As it seems, God has to do something to get positive emotions. Does that mean God can be affected? Or otherwise, if God has emotions, wouldn't that deny the assumption that God has free will? Does that mean God is just controlled by natural laws that he can't influence? Consider that.

This attenuates to spirituality-- if we exist in a different dimension or a spiritual level, are we not still controlled and bound by the laws of nature?

How do you explain animals also? Would you go so far as to say your pets don't have a conscious? But that wasn't the point. Humans will exist passed your death, so human conscience will live on. To say humans are special and different from anything else is to be quoting religion. So as long as life exists capable of consciousness, there will exist the feeling of "being", but not respective to anyone or certain thing or an identity of self.


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post #58 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 03:43 AM
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I read what you wrote and it's a great theory but what's your idea of "spirituality"?

God. If god is angry he does something. How can he if he's an omnipotent? As we know today, emotions are just chemical reactions in our foreheads. These tend to follow strict casual chains. Does that mean God is affected by chemical reactions? Wouldn't that annihilate his omnipotence? If God had emotions he doesn't like, couldn't he just annihilate them?

And even if you say God wants humans to do good, wouldn't you imply that God can "want"? Want is a desire, with the goal of achieving something to be happy or gain positive emotions. God has emotions. Emotio is a latin term for something that drives us to act. If he is omnipotent, couldn't he just create positive emotions from out of nowhere? As it seems, God has to do something to get positive emotions. Does that mean God can be affected? Or otherwise, if God has emotions, wouldn't that deny the assumption that God has free will? Does that mean God is just controlled by natural laws that he can't influence? Consider that.

This attenuates to spirituality-- if we exist in a different dimension or a spiritual level, are we not still controlled and bound by the laws of nature?

How do you explain animals also? Would you go so far as to say your pets don't have a conscious? But that wasn't the point. Humans will exist passed your death, so human conscience will live on. To say humans are special and different from anything else is to be quoting religion. So as long as life exists capable of consciousness, there will exist the feeling of "being", but not respective to anyone or certain thing or an identity of self.
conversations like this are hard to have because i don't feel like my vocabulary is big enough for me to effectively share my thoughts lol

my reference to us being equal to god on a spiritual plane wasn't intended to be tied together with the rest of the theory, more of just a "well, if that's true, then what if..." type of thing

but i don't believe in god in the way that you talk about him. in my own personal opinion, it seems to me that you're casting god in too much a humane light, implying that he has emotions like people do, and is almost human-like in his thought process. i don't believe that god has chemical reactions in his brain dictating his mood because i don't believe that god is a physical being in our realm. i don't believe that he has any wants or desires, and i don't even believe that he even generally leans towards the better good of the world. i believe that humans and god are nothing alike, and cannot be compared in any way. i don't think that god is a friend, i think god is more like a force of infinite, and always growing intelligence. don't think of him as a person with a face, think of him as one of those purple lamps that you can see the currents flowing through.

another law of nature that often goes untalked about is universal balance. there is balance in all things in nature. up and down, good and bad, black and white, positive and negative, etc. it's what runs karma. as humans, we generally choose to do good. we don't like the idea of negativity. it distresses us. it feels much better to be good. our emotions can be high or low, but due to the fundamental guidelines that were set forth when this realm was designed, we ended up associating doing positive with positive emotions.

now think on a massive scale, like you're looking at the whole timeline of this whole realm. try to visualize it. if we do positive, we maintain our existence, and we move down that timelime. as we continue following the timeline, we grow. we grow in size, we grow in complexity, and we grow in knowledge. as humans, we crave growth. we want to make more money, learn more, improve our track times. it feels good. it's part of the positive balance.

but what's the opposite of that? taking the negative path. choosing not to grow. we will not continue down that line, we will come to an immediate stop. we will cease to exist. we don't like that. we don't like the thought of dying. not physically, and not ultimately. we want to succeed.

so basically what i'm saying is that we are good because we choose to be, because it's a law put in place to keep us growing. by growing, we help god receive more information to fuel his growing intelligence. i believe that there are other worlds that have laws that are not even fathomable to us due to the fact that they're so bizarre. unlike anything any human mind could ever comprehend. and infinite number of these worlds. i believe that all of those worlds have the single guideline of growth, even if they don't share any other qualities whatsoever. as pieces, or "sparks" of god, our job is to consume knowledge for him. we are all one thing working for the same purpose, which is to help him (us/him/it) grow. we just got lucky because we ended up in a realm with boobies and stuff.

and yeah, i would say that animals are conscious, like medically, but they aren't self conscious. humans are the only creatures on earth with the ability to contemplate all of this. we are the only creatures capable of forming original, complex ideas and creations.

i think that when we die, we all go to the same place, within god. animals provided him with knowledge of this particular planet in this particular realm through their own perspectives, and we do the same. the only difference is we can contemplate it. that's what seemingly makes humans so special here. we were "blessed" with self consciousness. there's no way to know how many creatures in the universe have self consciousness, but relatively speaking (on earth) we're unlike anything else here. we're a fucking spectacular species.

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post #59 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 04:18 AM
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this is maslow's hierarchy. it was intended to only distinguish humans, but if slightly modified, it can kind of explain the differences between humans and animals

Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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post #60 of 190 Old April 17th, 2012, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWAL View Post
this is maslow's hierarchy. it was intended to only distinguish humans, but if slightly modified, it can kind of explain the differences between humans and animals

Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's hard to know this all came from the MM Clubhouse section. I'm glad you posted it; all information provided is very enlightening.

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