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  Topic Review (Newest First)
February 14th, 2018 10:03 PM
Eagle2000GT The temperature in Ohio is about the same as in Indiana. I rarely let my car sit and idle. I use full-synthetic oil which is less honey like so it flows sooner than conventional oil. I also use 0wXX oil which has additives allowing it to flow even sooner. At 100*F the oil in the motor is still too thick to flow. It cannot provide the hydrodynamic barrier needed to protect the crank bearings. They are being protected by the hydrostatic barrier left behind when oil clings to the parts. Full-synthetic oil is also known for clinging to parts better than conventional oil.

On all my vehicles I start the car and drive off. I live in the country. After 3 miles the thermostat is still closed but the water going through the heater is providing some heat. After 6 miles the thermostat is open and the water temperature is at normal operating temperature. The only time I let the car sit and idle is if I cannot see out of the windshield because of frost.

I have a friend who lives in town who always warms up his cars. A couple of weeks ago it drove off while he was sitting at his kitchen table drinking coffee. The guy that stole it was driving recklessly. The thief caught the eye of the police and led them on a high speed chase wrecking my friend's truck three times. It finally stopped running and he was arrested. If you live in a city there are risks associated with leaving a car running.

ProCharger says to not run the motor over 2500 rpm until the oil is completely warmed up. If you do that your motor will be fine without letting it warm up before driving. The cars my wife and I drive the most have 240,000 and 208,000 miles on them. Neither use excessive oil. Neither show any signs of excessive wear.

I have used block heaters but that in South Dakota. The engines simply wouldn't crank over if you didn't.
February 14th, 2018 06:11 PM
socialist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Who said I was offended? Don't know who pissed in your oatmeal this morning, but it wasn't me. I'm not butthurt. Don't get butthurt yourself.
You didn't know 69fastback is actually Bear Grylls?

February 14th, 2018 05:38 PM
69fastback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Who said I was offended? Don't know who pissed in your oatmeal this morning, but it wasn't me. I'm not butthurt. Don't get butthurt yourself.
Hahahah nobody here can ever offend me. Statements that start with ďlook man,Ē and end with something Iíve already said, definitely shows some frustrations, but cool story anyways. I give you a C+ at best for trying to play it off.
February 14th, 2018 05:16 PM
Woodman
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69fastback View Post
So you can share your information and opinion, but I can't share mine without you taking some sort of offense? Maybe you should stay in the political section where that is the norm. I basically said the same thing several posts back, when I said we are really splitting hairs, and nobody will ever see a measurable difference.
Who said I was offended? Don't know who pissed in your oatmeal this morning, but it wasn't me. I'm not butthurt. Don't get butthurt yourself.
February 14th, 2018 02:41 PM
69fastback Now that we've covered all that.......


OP, buy a block heater. Problem solved.
February 14th, 2018 02:24 PM
Austin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69fastback View Post
Absolutely irellevant. 1000 psi spring pressures over the nose, with no oil going through the lifter, therefore the cam relys completely on splash, is very hard on roller lifters. Not the same with any hydraulic valvetrain. Speaking of which, why did this start with washing down cylinders, and now we are talking about it being hard on valvetrain, just because you heard about the 5.7 cam/lifter failures?




It is necessary. Metal on metal parts like to be the same temp, but the absolute most important thing is that I'm comfortable when I get in. As I said, when my heated seat and steering wheel are all warmed up when I get in, but the air around them is cold, it just feels weird. It's rubs me the wrong way, like when the fluid around a cylinder is cold, but the inside of the cylinder is warm, the parts get rubbed the wrong way. I'm not worried about transmissions. Lifetime warranty = free until 60K and then $100/each for the Ram, and the oreillys brand fluid, with a transbrake and 5000 stall in the Mustang does just fine.
Because you asked if anyone had ever seen idle related issues, and that was a situation, even though it doesn't really apply to street engines. You just correlated it with the lifters/rockers on the 5.7 because I had brought that up as a side note for a problem that could potentially point at extended intervals with conventional oil.

And yes, that was part of the concern brought up earlier in this thread. You are running the engine for twice as long trying to bring it up to temperature.

Ultimately at the end of the day we could go back and forth but there is no real way to know. There is no concrete evidence that idling is bad for the engine (unless in severe cases like police departments or taxis), and there is no evidence that driving a car that's cold increases wear, especially considering how 95% of drivers do it and warn out engines aren't a problem.
February 14th, 2018 12:53 PM
69fastback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin View Post
You could easily ask the same question about engines that are driven lightly from a cold start and never find one with accelerated wear.
I'm pretty sure I've said that at least twice now.
Quote:

Also, my buddy's dad, same one who runs the shop and my uncles won't idle their race engines. But that's more of an issue of a solid roller as they can wipe cams, doesn't really apply to street engines.
Absolutely irellevant. 1000 psi spring pressures over the nose, with no oil going through the lifter, therefore the cam relys completely on splash, is very hard on roller lifters. Not the same with any hydraulic valvetrain. Speaking of which, why did this start with washing down cylinders, and now we are talking about it being hard on valvetrain, just because you heard about the 5.7 cam/lifter failures?


Quote:
From my point of view, on a gas street engine it's not really about if it's going to hurt it. It's about if it's necessary, which I don't believe it is. If it does actually increase wear from extra time on the engine, you probably wouldn't notice. You'll be on your 57th transmission by then anyway.
It is necessary. Metal on metal parts like to be the same temp, but the absolute most important thing is that I'm comfortable when I get in. As I said, when my heated seat and steering wheel are all warmed up when I get in, but the air around them is cold, it just feels weird. It's rubs me the wrong way, like when the fluid around a cylinder is cold, but the inside of the cylinder is warm, the parts get rubbed the wrong way. I'm not worried about transmissions. Lifetime warranty = free until 60K and then $100/each for the Ram, and the oreillys brand fluid, with a transbrake and 5000 stall in the Mustang does just fine.
February 14th, 2018 12:40 PM
Austin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69fastback View Post
Never heard of any rocker failures, but lots of cam and lifter failures, mostly around the 2011 mark, and plenty of documented cases, no matter what oil people are running, be it conventional, or synthetic. And you will also see a lifter design change, and Chrysler relating the damage to the style of lifter they were using for the MDS.

Warming up your engine at idle will never be bad. Just wonít. Loading a cold engine can be.


Show of hands here, for real world results. Who here has damaged a engine, due to letting it warm up at idle. Letís see them.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

Iíll even take another step here. The 408 in my car spent more time idling than going down the road. Lol. That thing would die if you applied any load at all, before itíd been running for 5 minutes. I tore that engine down, and the cylinders looked like they did when we assembled it, and the bearings were perfect. Can you please point me in the direction of the damaged, and/or worn parts, that the excessive idling was supposed to cause, so I can inspect them. I still have the whole thing disassembled and in a crate. I want to see this stuff in the real world, and this engine would be a perfect example. It literally spent hours per week idling.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------

Oh and by god! It did it with conventional oil too!
You could easily ask the same question about engines that are driven lightly from a cold start and never find one with accelerated wear. This is especially relevant when you consider just how many Corollas are out there with 200k+ miles driven by females who go from starting the car to full throttle within 10 seconds.

Accelerating wear is about the worst idling a street engine could ever do, which likely wouldn't be much and oil dilution. I recall this was a problem back in my diesel days with some guys who would idle their trucks for a LONG time without high idle. It would wet sack and they would start to pump white smoke out the exhaust. Big diesels do this too. They lose all their heat and they get incomplete combustion.

Also, my buddy's dad, same one who runs the shop and my uncles won't idle their race engines. But that's more of an issue of a solid roller as they can wipe cams, doesn't really apply to street engines.

From my point of view, on a gas street engine it's not really about if it's going to hurt it. It's about if it's necessary, which I don't believe it is. If it does actually increase wear from extra time on the engine, you probably wouldn't notice. You'll be on your 57th transmission by then anyway.
February 14th, 2018 12:23 PM
69fastback Never heard of any rocker failures, but lots of cam and lifter failures, mostly around the 2011 mark, and plenty of documented cases, no matter what oil people are running, be it conventional, or synthetic. And you will also see a lifter design change, and Chrysler relating the damage to the style of lifter they were using for the MDS.

Warming up your engine at idle will never be bad. Just won’t. Loading a cold engine can be.


Show of hands here, for real world results. Who here has damaged a engine, due to letting it warm up at idle. Let’s see them.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

I’ll even take another step here. The 408 in my car spent more time idling than going down the road. Lol. That thing would die if you applied any load at all, before it’d been running for 5 minutes. I tore that engine down, and the cylinders looked like they did when we assembled it, and the bearings were perfect. Can you please point me in the direction of the damaged, and/or worn parts, that the excessive idling was supposed to cause, so I can inspect them. I still have the whole thing disassembled and in a crate. I want to see this stuff in the real world, and this engine would be a perfect example. It literally spent hours per week idling.

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------

Oh and by god! It did it with conventional oil too!
February 14th, 2018 12:02 PM
Austin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69fastback View Post

Hereís a question. How much of a load does the manufacturer say I can put on a cold engine? And what would they like me to use to measure the load?

Oh, and I ask this as my truck is outside running, waiting to take the kids to school. Iím killing it! Ahhhhhh. Nah, Iím really not. Itíll be fine, just like engines have been since the beginning of engines. Lol

Oh and it still has the straight pennzoil conventional oil in it, that FCA engineers seems to think is fine for it when they built it.
The majority of owners manuals state not warming up engines. Being that they do test engines in sub zero temps and instantly run on a full load dyno, they are likely built for it.

Also, those 5.7s do have a history of rocker and lifter failures, especially in long idle situations (police departments), even though yours isn't particularly long. Less for the sake of the warm up argument and more for the potential life of your engine, it might be worth it do a used oil analysis. Just poking around on a couple different forums of those engines with the conventional oils, they drop like a rock in TBN almost immediately and move pretty slowly from there. Comparing penzoil ultra platinum, after 10k miles it's still retaining a higher level of additives than the conventional when it's fresh.

Those lack of additives in the conventional oils could very well be a part reason so many people are losing rockers/lifters in the 70k-150k mile range. Especially considering how many guys said that their rockers were wiped off.

I wasn't even aware that was an issue with those engines until someone brought it up. I asked my buddy's dad who runs an independent shop about it and he told me he does them quite a bit.
February 14th, 2018 10:46 AM
socialist Way to go @Mach Stang!
February 14th, 2018 10:42 AM
69fastback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Look man, it's your vehicle. Do with it as you wish. As we said, you're not going to kill it doing that. I make my decisions about my cars based on my experience, as do you. I've experienced -20* startups that made the engine make awful screaming noises, and I'd rather not let that happen to my personal vehicles, so I use synthetic oil and that's what I run with. Not trying to "prove" anything, just sharing the info I have.
So you can share your information and opinion, but I can't share mine without you taking some sort of offense? Maybe you should stay in the political section where that is the norm. I basically said the same thing several posts back, when I said we are really splitting hairs, and nobody will ever see a measurable difference.
February 14th, 2018 10:35 AM
Woodman
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69fastback View Post
Okay??? It warms up faster. Iím pretty sure anyone would expect to see that.

Hereís a question. How much of a load does the manufacturer say I can put on a cold engine? And what would they like me to use to measure the load?

---------- Post added at 07:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------

Oh, and I ask this as my truck is outside running, waiting to take the kids to school. Iím killing it! Ahhhhhh. Nah, Iím really not. Itíll be fine, just like engines have been since the beginning of engines. Lol

---------- Post added at 07:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 AM ----------

Oh and it still has the straight pennzoil conventional oil in it, that FCA engineers seems to think is fine for it when they built it.

---------- Post added at 07:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

So here's how my test went.


My truck ran for an unknown amount of time, because I really don't care enough to put the effort into timing it, and when I opened the door, this rush of warm, comforting air hit me in the face. I quickly climbed in and shut the door, trying to let as little of the warm air out as possible. As soon as my ass hit the seat, and my hands hit the steering wheel, I thought to myself, damn that's warm! Well, those are both electricslly heated items, but having the air around them warm was also nice.


I took my time getting situated in the truck, not in a hurry, because I wasn't freezing my ass off, and when I reached down to put the truck in drive, I knew the engine was warm and ready to go, because it told me so. It thanked me again, as I requested it to propel me to 75 MPH, 10 seconds out of my drive way. See, when you live 10 seconds from a 75 MPH speed limit, sometimes the truck is unhappy if you don't let it warm up. You're welcome truck. And thanks again for being warm for me.
Look man, it's your vehicle. Do with it as you wish. As we said, you're not going to kill it doing that. I make my decisions about my cars based on my experience, as do you. I've experienced -20* startups that made the engine make awful screaming noises, and I'd rather not let that happen to my personal vehicles, so I use synthetic oil and that's what I run with. Not trying to "prove" anything, just sharing the info I have.
February 14th, 2018 08:54 AM
69fastback Okay??? It warms up faster. I’m pretty sure anyone would expect to see that.

Here’s a question. How much of a load does the manufacturer say I can put on a cold engine? And what would they like me to use to measure the load?

---------- Post added at 07:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------

Oh, and I ask this as my truck is outside running, waiting to take the kids to school. I’m killing it! Ahhhhhh. Nah, I’m really not. It’ll be fine, just like engines have been since the beginning of engines. Lol

---------- Post added at 07:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 AM ----------

Oh and it still has the straight pennzoil conventional oil in it, that FCA engineers seems to think is fine for it when they built it.

---------- Post added at 07:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

So here's how my test went.


My truck ran for an unknown amount of time, because I really don't care enough to put the effort into timing it, and when I opened the door, this rush of warm, comforting air hit me in the face. I quickly climbed in and shut the door, trying to let as little of the warm air out as possible. As soon as my ass hit the seat, and my hands hit the steering wheel, I thought to myself, damn that's warm! Well, those are both electricslly heated items, but having the air around them warm was also nice.


I took my time getting situated in the truck, not in a hurry, because I wasn't freezing my ass off, and when I reached down to put the truck in drive, I knew the engine was warm and ready to go, because it told me so. It thanked me again, as I requested it to propel me to 75 MPH, 10 seconds out of my drive way. See, when you live 10 seconds from a 75 MPH speed limit, sometimes the truck is unhappy if you don't let it warm up. You're welcome truck. And thanks again for being warm for me.
February 13th, 2018 09:32 PM
Woodman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin View Post
I did a little test to satisfy my own curiosity.

It's not perfect but it does kinda show some differences between idling and light driving.

Light driving test - early morning

28 ambient

engine head temp 29 degrees to start

35 seconds of idling the head temp was up to 70 degrees. I didn't purposely wait, that's just how long it took me to move some stuff out of my pockets, buckle, play with the timer and clear some of the light haze from the windshield and drive away.

Driving was shifting at 2k rpm, being as nice to it as I could. For probably 3 minutes straight I was on nearly level ground, in 6th gear at 1400-1600 rpm.

After 6 minutes and 5 seconds the head temp was up to 175 degrees, which is where I'm comfortable that the engine is warm enough to get on it. It also happens to be more or less the most common time for the oil to hit the "normal" range which is 140 degrees.

Idle test

24 ambient

head temp to start 43 degrees (It was after work and the engine had been run a few hours before)

I didn't get the time to 70 degrees, because it happened so fast. Still had too much temp in it I guess.

At the 6 minute 5 second mark, the car had only made it to 132.

By 13 minutes and 8 seconds it finally reached 175.
I did a similar test last week...

Turned car on to connect my OBD2 reader, coolant read at 1.4*F, started car, was at 100* within 4 minutes of driving (shifting at 3000rpm, subaru boxer 4, it is happiest between 2000 and 3000 rpm), driving easy. Doing about 30 miles an hour. But, at about 6 minutes I was up to 60mph, again shifting at 3000, cruising at 2500 @ 60. Was at "normal" which is 160*F within 8 minutes on a morning that was hovering at 0* ambient temp.
February 13th, 2018 05:33 PM
07 Boss Even my fuel injected Mustang needs to warm up before driving. Not so much concerned about the oil but it does stumble on initial tip in before she warms up. We tried some different tuning strategies but came to the conclusion that when the manifold is cold it just doesn't seem to want to run all that smooth. I usually start my car and start driving it once I see the cylinder temp gauge start to move. That can be anywhere from a minute to 4-5 minutes.

I've got headers, OR mid-pipe and outlaws. My shit is loud in the mornings and sometimes I start her up pretty darn early in the morning. I'm sure it might be a little loud for some of my neighbors but we also have 1/2 dozen diesels on our street that get started up every morning too.
February 13th, 2018 03:39 PM
Austin I did a little test to satisfy my own curiosity.

It's not perfect but it does kinda show some differences between idling and light driving.

Light driving test - early morning

28 ambient

engine head temp 29 degrees to start

35 seconds of idling the head temp was up to 70 degrees. I didn't purposely wait, that's just how long it took me to move some stuff out of my pockets, buckle, play with the timer and clear some of the light haze from the windshield and drive away.

Driving was shifting at 2k rpm, being as nice to it as I could. For probably 3 minutes straight I was on nearly level ground, in 6th gear at 1400-1600 rpm.

After 6 minutes and 5 seconds the head temp was up to 175 degrees, which is where I'm comfortable that the engine is warm enough to get on it. It also happens to be more or less the most common time for the oil to hit the "normal" range which is 140 degrees.

Idle test

24 ambient

head temp to start 43 degrees (It was after work and the engine had been run a few hours before)

I didn't get the time to 70 degrees, because it happened so fast. Still had too much temp in it I guess.

At the 6 minute 5 second mark, the car had only made it to 132.

By 13 minutes and 8 seconds it finally reached 175.
February 9th, 2018 11:37 AM
69fastback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin View Post
Are you sure FCA doesn't require a semi-syn? Especially with 10k mile intervals?
Yes
February 9th, 2018 11:32 AM
Austin Are you sure FCA doesn't require a semi-syn? Especially with 10k mile intervals?
February 9th, 2018 07:40 AM
69fastback The warm air coming out of my dash after 5 minutes of idling with no load doesn’t magically appear from nowhere.

---------- Post added at 06:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
No. The only motor I've ever destroyed was because my dumb ass didn't route my remote oil filter line away from the tire far enough, I rubbed it, it burst, and good bye oil pressure, hellow spun bearings.

However, having lived in Ohio (near Toledo) and now in Minnesota, and having grown up in Texas, I'm intimately familiar with lots of different climates. When I lived in Ohio, a "cold" morning was 10 degrees F or so.
In Houston, a "cold" morning was about 33 degrees F.
Here, a cold morning will be -27 actual temp (not wind chill numbers, because those are bullshit).

Back in 2011/2012 when we had the "polar vortex" winter where we had three consecutive weeks where the high temp was still double digits below zero, my 2002 Crown Vic with 0w30 Mobil 1 would start up just fine, no ugly noises, no ticking from the top end, no issues. My work van, a 2007 Caravan CV (windowless rape van in minivan form basically) which had regular dino style Pennzoil 5w20 in it (because that's what the shop we get our oil changes at does) would literally scream when starting up. The oil was so cold at -20 F ambient temp, it wouldn't flow, and it put a LOT of wear and tear on that motor. We kept oil in it, it didn't burn any, but those noises made me not want to start it up.



Regarding your temperature gauge, the needle on my Thunderbird is an idiot light. If it's below 120 degrees, it doesn't move yet. Once it gets to 155 or so, it moves right smack to the middle of the gauge, and it'll register if it goes over 210 by moving up. My sensor reading the data direct from the ECU however, will tell me exactly what temp the car is at. On my Subaru, the needle doesn't move till it hits 110 or so, it goes half way between C and the mid point at about 130, and parks in the middle from 160 to 200. I haven't gotten it hotter than 200 yet, because it's a Subaru and the head gaskets will blow if you look at them crosseyed, and I live in Duluth, MN so 200 degrees only happens inside an oven. But just because your needle doesn't move fast doesn't mean the car isn't warming up quick.

I do agree, having the coolant warming the block is a good thing. I never said it wasn't. But, that doesn't heat up the oil. I admit, I live in the freaking cold and that puts some extremes into the situation, but because of that, and having seen videos of various oils and how they flow at various temps, I'll stick with my synthetic just to keep any issues from happening.

Here's the video if you're interested.
-40 Mobil 1 Amsoil Royal Purple comparison - YouTube

Maybe I should have been more specific. My truck has a page right there on the dash that has a numerical read out of all the temperatures and pressures straight from the ECU. Iím not talking about looking at needles. Iím not saying synthetic oils are bad. As I said, Iím running it in my new truck, but itís got a 5.7 hemi in it, and Iíd like to give it the best chance possible to keep the camshaft from eating lobes. Lol. Even though, FCA still recommends conventional oil and changes at 10K. I still say run whatever oil you want, and you will not lose an engine due to it, given you do the proper maintenence. My wifeís car has 125K miles of valvoline conventional oil changes. Maintenence is the key.
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