Life expectancy vs. socialized healthcare - Forums at Modded Mustangs
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 01:55 AM Thread Starter
Hardcore Enthusiast
 
Mustang Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: tampa florida
Posts: 2,559
     
iTrader: 1 reviews
Send a message via AIM to Mustang Boy Send a message via MSN to Mustang Boy Send a message via Yahoo to Mustang Boy
Cool Life expectancy vs. socialized healthcare

We were having a discussion at work about how happy European's were with their socialized healthcare(mainly about Sweden and I don't know why since I joined the conversation late) shortly after the conversation evolved into talking about how Sweden had a higher life expectancy than in the US and one of the other guys who is against socialized healthcare said it wasn't true so I did some googling and found it to be true. I kept with this after I got home and found that the top 20 countries in the world for the highest life expectancy all had socialized healthcare and found this to be intriguing. There may be more but I didn't go anymore in depth with my searching since I had to continue working.

List of countries with highest life expectancy.

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of countries with socialized healthcare.

List of Countries with Universal Healthcare True Cost – Analyzing our economy, government policy, and society through the lens of cost-benefit

315's Crew


Black and White Crew
Crew Member #2
Mustang Boy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 04:57 AM
Cum On Me Bro
 
sikedsyko's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,106
                   
iTrader: 0 reviews
Still doesnt make me want t o pay for some bum to live to 86...

sikedsyko is offline  
post #3 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 05:23 AM
MM Fanatic
 
02gtKev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 4,065
     
iTrader: 3 reviews
Crazy that Swaziland's average is 31......
02gtKev is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 09:04 AM
7.62x39 CO2 Cannon
 
JohnC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 5,045
           
iTrader: 1 reviews
Wait until that complete lives system kicks in.

Quote:
"However, other things are rarely equal—whether to save one 20-year-old, who might live another 60 years, if saved, or three 70-year-olds, who could only live for another 10 years each—is unclear." In fact, Dr. Emanuel makes a clear choice: "When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get changes that are attenuated (see Dr. Emanuel's chart nearby).

Dr. Emanuel concedes that his plan appears to discriminate against older people, but he explains: "Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination. . . . Treating 65 year olds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not."

The youngest are also put at the back of the line: "Adolescents have received substantial education and parental care, investments that will be wasted without a complete life. Infants, by contrast, have not yet received these investments. . . . As the legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin argues, 'It is terrible when an infant dies, but worse, most people think, when a three-year-old dies and worse still when an adolescent does,' this argument is supported by empirical surveys." (thelancet.com, Jan. 31, 2009).
Betsy McCaughey: Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel Wants Health-Care Rationing - WSJ.com

Where does that even come from, Fabian Socialism?


George Bernard Shaw said something to the effect, Sir or Madam, blah blah blahh, basically if you're not producing at least as much as you consume, time for you to take a dirt-nap. So if you were physically or mentally handicap, or just too old, you were worthless to society.

Just remember, if the complete lives system sounds good to you now, wait until you get older and sick. After being healthy and paying in to the system your whole life, oh sorry, you're too old now. Time to give that care to the more productive of society.

2010 CGM Camaro 2SS RS 6L90
Stage II ProCharger D1X
760rwhp @ 14 PSI

JohnC is offline  
post #5 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 09:37 AM
Moderator
 
03SonicBoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,592
                     
iTrader: 0 reviews
Correlation != Causation

Do you really think that live expectancy is based on socialized healthcare? How many countries that have socialized healthcare rank below the US (or are you just cherry picking the best data to look at a point?)? How many people in the US are dying because they cannot get into the hospitals for care they need?

I would think that life expectancy is more closely related to obesity and how active people are in their lives.

03SonicBoom is offline  
post #6 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 09:54 AM
King Trashmouth
 
WickedSnake00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Freakin' cornfields
Posts: 21,877
                     
iTrader: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang Boy View Post
We were having a discussion at work about how happy European's were with their socialized healthcare(mainly about Sweden and I don't know why since I joined the conversation late) shortly after the conversation evolved into talking about how Sweden had a higher life expectancy than in the US and one of the other guys who is against socialized healthcare said it wasn't true so I did some googling and found it to be true. I kept with this after I got home and found that the top 20 countries in the world for the highest life expectancy all had socialized healthcare and found this to be intriguing. There may be more but I didn't go anymore in depth with my searching since I had to continue working.

List of countries with highest life expectancy.

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of countries with socialized healthcare.

List of Countries with Universal Healthcare True Cost – Analyzing our economy, government policy, and society through the lens of cost-benefit
Except the European diet is completely unlike the American diet. Nice try though.

Your comparison is like saying "100% of people that die drank water."



...oh no, I just gave people more reason to ban more food like NYC so we can live as long as the Europeans.
WickedSnake00 is offline  
post #7 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 10:23 AM
I Post Entirely Way Too Much
 
T-Lee. 30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,181
                 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Send a message via Yahoo to T-Lee. 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by WickedSnake00 View Post
Except the European diet is completely unlike the American diet. Nice try though.

Your comparison is like saying "100% of people that die drank water."



...oh no, I just gave people more reason to ban more food like NYC so we can live as long as the Europeans.
Wicked What is so different about the European diet compared to the American diet?
They have access to McDonalds, Burgerking and other fast food places and Doner shops and pizza joints all over the damn place and beer is actually cheaper than soda in a restaurant's over there and there are plenty access to fried foods throughout Germany and that went the same all throughout France also. So they have access to the food there but you do see alot less obesity there. Seems as if they have more self control with their eating or something over there but they have plenty access to the foods that are high in calories and fat just as we do.
Btw im not pulling this info from the net I was only stationed there for some years so that's where im pulling it from.

-03 GT V1S trim 5psi, 3xxhp/3xxtq
-06 TBSS LS3H,cam,f.exhaust 4xxrwhp/4xxrwtq
-03 Dakota SLT Quad cab 2wd stock

Iraq and Afghanistan War Vet . Convoys and convoy security. My Wife is also a Army and Afghanistan war vet.
T-Lee. 30 is offline  
post #8 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 10:43 AM
King Trashmouth
 
WickedSnake00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Freakin' cornfields
Posts: 21,877
                     
iTrader: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Lee. 30 View Post
Wicked What is so different about the European diet compared to the American diet?
They have access to McDonalds, Burgerking and other fast food places and Doner shops and pizza joints all over the damn place and beer is actually cheaper than soda in a restaurant's over there and there are plenty access to fried foods throughout Germany and that went the same all throughout France also. So they have access to the food there but you do see alot less obesity there. Seems as if they have more self control with their eating or something over there but they have plenty access to the foods that are high in calories and fat just as we do.
Btw im not pulling this info from the net I was only stationed there for some years so that's where im pulling it from.
That is precisely my point. They eat better. That translates into better health. Imagine that.
WickedSnake00 is offline  
post #9 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 10:57 AM
I Post Entirely Way Too Much
 
T-Lee. 30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,181
                 
iTrader: 0 reviews
Send a message via Yahoo to T-Lee. 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by WickedSnake00 View Post
That is precisely my point. They eat better. That translates into better health.
Gotcha! So your point is even though they have the same access they just make better choices when it comes down to it compared to Americans and of course that's up to the individual(bc not every American has that lack of self control) but on a larger scale I get your point on that note. You see ALOT more walking and bicycling over there compared to here though so even if they do make the same choices in foods compared to here there is just alot more physical activity going on over there going on compared to here. You would see like 40+ bicycles parked at the shopping area over there and they would be all over the streets also. There just seemed to be more physical activity going on in the daily lives compared to here. So I don't think its pure diet.

Sorry for getting off topic OP!

-03 GT V1S trim 5psi, 3xxhp/3xxtq
-06 TBSS LS3H,cam,f.exhaust 4xxrwhp/4xxrwtq
-03 Dakota SLT Quad cab 2wd stock

Iraq and Afghanistan War Vet . Convoys and convoy security. My Wife is also a Army and Afghanistan war vet.
T-Lee. 30 is offline  
post #10 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 11:32 AM
eeeee!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 7,204
               
iTrader: 0 reviews
Send a message via AIM to Genevieve!
I have read the average wait time for a surgical procedure in Canada, is something like 18 -20 weeks and the wait time for a CAT scan is something like a year, that is.. unless you want to pay for it out of pocket.
Genevieve! is offline  
post #11 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 11:43 AM
Cornholed Manthusiast
 
LegendEleanor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gawgia
Posts: 3,985
               
iTrader: 0 reviews
Guys have you not read Zip's opinion of socialized healthcare? He knows firsthand about how much it blows and how high his taxes are. He doesn't have to read about Sweden on the internet.





Care packages for the troops!


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1FastFox View Post
The world has turned into such a safe place that idiots are now capable of not only thriving, but reproducing as well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1dmb! View Post
I use my Mustang to impress other guys.
LegendEleanor is offline  
post #12 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 11:45 AM
Nile P. Pezdel of Pez Dispenser Inc. CCA
 
nileppezdel77!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 5,502
               
Garage
iTrader: 3 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve! View Post
I have read the average wait time for a surgical procedure in Canada, is something like 18 -20 weeks and the wait time for a CAT scan is something like a year, that is.. unless you want to pay for it out of pocket.
Yeah, but there's a reason we cherry pick Canada as an example of wait times - they are particularly bad there. Wait times in other countries with socialized healthcare are better than those here in the US.



Other countries also have more doctors (per 1000 people) than us (despite all the horrors of socialized healthcare ruining doctor salaries).



And doctors spend more time with their patients than here.




'01 GT Convertible
Maximum Motorsports TQA|PHB|FLSFC|LCA|Coilovers
D&D T56 Magnum; Cobra R Brakes; Sparco Seats
Tuned by Mustang Magic and so much other stuff

'16 Fiesta ST
Cobb FMIC, Turbo-back exhaust, RMM and Air Filter
Tuned by Stratified
nileppezdel77! is offline  
post #13 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 11:50 AM
Nile P. Pezdel of Pez Dispenser Inc. CCA
 
nileppezdel77!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 5,502
               
Garage
iTrader: 3 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendEleanor View Post
Guys have you not read Zip's opinion of socialized healthcare? He knows firsthand about how much it blows and how high his taxes are. He doesn't have to read about Sweden on the internet.
Canadian and American taxes are not much different, and in most respects, Canadians pay less in taxes than us.






'01 GT Convertible
Maximum Motorsports TQA|PHB|FLSFC|LCA|Coilovers
D&D T56 Magnum; Cobra R Brakes; Sparco Seats
Tuned by Mustang Magic and so much other stuff

'16 Fiesta ST
Cobb FMIC, Turbo-back exhaust, RMM and Air Filter
Tuned by Stratified
nileppezdel77! is offline  
post #14 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 11:51 AM
Skirt Chasing Philanderer
 
1RápidoZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 14,391
                     
iTrader: 4 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by nileppezdel77! View Post
This is pretty general... It really needs to define "sick". Are we talking about a common cold and needing an antibotic or something like mono? Obviously, 6 days wait with mono means you are on your death bed. Whats the average wait for a CAT scan in europe? Xrays? Hip replacement?
1RápidoZorro is offline  
post #15 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 11:56 AM
Nile P. Pezdel of Pez Dispenser Inc. CCA
 
nileppezdel77!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 5,502
               
Garage
iTrader: 3 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1FastFox View Post
This is pretty general... It really needs to define "sick". Are we talking about a common cold and needing an antibotic or something like mono? Obviously, 6 days wait with mono means you are on your death bed. Whats the average wait for a CAT scan in europe? Xrays? Hip replacement?
This is what I found, if you find more pointed information, please post it. With all the walk-in clinics available, my experience with wait times in Europe have been minutes for minor health issues. My grandmother avoids having to deal with major health-related issues in the US and regularly heads to Greece for treatments because the doctor to population ratio is higher and the availability of immediate treatment and better service is worth the 9 hour flight to her.



'01 GT Convertible
Maximum Motorsports TQA|PHB|FLSFC|LCA|Coilovers
D&D T56 Magnum; Cobra R Brakes; Sparco Seats
Tuned by Mustang Magic and so much other stuff

'16 Fiesta ST
Cobb FMIC, Turbo-back exhaust, RMM and Air Filter
Tuned by Stratified
nileppezdel77! is offline  
post #16 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 12:00 PM
Skirt Chasing Philanderer
 
1RápidoZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 14,391
                     
iTrader: 4 reviews
Heres a good link regarding hip and knew replacements...

BBC NEWS | Health | NHS waiting time 'underestimated'
1RápidoZorro is offline  
post #17 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Nile P. Pezdel of Pez Dispenser Inc. CCA
 
nileppezdel77!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 5,502
               
Garage
iTrader: 3 reviews
Here's the Commonwealth Fund's charts from the studies they've done: Access & Equity Charts - The Commonwealth Fund

The U.K (60%) and Canada (57%) had the highest numbers of persons who had to wait four weeks or more to get to see a specialist physician. In the U.S., only 23% reported a wait of four weeks or more for specialty care.

The U.S. also did very well on measures of wait times for non-emergency or elective surgery. Only 8% of surveyed patients in the United States reported a wait time of four months or more for elective surgery, compared to 33% in Canada and 41% in the U.K. Germany scored the best, with only 6% reporting a long wait for elective surgery.

The United States, though, scored well on physicians’ perceptions of how many patients experience long waits for diagnostic tests. 57% of physicians in the U.K, and 51% of Canadian physicians reported that their patients experienced long waits for diagnostic tests, compared to only 9% of U.S. physicians who reported the same.

So, while we score very well for diagnostic tests, we're not doing better than Germany or NZ or France on almost any other metric.




'01 GT Convertible
Maximum Motorsports TQA|PHB|FLSFC|LCA|Coilovers
D&D T56 Magnum; Cobra R Brakes; Sparco Seats
Tuned by Mustang Magic and so much other stuff

'16 Fiesta ST
Cobb FMIC, Turbo-back exhaust, RMM and Air Filter
Tuned by Stratified
nileppezdel77! is offline  
post #18 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 12:09 PM
Nile P. Pezdel of Pez Dispenser Inc. CCA
 
nileppezdel77!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 5,502
               
Garage
iTrader: 3 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1FastFox View Post
Heres a good link regarding hip and knew replacements...

BBC NEWS | Health | NHS waiting time 'underestimated'
Right, but this isn't a problem in France and Germany, which are socialized and don't pay as much as us per capita on healthcare.

http://www.oecd.org/health/healthpol...a/17256025.pdf



'01 GT Convertible
Maximum Motorsports TQA|PHB|FLSFC|LCA|Coilovers
D&D T56 Magnum; Cobra R Brakes; Sparco Seats
Tuned by Mustang Magic and so much other stuff

'16 Fiesta ST
Cobb FMIC, Turbo-back exhaust, RMM and Air Filter
Tuned by Stratified
nileppezdel77! is offline  
post #19 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 01:54 PM
King Trashmouth
 
WickedSnake00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Freakin' cornfields
Posts: 21,877
                     
iTrader: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve! View Post
I have read the average wait time for a surgical procedure in Canada, is something like 18 -20 weeks and the wait time for a CAT scan is something like a year, that is.. unless you want to pay for it out of pocket.
Not just wait time but distance! It was a night and day difference between southern Ontario and western NY. Ontario had a single hospital for a vast area, and the WNY region had 4, and that's hospitals, not urgent care, other small clinics, or specialsts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nileppezdel77! View Post
Canadian and American taxes are not much different, and in most respects, Canadians pay less in taxes than us.
Going to have to throw the BS flag on this one.

Have you ever been to Canada? Just look at your receipt. Man are they nailing you with taxes! I'm sure Zip can confirm how bad it is in Ontario.

Then again you probably wouldn't notice much compared to downstate anyway.

Compared to the midwest though, the taxes are astronomical. The midwest makes NY look bad, and NY makes Ontario look bad.
WickedSnake00 is offline  
post #20 of 49 Old September 20th, 2012, 02:06 PM
Shake N' Bake
 
supermachone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,698
       
iTrader: 2 reviews
you mean i've been working out and trying to eat healthy for no reason?!?! FUCK
supermachone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Forums at Modded Mustangs forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



  LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/politics/277537-life-expectancy-vs-socialized-healthcare.html
Posted By For Type Date
List of Countries with Universal Healthcare | True Cost - Analyzing our economy, government policy, and society through the lens of cost-benefit This thread Refback March 3rd, 2014 06:06 AM
List of Countries with Universal Healthcare | True Cost - Analyzing our economy, government policy, and society through the lens of cost-benefit This thread Refback February 10th, 2014 03:46 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome