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post #1 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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Arrow Business, states open legal fire on EPA’s Clean Power Plan rule

Business, states open legal fire on EPA’s Clean Power Plan rule

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The legal barrage to halt the Environmental Protection Agency’s radical Clean Power Plan has begun.

A broad coalition of U.S. industry and business, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers, and an armada of other business and industry organizations, has asked the D.C. District of the federal Court of Appeals to prevent any further action on the Plan until the court can decide its overall legal status.

The coalition filed a motion at their first opportunity on Friday to stay EPA’s long-awaited final rule governing the plan, immediately after the agency published the rule in the Federal Register—the official birth notice of the long-gestating plan to drastically remake the entire U.S. electrical system, and among other things create a nationwide trading system for carbon emissions that was blocked by the Senate in 2009.

The business coalition argues that a huge, unprecedented and illegal expansion of EPA authority over the country’s entire electrical power system will cause “irreparable harm” unless complicated planning process ordained by the rule is halted while that legal battle over the entire program is fought, a process likely to last through most of 2016, if not longer.

In support of their argument they provided testimony not only from business groups but also trade unions and even school boards to buttress their concerns about the disastrous potential effects of failing to halt the process while the legal battles continue.

CLICK HERE FOR THE BUSINESS GROUP MOTION TO THE COURT


At least 26 state Attorneys General associations and as-yet uncounted numbers of individual companies separately asked the appeals court for a stay of the rule on roughly similar grounds.

As a motion by 24 states to the appeals court puts it, an “unprecedented, unlawful attempt by an environmental regulator to reorganize the nation’s energy grid” is intended to force the States and other bodies to make “immediate” and irreversible decisions to plan compliance with EPA’s rule before courts have ruled whether the plan is legal or not.

CLICK HERE FOR THE STATE MOTION TO THE COURT

“Every American industry is affected by the rule,” declared Karen Harbert, president and CEO of the U.S. Chamber’s Institute for 21st Century Energy, at a call-in press conference today to explain the action.

The opponents argue that in broad legal terms, EPA’s plan depends on the selective misinterpretation of some 300 words in the Clean Air Act that have never previously been used to regulate carbon emissions in such sweeping fashion.

The interpretation of little-known section 111 (d) of the Clean Air Act extends far beyond the setting of standards for individual sources—which the opponents argue is the sole basis of the law—to push states and regions into enforcing the cuts on a much more sweeping basis.

Under the rule, U.S. states have until September 2016 to create plans that implement customized levels of carbon emission reductions established by EPA, or seek a 2-year extension if that proves impossible. EPA decides if they get the extension, but adds that those granted the reprieve must provide an update of their plans in 2017.

Full compliance with the emissions reductions goes into effect in 2022—two years later than EPA originally declared it would-- and they are supposed to produce 32 per cent reductions in emissions from existing power plants by 2030.

States that do not come up with plans that EPA deems satisfactory, or choose not to follow the new rules, will get EPA-designed plans instead—none of which have so far been seen.

Those deadlines, both states and business groups argue, are largely intended to force states to choose in advance to shut down at a minimum roughly 11,000 megawatts of U.S. coal-fired power states by 2016, force mammoth reliance on new and unproven sources of renewable energy, and likely undercut the stability of the entire national U.S. electricity supply—and even then force suppliers to use a cap-and-trade system of emissions reduction certificates to stave off some of the drastic changes.

As one piece of evidence, the business petitioners point out that the final version of EPA’s rule sets emission levels for existing U.S. power plants that are about 7 per cent lower, for existing coal-fired plants, and 22 per cent lower, for existing natural gas-fired plants—that for brand-new facilities of either type.

Indeed, the business groups argue that under the published rule,” a new coal or gas plant with state-of-the-art controls could not achieve the emission rate [it] demands.”

“This disparity makes clear that the ‘existing source’ ceilings cannot be achieved by existing sources themselves,” but business groups argue, but essentially are pushing energy providers into deep reliance on renewables and a cap-and-trade regime that was turned down in the U.S. Congress in 2009, something that EPA Administrator McCarthy has denied.

“Bottom line: the EPA has dramatically overstepped its authority,” said Karen Harned, executive director of the National Federation of Independent Business’ Small Business Legal Center, which joined the 300,000-member Chamber in opposing the rule.

In response to questions, Linda Kelly, senior vice-president of the National Association of Manufacturers, charged that it was “pretty clear” that the timing of EPA’s publication of the final rule was “related” to the Obama Administration’s desire to show leadership at the upcoming, United Nations-sponsored climate change summit in Paris, where world leaders intend to adopt a nation-by-nation approach to setting global carbon emission standards.

Said Kelly: “The Clean Air Act was not designed as a tool for climate negotiations.”

For its part, EPA has argued, in the words of EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy, that its new rule “has strong scientific and legal foundations, provides states with broad flexibilities to design and implement plans, and is clearly within EPA's authority under the Clean Air Act.”

The agency has also declared that it “provided unprecedented outreach before and after the proposed Plan was issued,” and considered 4.3 million comments in response to the proposal.

McCarthy has pointed to the two-year extension in the planning process for the huge energy makeover as proof of EPA’s flexibility and the reasonableness of the planning process.

“States and utilities told us they needed more time, and we listened,” she declared on an in-house blog.

The business groups rejoinder is that while their comments were filed, they weren’t taken into account. Evidently, a majority of U.S. states—at least 26 out of 49 affected—to a significant extent agree.

Whether the opponents get the breathing space they say they need is itself going to take time to discover. Even an expedited appeals court hearing of the arguments for a stay of EPA’s timetable of execution could spill over into early 2016.

The business opponents to EPA’s plan would not second-guess the appeals court by saying whether they would go to the U.S. Supreme Court if their plea for a stay fails.

Speaking for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, however, Institute for 21st Century Energy CEO Harbert declared that her group “preserves all legal options through the entirety of the process.”

Business, states open legal fire on EPA?s Clean Power Plan rule | Fox News

Obama is just keeping his promise to tax CO2 and make Al Gore and his cronies filthy rich in an multi-trillion dollar Carbon Exchange

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post #2 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 08:48 PM
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Yup! Keep sticking up for big business.......

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post #3 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 10:03 PM
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BREAKING NEWS!!!!: Businesses and Industries Threatened by Regulations Oppose Regulations


Coal can fall into shambles for all I care. People need to stop being so short sighted to think that their personal jobs are more important than the greater good of the future of this country and planet. Do what the rest of us normal folk do when we get laid off - adapt to the change and find new work. Sorry coal-workers, the world is a-changing and you better figure out a way to get on board.

Eventually I may lose my job to the oil field crumbling. You know what I'll do? Find another fucking job in a different industry. Maybe even wind energy!!! MUAHAHAHA!!! Hell I've already survived one lay off. I'm not going to go cry to my government when it happens to me.

(Yes, I'm quite aware this post is going to strike a big nerve in a few members here)
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post #4 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brtnstrns View Post
BREAKING NEWS!!!!: Businesses and Industries Threatened by Regulations Oppose Regulations


Coal can fall into shambles for all I care. People need to stop being so short sighted to think that their personal jobs are more important than the greater good of the future of this country and planet. Do what the rest of us normal folk do when we get laid off - adapt to the change and find new work. Sorry coal-workers, the world is a-changing and you better figure out a way to get on board.
Get ready to pay up! CO2 taxation is a shell game that the political elites, oligarchs and cronies want setup so they can make money off the carbon credits in an exchange market. They admitted this trade will be a multi-trillion dollar industry for them.

One thing I want to point out is how the Govt helps them make those trillions off businesses and ultimately, us, the folks struggling and having to pay higher prices for energy and products.

They issue the same credits for the smallest business as they do the largest.

How will that effect you and me?

Well, the larger businesses have to either reduce production (which would effect supply and demand, driving the cost of their products up for you and I), or be forced to go to the carbon exchange and buy those CO2 credits.

You see how this works?

Either way, you are going to pay more. If the business sees it's worth the cost (customers will be willing to pay a higher cost for their product) of buying the carbon credits, it will buy them and keep right on producing.

But does that actually reduce CO2? NO! It just makes those political elites, their cronies and oligarch friends filthy rich who are invested in the Carbon Exchange.

Al Gore was one of the biggest investors at one time, but I'm not sure if he is still in the game or not. But no wonder he was pushing this Global Warming BS so hard. He'd been so filthy rich off that exchange. He'd lived along side the top billionaires in the world and all for what? Taxing production and energy, which passes higher costs on to you and I?

This is mafia style thuggery (skimming money off the middle class via businesses) backed by Govt law and Policing. Everything they tax is a part of our survival and civilization. Fuel, electricity, food production, products, etc.

If global warming is real, this is not the way to reduce it.

This just sets up another greed based market and it gets its money off the backs of businesses and hard working middle class folks.

There should be no exchange market. No tax, nadda. They could just write a law to cap CO2 at whatever levels are fair for the type of business and its size and be done with it. If they produced more CO2 than permitted, they could be punished by law.

Not that I agree with that, but I refuse to sit back and let a bunch of cronies and crooks steal money off working class folks who are just trying to keep a job and feed their families. And that's all the carbon exchange does is make the Al Gores and their cronies filthy rich off you and I.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by brtnstrns View Post

Eventually I may lose my job to the oil field crumbling. You know what I'll do? Find another fucking job in a different industry. Maybe even wind energy!!! MUAHAHAHA!!! Hell I've already survived one lay off. I'm not going to go cry to my government when it happens to me.

(Yes, I'm quite aware this post is going to strike a big nerve in a few members here)
China is going to swoop in and buy up the American oil companies when they get to bankruptcy. So you're just going to end up giving it to the Chinese and working for them and they'll take all the profits back home.

Yeah, fuck American oil and jobs! Let's keep buying foreign oil and give our oil industry profits to China. Brilliant!

https://youtu.be/cFaiA3YoMJ0?t=3m56s

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post #5 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 10:47 PM
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Good Lord do you EVER actually check to see if what you are saying is actually true or not?

The last few years have seen American oil production higher than in the last decade and lowest in foreign imports but you're still holding onto the belief that the administration is restricting oil drilling.

The hypocrisy is at an all time high!

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post #6 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Novanutcase View Post
Good Lord do you EVER actually check to see if what you are saying is actually true or not?

The last few years have seen American oil production higher than in the last decade and lowest in foreign imports but you're still holding onto the belief that the administration is restricting oil drilling.

The hypocrisy is at an all time high!

John
I wouldn't expect you to understand the future of the oil industry since your so blinded by political ideology.

You do know the low oil prices are bankrupting the small frackers, right? They're operating just to make their debt payments and re-borrowing to keep going in hopes that oil prices will rise again to get them back to profiting.

CNN -- Oil Companies

To add, OPEC is not slowing production intentionally to keep oil prices low in hopes of bankrupting American oil producers. Once they destroy our oil industry, they'll go right back to being the cartel they are and reduce production to drive oil prices back up like they did in the past.

That said...

Now if you'd took 1 second of your scanning my posts looking for a way to attack me, you'd seen I was replying to brtnstrns post:

Quote:
Eventually I may lose my job to the oil field crumbling
He says it right there. He works in the oil industry and he sees it "crumbling."


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post #7 of 19 Old October 27th, 2015, 11:45 PM
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China is going to swoop in and buy up the American oil companies when they get to bankruptcy. So you're just going to end up giving it to the Chinese and working for them and they'll take all the profits back home.

Yeah, fuck American oil and jobs! Let's keep buying foreign oil and give our oil industry profits to China. Brilliant!

https://youtu.be/cFaiA3YoMJ0?t=3m56s
No way in hell is China going to buy American oil companies. I can guarantee that. The worst they could do is steal our designs and sell them as their own for dirt prices. By the way, they already do this. Some of the designs I work on have been stolen and rebranded as a Chinese company's product and they sell for substantially cheaper. The difference is that we get to slap a certification on our equipment that says "this 250,000 lb chunk of cast steel isn't going to drop on your head and kill someone or damage your $7mil oil rig". That and my company's reputation allow us to stay competitive even when some cheap-ass version exists out there.

I don't believe in buying foreign oil. I believe we should be energy independent. But I also think that, in our place at the top of the world, we should be leading the charge in furthering the technology that will change our energy dependence and be the ones changing this planet for the better.

You can bitch about the EPA or whatever, but the US has done a pretty damn good job in cleaning up the bullshit that comes out of our engines and power plants in the face of corporate-interest opposition. Imagine if all the self-centered, self-interested companies stopped lining politicians pockets and using pseudo-science to block the progression of green energy at every turn. We'd be in an amazing place by now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
I wouldn't expect you to understand the future of the oil industry since your so blinded by political ideology.

You do know the low oil prices are bankrupting the small frackers, right? They're operating just to make their debt payments and re-borrowing to keep going in hopes that oil prices will rise again to get them back to profiting.

CNN -- Oil Companies

To add, OPEC is not slowing production intentionally to keep oil prices low in hopes of bankrupting American oil producers. Once they destroy our oil industry, they'll go right back to being the cartel they are and reduce production to drive oil prices back up like they did in the past.

That said...

Now if you'd took 1 second of your scanning my posts looking for a way to attack me, you'd seen I was replying to brtnstrns post:



He says it right there. He works in the oil industry and he sees it "crumbling."

I'm actually not saying its crumbling. Yeah its in terrible fucking shape right now but it will likely stabilize in the next three years or so. It'll be a painful recovery and from what I hear, it likely won't ever be the same as it was before but that's not really a bad thing as $100+/barrel is kind of ridiculous and (evidently) unsustainable.

Now yes, I could get laid off due to this downturn - like I said I've already survived one round of layoffs. I'm just saying, luckily, my wife and I did the proper thing and saved up money so that we could survive for about six months if, god forbid, we both lost our jobs at exactly the same time. So I'm not going to tell someone I deserve my job or only care about what's best for me just because I don't want to be unemployed. Technology changes and I carve my niche to ensure that my skills transfer to multiple disciplines and industries.

For some reason people think that old technology (coal: literally might as well be considered ancient) should be kept afloat just so they hold on to their jobs.

Now, I know people like to believe that government agencies like the EPA will just kill the lights on these places overnight but I'm confident people smarter than any of us set these plans properly so that it won't just be *poof* country in turmoil. I know its fun to think that someone high up wants to see this country turn into a wasteland but I highly doubt the situation will be as cataclysmic as people like to believe.
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post #8 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 12:50 AM
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I have to say JohnC. You've totally had me fooled. The last post you posted confirmed my suspicions that you are actually a left wing extremist trying to antagonize us with right wing rhetoric. No one can be as hard headed and blind to facts as you have been. No one can be as ridiculous in twisting a word or phrase to support their argument like you have. Hahahaha! Ya got me.

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post #9 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 01:07 AM Thread Starter
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I have to say JohnC. You've totally had me fooled. The last post you posted confirmed my suspicions that you are actually a left wing extremist trying to antagonize us with right wing rhetoric. No one can be as hard headed and blind to facts as you have been. No one can be as ridiculous in twisting a word or phrase to support their argument like you have. Hahahaha! Ya got me.


John
You must not have much of a life with the amount of time you spend here waiting for me and trolling my posts.

Do you even own a Mustang, bro?

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You must not have much of a life with the amount of time you spend here waiting for me and trolling my posts.

Do you even own a Mustang, bro?
I would say the same thing to you but I know you spend most of your time on extremist sites getting all your "facts".

John

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post #11 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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I would say the same thing to you but I know you spend most of your time on extremist sites getting all your "facts".

John
Yeahhhh... You might want to look in the mirror.

See your stupid TP = American Taliban thread. That's left-wing extremist shit right there for example.

https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...n-taliban.html

Then there was this, too: https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...l#post11045402

You see, your extremist facts aren't really facts either.

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Yeahhhh... You might want to look in the mirror.

See your stupid TP = American Taliban thread. That's left-wing extremist shit right there for example.

https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...n-taliban.html

Then there was this, too: https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...l#post11045402

You see, your extremist facts aren't really facts either.
Right....the fact that your rebuttals are all taken from the anecdotal experiences of your aunt and uncle gives them complete validity.

Again, I admitted my thread was flawed but because you want to use it, not to debate the issue so much as to discredit the one you are debating, you gloss over that fact and continue on using it in your attacks while you cry about being "attacked".

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post #13 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Again, I admitted my thread was flawed

John
You posted it because it aligned with your extremist views of the right which consists of conservatives, libertarians and small Govt lower tax constitutionalist advocates, such as the TP. Not even slightly comparible to the Taliban.

So fucking ignorant it is unbelieveable.

And how many times did you try to keep arguing the point before you backpedalled?

Quote:
Once again, regardless of the source, the points made have no validity?

John
1. https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...l#post11104754

2. https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...l#post11108826

3. https://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...l#post11110722

And then you stated this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novanutcase View Post
I already stated that the article was reaching
Yet all the posts above that one there was no admitting shit..... So you admitted it was reaching in that post.

Your full of it, John/Nova.

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post #14 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 07:37 PM
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... and small Govt lower tax constitutionalist advocates, such as the TP...
LOL, is that what they call themselves in order to try to distance the potential stigma of "tea partiers"? Genuinely curious.
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post #15 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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LOL, is that what they call themselves in order to try to distance the potential stigma of "tea partiers"? Genuinely curious.
I just Googled to make sure they weren't the Taliban... Hang on and let me quote them....

About Us - Tea Party

Quote:
The Tea Party is a grassroots movement that calls awareness to any issue which challenges the security, sovereignty, or domestic tranquility of our beloved nation, the United States of America. From our founding, the Tea Party represents the voice of the true owners of the United States: WE THE PEOPLE.

TeaParty.org was created on: September 2nd, 2004. Many claim to be the founders of this movement; however, it was the brave souls of the men and women in 1773, known today as the Boston Tea Party, who dared to defy the greatest military might on earth. We are the beneficiaries of their courage.

The Tea Party includes those who possess a strong belief in the foundational Judeo-Christian values embedded in our great founding documents. We believe the responsibility of our beloved nation is etched upon the hearts of true American Patriots from every race, religion, national origin, and walk of life sharing a common belief in the values which made and keep our beloved nation great. This belief led to the creation of the modern-day Tea Party.

Our millions of members consist of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and Independents who identify with the premises set forth by the U.S. Constitution and we are striking a chord and ringing true with the American Spirit.

We stand by the Constitution as inherently conservative. We serve as a beacon to the masses that have lost their way, a light illuminating the path to the original intentions of our Founding Fathers. We must raise a choir of voices declaring America must stand on the values which made us great. Only then will the politically blind see and deaf hear!

By joining the Tea Party, you are taking a stand for our nation. You will be upholding the grand principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

15 Non-negotiable Core Beliefs

1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.
3. A strong military is essential.
4. Special interests must be eliminated.
5. Gun ownership is sacred.
6. Government must be downsized.
7. The national budget must be balanced.
8. Deficit spending must end.
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.
13. Intrusive government must be stopped.
14. English as our core language is required.
15. Traditional family values are encouraged.

Tea Party Movement

Reminiscent of Tiananmen Square where a few stood to defy tyranny and demand liberty and democracy, a few patriots stood in protest representing the American people. We are more than lowly protestors; we are the type of Americans the Founding Fathers envisioned over 200 years ago as true Patriots of courage and valor.

TeaParty.org and soon other fearless Patriots began to join in our solitary stance; The Tea was brewing! Young and old, wealthy and poor, patriots of all colors and backgrounds began to rally with a new energy, an energy reminiscent of pictures in old American History books. Word of mouth began to spread. Citizens began calling loved ones, proclaiming, “We The People Rule!” Many blogged on their laptops, or messaged family and friends. The energy began to sweep across the nation.

The media began to take notice. America was deeply moved, right down to her soul. A new voice began to speak, and a new hope was spawned. Gathering crowds grew from hundreds to thousands, and then swelled to the millions.

As citizens became increasingly frustrated by “politics as usual,” patriots across America began seeking a new voice, one that echoes from the pages of history. What would we name this voice? It soon became obvious, for our very own heritage held the key to unleashing the American Spirit. The Tea Party was the perfect choice. The Tea Party concept was far superior because it removed all the obstacles of party lines along with the baggage of confused issues, and focused only on a few key points.

From this humble beginning a movement was born. The Tea Party Movement, born from obscurity, without funding, without planning, is a spontaneous force shaking the very glass foundation of the oligarchy that rules in our name, but without our blessing.

We took our stand, thousands joined, and then millions assembled across our beloved nation. Today, tens of millions of Patriot voices resonate in unison “We The People Rule!” In spite of ongoing hateful ridicule from socialists and leftists, we stood our post, day by day, month by month and now year in and year out. We will not stop.

Needless to say, this Tea Party Movement has grown far beyond belief, from a handful of brave Patriots to tens of millions. Many have been declared as the founder of the modern-day Tea Party; to that we can say: “The true founders of the Tea Party were the brave Patriots who dared challenge the status quo in 1773; we are merely their beneficiaries.”

- See more at: About Us - Tea Party
The other one and I have no clue which is more or less legit, but they seem to stand for about the same principles.

https://www.teapartypatriots.org/ourvision/

So yeah, they really sound dangerous to me.

Taliban? You'd have to be a left-wing crack smoking Communist to view them that way.

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post #16 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.
Yes?

Quote:
2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.
Yes

Quote:
3. A strong military is essential.
Strong, yeah, not unnecessarily inflated though

Quote:
4. Special interests must be eliminated.
Definitely

Quote:
5. Gun ownership is sacred.
Sacred according to Merriam Webster:
Quote:
: worthy of religious worship : very holy

: relating to religion

: highly valued and important : deserving great respect
Not...really...

Quote:
6. Government must be downsized.
In some respects. Regulation has to exist to some extent. I'm not really in favor of four year olds having their arms ripped off in cotton gins or companies dumping whatever fucked up chemicals they want into our water supply. But the NSA could certainly use a downsizing.

Quote:
7. The national budget must be balanced.
Definitely

Quote:
8. Deficit spending must end.
Alright

Quote:
9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.
Cool

Quote:
10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.
I don't know about must

Quote:
11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.
Sure, as long as small businesses are differentiated from mega corporations.

Quote:
12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.
Fa sho!

Quote:
13. Intrusive government must be stopped.
Yeah, fuck the NSA!

Quote:
14. English as our core language is required.
...I mean, alright. Is there some threat I'm unaware of of Obama changing our language to Kenyan?

Quote:
15. Traditional family values are encouraged.
There is no such thing as "traditional family values" and there shouldn't be some designated group of people to decide what those "values" are so they can just fuck right off with that. (JK women need to be permanent housewives and cooking/cleaning all day!)
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post #17 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brtnstrns View Post
Yes?


Yes


Strong, yeah, not unnecessarily inflated though


Definitely


Sacred according to Merriam Webster:


Not...really...


In some respects. Regulation has to exist to some extent. I'm not really in favor of four year olds having their arms ripped off in cotton gins or companies dumping whatever fucked up chemicals they want into our water supply. But the NSA could certainly use a downsizing.


Definitely


Alright


Cool


I don't know about must


Sure, as long as small businesses are differentiated from mega corporations.


Fa sho!


Yeah, fuck the NSA!


...I mean, alright. Is there some threat I'm unaware of of Obama changing our language to Kenyan?


There is no such thing as "traditional family values" and there shouldn't be some designated group of people to decide what those "values" are so they can just fuck right off with that. (JK women need to be permanent housewives and cooking/cleaning all day!)
I'm not a TP'er and not going to defend them on all their positions. I was just pointing out how wrong John/Nova was by posting that stupid video by extremists trying to claim the TP are the American Taliban.

That was the most ignorant and ridiculous thing I think he's posted on this forum yet.

Do you see them as the Taliban? You seem to agree with most of their platform.

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post #18 of 19 Old October 28th, 2015, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
I'm not a TP'er and not going to defend them on all their positions. I was just pointing out how wrong John/Nova was by posting that stupid video by extremists trying to claim the TP are the American Taliban.

That was the most ignorant and ridiculous thing I think he's posted on this forum yet.

Do you see them as the Taliban? You seem to agree with most of their platform.
Haha I know, I've just never responded to a list before so I felt like giving it a shot.

To be perfectly honest with you, I didn't watch the video clip Nova posted so I can't comment on them being equivalent to the Taliban. I'm guessing they probably don't behead people but I'm also guessing they'd like to see women dressed like puritans from the 18th century.

I don't really support the Tea Party as a political ideology. From what I've read, it started out as a true grassroots movement with really good ideas - then the Koch brothers grabbed a hold of it and twisted it into some perversion of itself (I mean, Sarah Palin as the first picture on their website? Vomit! )

But yes, of course the way they present themselves using that list looks good and of course I agree with some of it. I agree with some of all political ideologies - the problem is that in practice they never really stick with the good aspects of their ideals and tend to put the bad shit on a pedestal.
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post #19 of 19 Old October 29th, 2015, 06:23 PM
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This is what is so laughable. JohnC actually thinks that I think TPer's walk around with AK's strapped to their back and follow Sharia Law. That is how ignorant he is.

All the points I listed are EXACTLY the makeup of many in the TP leadership. Read that again John....THE LEADERSHIP!

John

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