Prevent the EPA from Banning Vehicle Modification! - Page 2 - Forums at Modded Mustangs
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post #21 of 35 Old February 10th, 2016, 06:04 PM
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I wonder where the petition was to keep R-22 ac systems and old style smaller water heaters before the epa said nope, you have to change. We have to start using 410a heatpumps because we can't find dry ship(nitrogen) anywhere anymore.
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post #22 of 35 Old February 10th, 2016, 07:48 PM
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post #23 of 35 Old February 10th, 2016, 08:06 PM
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This will change nothing at all, it's already illegal to remove emission equipment from a vehicle. Everyone on this forum with an off road mid pipe committed a crime when they installed it, it doesn't matter if you have state inspections or not.

I still signed the petition though

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post #24 of 35 Old February 10th, 2016, 10:37 PM
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I signed the whitehouse one yesterday and it was at 19,423 now it's at 82,649 lol
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post #25 of 35 Old February 10th, 2016, 11:19 PM
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They did this before. Back during the oil crises of the 70s. Then they discovered that most race cars don't run gasoline. Continue to protest because that is the only way an idiot politician will hear us.

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post #26 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 11:26 AM
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What's funny is that this issue has been brought up every year for eons. I've been seeing it for at least the last 8 years. Why is there such a hubbub about it now?

Oh and by the way, it has always been illegal to modify your car in the manner that they are speaking. Been that way for a long time at least. That is why parts are labeled for off road use anyways. It is not anything new they are just clarifying some of the ambiguities in the wording.


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post #27 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver GT View Post
This will change nothing at all, it's already illegal to remove emission equipment from a vehicle. Everyone on this forum with an off road mid pipe committed a crime when they installed it, it doesn't matter if you have state inspections or not.

I still signed the petition though
It is NOT illegal to remove equipment like that on a DEDICATED race car, even one that started life as a regular registered car for daily transportation.

If you drive on the street, yes it's illegal. If it's only racecar use, not illegal. The law (which you can read on the 24 hour of Lemons website) specifically states that all aftermarket products (not just emissions related) are planned to be illegal. Headers? Illegal. Bigger exhaust piping? Illegal. Refined intake manifold? Illegal. Ported heads? Illegal. Anything not factory stock or intended to be a factory stock replacemnt/made to exact same specifications is thus illegal.

This is why we must sign and fight this.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by 07 Boss View Post
What's funny is that this issue has been brought up every year for eons. I've been seeing it for at least the last 8 years. Why is there such a hubbub about it now?

Oh and by the way, it has always been illegal to modify your car in the manner that they are speaking. Been that way for a long time at least. That is why parts are labeled for off road use anyways. It is not anything new they are just clarifying some of the ambiguities in the wording.
Again, read the law. It isn't just emissions equipment we're talking about, and it's not for vehicles intended to be driven on public roadways. This law, very specifically, makes it illegal to modify any car that was originally intended to be a public road worthy car into a dedicated race car, AND the manufacture of ALL non stock engine related parts.

Thus, 24 hours of lemons would be illegal. Engine swaps would be illegal. This is a much bigger, much more specific wording.

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post #28 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 01:46 PM
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Again, read the law. It isn't just emissions equipment we're talking about, and it's not for vehicles intended to be driven on public roadways. This law, very specifically, makes it illegal to modify any car that was originally intended to be a public road worthy car into a dedicated race car, AND the manufacture of ALL non stock engine related parts.

Thus, 24 hours of lemons would be illegal. Engine swaps would be illegal. This is a much bigger, much more specific wording.
Well put. This isn't anything close to what they were doing before. I don't think we've ever seen verbiage that would make it illegal to build a race car out of a road legal vehicle.
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post #29 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
It is NOT illegal to remove equipment like that on a DEDICATED race car, even one that started life as a regular registered car for daily transportation.

If you drive on the street, yes it's illegal. If it's only racecar use, not illegal. The law (which you can read on the 24 hour of Lemons website) specifically states that all aftermarket products (not just emissions related) are planned to be illegal. Headers? Illegal. Bigger exhaust piping? Illegal. Refined intake manifold? Illegal. Ported heads? Illegal. Anything not factory stock or intended to be a factory stock replacemnt/made to exact same specifications is thus illegal.

This is why we must sign and fight this.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------



Again, read the law. It isn't just emissions equipment we're talking about, and it's not for vehicles intended to be driven on public roadways. This law, very specifically, makes it illegal to modify any car that was originally intended to be a public road worthy car into a dedicated race car, AND the manufacture of ALL non stock engine related parts.

Thus, 24 hours of lemons would be illegal. Engine swaps would be illegal. This is a much bigger, much more specific wording.

I stand corrected as I didn't read the new proposal. I just thought it was the same stuff they talk about every year.
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post #30 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver GT View Post
This will change nothing at all, it's already illegal to remove emission equipment from a vehicle. Everyone on this forum with an off road mid pipe committed a crime when they installed it, it doesn't matter if you have state inspections or not.

I still signed the petition though
It's only illegal if you drive your car on the streets. If your car isn't driven on the street and is a "racecar" then it's legal.

The way I see it, the basics of this law is to remove the sales of catless midpipes/downpipes. Right now they sell them as off road use only to racecars. But the way the law states it would be illegal to turn your production car into a racecar. Thus, it would be illegal to run a catless midpipe because your car cannot be off road use only. So they're going to make it illegal to sell catless pipes for production cars. It's just a way for the federal government to enforce the emissions they want when states won't do it for them (through vehicle inspections).

Just another power grab by the government under the ever growing arm of the EPA

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Again, read the law. It isn't just emissions equipment we're talking about, and it's not for vehicles intended to be driven on public roadways. This law, very specifically, makes it illegal to modify any car that was originally intended to be a public road worthy car into a dedicated race car, AND the manufacture of ALL non stock engine related parts.

Thus, 24 hours of lemons would be illegal. Engine swaps would be illegal. This is a much bigger, much more specific wording.
Do you know where at in the proposal it talks about any modifications being illegal? I don't doubt what you're saying but everything I've been reading from article (not the actual proposal) talks about emissions. Right now I don't have the time to go through the 629 pages to find the real truth. If you could slim down my reading to less than 20 pages I would be able to read it.

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Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom View Post
It's only illegal if you drive your car on the streets. If your car isn't driven on the street and is a "racecar" then it's legal.

The way I see it, the basics of this law is to remove the sales of catless midpipes/downpipes. Right now they sell them as off road use only to racecars. But the way the law states it would be illegal to turn your production car into a racecar. Thus, it would be illegal to run a catless midpipe because your car cannot be off road use only. So they're going to make it illegal to sell catless pipes for production cars. It's just a way for the federal government to enforce the emissions they want when states won't do it for them (through vehicle inspections).

Just another power grab by the government under the ever growing arm of the EPA

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------



Do you know where at in the proposal it talks about any modifications being illegal? I don't doubt what you're saying but everything I've been reading from article (not the actual proposal) talks about emissions. Right now I don't have the time to go through the 629 pages to find the real truth. If you could slim down my reading to less than 20 pages I would be able to read it.
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/images/EPA-Memo.pdf

Quote:
3. EPA’s Proposed Changes: Bring Competition Motor Vehicle Emissions Within the
CAA and thus EPA Control
On Monday, July 13, 2015, the EPA published its proposed rules7
entitled “Greenhouse Gas
Emissions and Fuel efficiency Standards for Medium- and Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicles –
Phase 2.” The stated purpose of the proposed rules is “to establish a comprehensive national
program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and fuel consumption for new on-road heavy-duty
vehicles, particularly for tractor-trailers, heavy-duty pickups and vans, and vocational vehicles
(such as farm tractors).” 8 The EPA intends to publish the final rule in July 2016.
The EPA9
recognizes that competition vehicle emissions do not fall squarely within the
purview of the CAA (as amended), and seeks to eliminate that exclusion beginning in 2018. As
the EPA states in the explanatory notes for “Miscellaneous EPA Amendments,”
EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does
not allow any person to disable, remove, or render inoperative (i.e., tamper with)
emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition.10 An
existing provision in 40 CFR 1068.235 provides an exemption for nonroad
engines converted for competition use. This provision reflects the explicit
exclusion of engines used solely for competition from the CAA definition of
“nonroad engine.” The proposed amendment clarifies that this part 1068
exemption does not apply for motor vehicles.
6 42 U.S.C. §7550 (11) (2015) (“nonroad vehicle”); 42 U.S.C. §7550 (10) (2015) (“nonroad engine”). 7
Rules and regulations derive their legal authority from the original law passed by Congress. The CAA, as
amended, is a law passed by Congress in the way that we all remember from Schoolhouse Rock and/or high school
civics class. Rules and regulations promulgated by Federal agencies are published in the Code of Federal
Regulations (“CFR”) for the purpose of administering the laws enacted by Congress. Once the final rule is written
by the Federal agency and published in the CFR, it has the full weight and effect of a law of the United States. A
good tutorial on this process can be found at https://www.archives.gov/federal-reg...torial_070.pdf 8
80 Fed. Reg. 40138 (2015).
9
More precisely, the proposed changes discussed herein to the CFR are jointly proposed by the EPA and the
NHTSA, as both have jurisdiction over rules regarding emissions and fuel consumption. Because the proposed rule
refers to both entities simply as the EPA, this memorandum will do so also. 10 The EPA’s use here of “clarify” seems Orwellian at best.
Jay Lamm
February 9, 2016
Page 4
Given the reference to various sections of the CFR, the provision above may benefit from
further explanation. The reference in the first sentence to 40 C.F.R. § 1037.601(a)(3) would
require that those who modify heavy-duty vehicles for competition use cannot tamper with
emissions controls. 11,12 While troublesome for some autosport enthusiasts of heavy-duty
vehicles and those who like to “roll coal” on their competition brodozers, it is likely that alone,
this would not be problematic for most motorsport activities.
However, the second sentence reveals the ultimate intent of the EPA to bring competition
motor vehicles – in particular, light-duty vehicles and light-duty trucks – within its regulatory
authority. As the EPA notes, 40 C.F.R. § 1068.235 provides an express exemption from the CAA
for nonroad engines in competition use13, but not for street vehicles modified for use solely in
competition. The EPA repeatedly proposes to amend various sections of the CFR to clarify that
the 1068.235 exception for nonroad engines in competition use does not apply to competition
motor vehicles. Competition motor vehicles, which were necessarily once motor vehicles with
certified emissions control systems, can never acquire nonroad status in the EPA’s scheme.
The EPA’s approach reaches its zenith in two different sections of the proposed rule. 40 CFR
86.1854-12(b)(5)14 states that
Certified motor vehicles15 and motor vehicle engines and their emission control
devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely
for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines; anyone modifying
a certified motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any reason is subject to the
tampering and defeat device prohibitions of paragraph (a)(3) of this section and
42 USC 7522(a)(3).
The proposed rule is more draconian in 40 CFR 1068.10116, “What general actions does this
regulation prohibit?” The answer is “don’t modify your engine, ever.” It bans:
11 40 C.F.R. § 1037 is the section that contains the administrative rules for “Control of Emissions from Heavy-Duty
Motor Vehicles.” 12 Heavy-duty vehicles are generally defined as exceeding 8,500 pounds GVWR or having a curb weight in excess
of 6,000 pounds or a basic vehicle frontal area in excess of 45 square feet.
13 Racing snowmobiles, racing dirt bikes, racing ATV’s, etc. 14 40 C.F.R. § 86 is the section that contains the administrative rules for “Control of Emissions from New and InUse
Highway Vehicles and Engines.”
15 A certified motor vehicle or engine/emissions system is a vehicle or system that has passed the EPA testing and
has received a certificate of conformity from the EPA Administrator – essentially every production car sold in the
U.S.
16 40 C.F.R. § 1068 is the section that contains the administrative rules for “General Compliance Provisions for
Highway, Stationary, and Nonroad Programs” The proposed rule also amends 40 C.F.R. § 1068.1 so that Part 1068
applies to light-duty vehicles and light-duty trucks (“vehicles we regulate under 40 CFR Part 86, subpart S….”), 80
Fed. Reg. 40714 (2015) (to be codified as 40 C.F.R. § 1068.1(a)(1)).
Jay Lamm
February 9, 2016
Page 5
• Knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design
installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations after
such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. Violation of same by a
manufacturer or dealer comes with a civil penalty of $37,500 for each engine
or piece of equipment in violation; violation by anyone else may be assessed a
civil penalty of up to $3,750 per engine or piece of equipment;17
• Knowingly manufacturing, selling, offering to sell, or installing any
component that bypasses, impairs, defeats, or disables the control of emissions
of any regulated pollutant. Violation of same may draw a civil penalty of up to
$3,750 for each component in violation;
18
• Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines must remain in their
certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they
become nonroad vehicles or engines; anyone modifying a certified motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any reason is subject to the tampering and
defeat device prohibitions of 1068.101(b): a civil penalty of $37,500 may be
subjected for each engine or piece of equipment in violation by a
manufacturer or dealer; violation by anyone else may be assessed a civil
penalty of up to $3,750 per engine or piece of equipment;
19
• Importation of uncertified engines or equipment is prohibited if it is defined to
be “new.” The definition of “new” is broad for imported engines and
equipment; uncertified equipment, including used engines and equipment, will
generally be considered to be “new;” violators are subject to the
manufacturer/dealer penalty of $37,500 for each piece of equipment in
violation.20
Perhaps most troubling is the provision in 40 CFR 1068.101(a) that states that it is prohibited
to sell, offer for sale, import, or introduce or deliver into commerce in the US any new engine or
equipment after emissions standards take effect for the engine or equipment unless it is covered
by a valid certificate of conformity for the model year and has the required label or tag.
21
Although another note indicates that the heavy-duty truck and engine categories would not begin
until 2021,22 this provision could be interpreted to indicate that the proposed rule be applied to
any engine/equipment that was certified prior to the effective date of the rule – thus prohibiting
modification to any motor vehicle engine in competition that was ever certified for use by the
EPA – essentially every engine system sold in the US since the early 70’s.
Very, very heavy overreach. Even if you plan to race your car that is 20 years old, out of warranty, and not driven on a street ever, you cannot modify it, period. It has to remain in it's original state.

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post #32 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 09:49 PM
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Very, very heavy overreach. Even if you plan to race your car that is 20 years old, out of warranty, and not driven on a street ever, you cannot modify it, period. It has to remain in it's original state.
I agree, very much an over reach. But I still don't see the part about no modifications. I see no modifications in terms of emissions controls. What am I missing?

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post #33 of 35 Old February 11th, 2016, 10:52 PM
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I agree, very much an over reach. But I still don't see the part about no modifications. I see no modifications in terms of emissions controls. What am I missing?
It states the you can't modify a motor even if it is for competition or off road useoy and never used on the street. The engine must stay in its original configuration. Don't know how much clearer that is.


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post #34 of 35 Old February 12th, 2016, 10:41 AM
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It states the you can't modify a motor even if it is for competition or off road useoy and never used on the street. The engine must stay in its original configuration. Don't know how much clearer that is.
Because right before that it states, "the provisions of 40 CFR 1068.235 that allow for modifying certified vehicles and engines......"

So it's pretty clear that there are some allowances to modify certified vehicles and engines. I haven't had time to look what those allowances are, I was hoping you had looked at that section.

As you can see it's pretty unclear when you start reading the entire thing. If you take a single paragraph out of context it seems crystal clear. But on context, it's not so clear. Another thing that makes it unclear is it doesn't simply state a car or motor, it states certified car. So again, the definition of certified matters.

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Originally Posted by 03SonicBoom View Post
Because right before that it states, "the provisions of 40 CFR 1068.235 that allow for modifying certified vehicles and engines......"

So it's pretty clear that there are some allowances to modify certified vehicles and engines. I haven't had time to look what those allowances are, I was hoping you had looked at that section.

As you can see it's pretty unclear when you start reading the entire thing. If you take a single paragraph out of context it seems crystal clear. But on context, it's not so clear. Another thing that makes it unclear is it doesn't simply state a car or motor, it states certified car. So again, the definition of certified matters.
The italics are current law, provided by the author at 24hoursoflemons.com to illustrate the dramatic difference. The law is in line after that, proposing to change it. Never mind that the EPA has no authority to make law, only Congress does, but they are specifically stating that Engine AND Emissions equipment cannot be changed if this goes into effect.

I'll itemize it for you...
Knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design
installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations after
such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser. Violation of same by a
manufacturer or dealer comes with a civil penalty of $37,500 for each engine
or piece of equipment in violation; violation by anyone else may be assessed a
civil penalty of up to $3,750 per engine or piece of equipment
;17
Knowingly manufacturing, selling, offering to sell, or installing any
component that bypasses, impairs, defeats, or disables the control of emissions
of any regulated pollutant. Violation of same may draw a civil penalty of up to
$3,750 for each component in violation
;

Notice above that the Engine CAN NOT be modified by the portion underlined, and Emissions equipment specifically is in it's own section in italics.
Thus, if an engine is originally compliant, it can't have anything changed. no bigger valves, no bigger mass air, nothing.

86.1854-12(b)(5)14 states that
Certified motor vehicles15 and motor vehicle engines and their emission control
devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely
for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines
; anyone modifying
a certified motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any reason is subject to the
tampering and defeat device prohibitions of paragraph (a)(3) of this section and
42 USC 7522(a)(3).
Notice above, again if you take a car off the road and try to turn it into a competition only vehicle, it has to be in original equipment form for it's entire existence.

This "law" will single handedly kill all car modification. By considering the engine and emissions as permanently married together, and by using very clear, very specific wording preventing any question that it is to remain as manufactured for eternity, it's a big, big deal.

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