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post #1 of 159 Old January 25th, 2017, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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Trump's totally, not-metaphorical, literal, physical wall

Trump orders wall to be built on Mexico border - BBC News

So we've got all this money to "front" for building a physical wall which will do precisely dick in curbing illegal immigration but some of these people get all pissy about spending money on helping out the poor and sick in this country because a small percentage of them might abuse the system?

jesus titty fucking christ Trump supporters [that would rather their tax dollars go towards a wall as opposed to their tax dollars going to healthcare or social services] are fucking retarded

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post #2 of 159 Old January 25th, 2017, 07:21 PM
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Trump orders wall to be built on Mexico border - BBC News

So we've got all this money to "front" for building a physical wall which will do precisely dick in curbing illegal immigration but some of these people get all pissy about spending money on helping out the poor and sick in this country because a small percentage of them might abuse the system?

jesus titty fucking christ Trump supporters are fucking retarded
We prefer the term deplorable

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post #3 of 159 Old January 25th, 2017, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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That just doesn't have enough zing to it.

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

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I like dis

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post #4 of 159 Old January 25th, 2017, 08:45 PM
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Actually all of the laws for border security have been on the books for years. It's just that the federal government chose not to enforce them. Trump's executive order is just pushing compliance with existing law to the top of the heap.
Text of Trump's executive order on border security | Fox News

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post #5 of 159 Old January 25th, 2017, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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This was a law on the books already?
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secure the southern border of the United States through the immediate construction of a physical wall on the southern border, monitored and supported by adequate personnel so as to prevent illegal immigration, drug and human trafficking, and acts of terrorism;
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(e) "Wall" shall mean a contiguous, physical wall or other similarly secure, contiguous, and impassable physical barrier.
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(a) In accordance with existing law, including the Secure Fence Act and IIRIRA, take all appropriate steps to immediately plan, design, and construct a physical wall along the southern border, using appropriate materials and technology to most effectively achieve complete operational control of the southern border;

(b) Identify and, to the extent permitted by law, allocate all sources of Federal funds for the planning, designing, and constructing of a physical wall along the southern border;

(c) Project and develop long-term funding requirements for the wall, including preparing Congressional budget requests for the current and upcoming fiscal years;
Physical walls exist in certain areas where it makes sense along the border. So obviously he's not referring to those otherwise this statement would have been left out - especially the inference of "construction" meaning that it is something is yet to exist.

This is the opposite of fiscally conservative, especially if you look at true estimates (read: not numbers put forth by Trump's mouth) at the cost of the wall he has described.

Regardless, the fact that a vast number of his supporters support us spending money on this frivolous, ineffective-in-the-grand-scheme bullshit but get their panties all twisted over welfare and access to healthcare because they've been fed the lie and propaganda of the out-of-control "welfare queen" is absolutely, depressingly mind boggling. It is objectively moronic. Like, you could bring in a third-party, unbiased research group to study a person that believes money spent on a border wall is better than money spent on the welfare of the citizens of this country and they would determine that person is an idiot.

It's one thing to up border security through increased presence. Building a wall in the 21st Century on one of the longest borders in the world is absurd, especially when a little critical thinking and viewing of research shows that the majority of illegals in this country were not brought across the Rio Grande by coyotes.

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post #6 of 159 Old January 25th, 2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by brtnstrns View Post
This was a law on the books already?






Physical walls exist in certain areas where it makes sense along the border. So obviously he's not referring to those otherwise this statement would have been left out - especially the inference of "construction" meaning that it is something is yet to exist.

This is the opposite of fiscally conservative, especially if you look at true estimates (read: not numbers put forth by Trump's mouth) at the cost of the wall he has described.

Regardless, the fact that a vast number of his supporters support us spending money on this frivolous, ineffective-in-the-grand-scheme bullshit but get their panties all twisted over welfare and access to healthcare because they've been fed the lie and propaganda of the out-of-control "welfare queen" is absolutely, depressingly mind boggling. It is objectively moronic. Like, you could bring in a third-party, unbiased research group to study a person that believes money spent on a border wall is better than money spent on the welfare of the citizens of this country and they would determine that person is an idiot.

It's one thing to up border security through increased presence. Building a wall in the 21st Century on one of the longest borders in the world is absurd, especially when a little critical thinking and viewing of research shows that the majority of illegals in this country were not brought across the Rio Grande by coyotes.
It's mexico's money so why should we care? Also, I work in a hospital and I see illegals come into the ER on a daily basis because they know they can't be refused health care in the ER. So, who pays their medical bill? Our government pays it with our tax money. They already cost us millions and millions of dollars every year and continue to steal jobs from hardworking Americans, so I'm all for every effort to stop them from infiltrating the USA.

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post #7 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
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It's mexico's money so why should we care? Also, I work in a hospital and I see illegals come into the ER on a daily basis because they know they can't be refused health care in the ER. So, who pays their medical bill? Our government pays it with our tax money. They already cost us millions and millions of dollars every year and continue to steal jobs from hardworking Americans, so I'm all for every effort to stop them from infiltrating the USA.
Please tell me how Mexico is going to pay for it. Trump's statement is helpful but it just doesn't quite paint a clear picture:

Quote:
"There will be a payment. It will be in a form, perhaps a complicated form," he said.
Oh wait, no that doesn't say shit.

So he's going to remove $500 million in aid each year - okay, that covers 2.5% per year of the $20 billion conservative estimate. Oh, he'll raise tariffs on them in order to reduce their ability to sell us cheap goods. So they raise their prices and the American taxpayer now has to pay for higher goods. Oh well they'll get raised so much that American producers will become competitive - oh wait, that's right, that still means increased price of goods for the normal American taxpayer.

I believe Eagle has been a CFO and I know for a fact he teaches accounting so perhaps he could shine some light on it, but I don't see any way American taxpayers don't get fucked - whether directly or indirectly.

And oh yeah - A WALL WILL REDUCE A NEARLY NEGLIGIBLE AMOUNT OF ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY.

Jesus, at least be realistic and put the money towards manpower instead (yes I know this is part of the plan, it doesn't negate the fact that the wall is a fucking stupid waste of money).
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post #8 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 02:20 AM
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Let the states handle their border patrol.
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post #9 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 08:41 AM
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This was a law on the books already?
Yes, the Secure Fence Act of 2006. But in 2008 Obama was elected. And the trillion dollars of stimulus money went to pay for a lot of other things instead of infrastructure such as wages for a year to a small museum owner. The fence was never built.

I'm sure the government will come up with some ten year estimate on how monetary outlays now will reap rewards 10 years from now. The Congressional Budget Office does this all the time to justify spending and tax cuts. Unfortunately, the estimates of rewards in years 9 and 10 never seem to materialize.

Tariffs levied against foreign products will increase the price of the goods. This will do two things. It increases revenue for the federal treasury and it takes away the downward pressure on wages in the United States. Depending upon how it is done it could start a trade war with tariffs being levied on our goods going into their countries.

People complain about the low wages in the United States. Liberals want to fix it by mandating an increase in minimum wage. In a free trade environment that will simply drive jobs that can move to go elsewhere. I was once a strong supporter of free trade but in many instances it quickly became unfair trade. The theory behind free trade is that each country benefits by selling goods that they have an economic advantage in producing. The theory works if the exchange rate is allowed to float, if our trading partner has the resources to buy the goods we produce, and if there are no bureaucratic or cultural barriers to trade. Since all of those things exist free trade has become unfair trade.

I was the CFO of a small manufacturing firm for 15 years. As early as 1998 were were worried about foreign imports but the quality of their competing products sucked. But China had opened up and Americans went to China to improve the quality of their products. It was around 2000-2002 that we started feeling the competition as did small manufacturers in other industries. It created a divide among businessmen. Retailers were making more money than ever selling cheap imports. Manufacturers were being squeezed out of existence.

A company called China First was found guilty of dumping (selling below cost). That company dissolved and another took its place. China is also a well known currency manipulator. We used a lot of the managerial accounting techniques that I now teach to try to keep manufacturing our own products but in the end we stopped manufacturing completely and became an importer. Doing so made 70% of our workforce unnecessary.

There are instances where we need tariffs. They should be used selectively but the are needed. And yes. They will increase the price of the product. But we cannot continue to let our trade partners take advantage of us if we wish to maintain our middle class.

---------- Post added at 07:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 AM ----------

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Let the states handle their border patrol.
Providing a common defense is one of the few things the federal government is suppose to be doing. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution about welfare or taking care of the poor.

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post #10 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 09:05 AM
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Please tell me how Mexico is going to pay for it.
It's really pretty simple, tax everything they import.

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post #11 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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It's really pretty simple, tax everything they import.
I'm not as well-versed in the consequences of large, sweeping economic changes as someone like Eagle, but I can guarantee you it's not "really pretty simple".

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post #12 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 12:53 PM
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Providing a common defense is one of the few things the federal government is suppose to be doing. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution about welfare or taking care of the poor.
We are on the same page with that. Nothing will change though until we take back the power of our money from the Federal Reserve. Until that happens we are a slave to foreign investors who we will never know who they are even though we probably know it's the Rothschilds, etc.

There are multiple states who want to take on their own border control and immigration but because it has political implications the Federal Government won't allow it. I think you could easily handle it with states taking the lead with government support if needed.
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post #13 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Let's look at other, far-fetched but not impossible scenarios:

Taxing Mexican made goods and imposing tariffs on all commerce between the US and Mexico in order to force Mexico to 100% finance the wall would ultimately lead to the death of Mexico. The migration of refugees would EXPLODE and the will of suffering humans tends to lead to creativity that outwits most barriers.

Mexico becomes desperate while we have shat all over China. Our desire for isolationism opens opportunities for countries around the world, allies and enemies, to form new alliances between one another. How would we all feel about China or Russia building military bases a few hundred miles away from the United States border? Mexico is desperate and drowning in bankruptcy - other world powers would be happy to step in and provide aid at the cost of creating strategic positions against the United States and Mexico would welcome these situations with open arms.

This is a small sliver of the consequences of the short-sightedness of many people on the right. The world has progressed and that doesn't stop just because you pray for it to. Globalism is the present and globalism is the future. We can try to isolate ourselves and act as if we're the ones that control how the world goes 'round but the consequences are dramatic and far from "simple".

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post #14 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 03:56 PM
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Globalism? Three-quarters of the countries in the United Nations are dictatorships. The UN has recommended the Chinese economic model for all third-world countries including currency manipulation. The UN committee on climate change openly admits that their goals are transfer payments to third world countries and an end to capitalism. If you want to create a permanent underclass in the United States, a society of the poor with only a few rich then you should continue to believe in globalism.

I think we should be more concerned about our own people, our own economy, and our own country. Fair trade deals benefit both sides. Not just one. Globalism is nothing more than a slogan for transferring money from developed nations to underdeveloped nations.

I donated money to "Save the Children" in Mexico for more than 30 years. I stopped because even after 30 years of donations the life of Mexican peasants didn't improve. My wife and I now donate that money for the education of Indian reservation children here in the United States.

I realize you want to save the world. After years of putting my own personal money into trying my goals are somewhat smaller.

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post #15 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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You're either misunderstanding my point or intentionally misinterpreting it to deflect to a separate topic of discussion.

How is Mexico going to pay for something that they literally cannot afford without completely obliterating their country? Especially after being insulted over and over again for the past year while a buffoon erodes relationships with other world powers that, in desperate measures, would be happy to align themselves with new interests; interests that don't align with those of our country?

Sure, the US could use it's military might to dissuade this kind of action but we're willing to risk a global war for the sole purpose of satiating the hatred of a few idiots who direct the blame of our economic hardships towards the completely wrong direction?

I don't give a shit about saving the world - I am an insignificant force in that regard. I care about pointing out the short-sightedness, stupidity and hypocrisy of idiots who were trained from birth to doubt credibility based on uneducated feelings and convinced that critical thinking is detrimental to their livelihood - this applies to dumbasses on the left and dumbasses on the right.

If you pay attention, the "lefties" on this site don't really do much to defend the stupidity of the fringe of the left wing. Maybe Nova latches on to some cockeyed topics ( three week long discussion of speed limits) but for the most part, none of us defend the ludicrous ideas of safe spaces, being so "tolerant" that they become intolerant, crying out for the abolishment of gun rights. etc. But those of you leaning towards the right sure do find ways to slide, sidestep, dodge or flat out ignore the idea that the idiocy of your compatriots runs rampant and is currently taking the helm of the future.

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post #16 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 04:49 PM
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First, I don't think we are going to start a trade war with Mexico. I think all of this is a preamble to renegotiating NAFTA.

You are correct in that China would love to move into Mexico (actually they probably already have). But China doesn't exactly cut fair deals with other countries. There is a China first philosophy to every deal that they make. They are not interested is setting up manufacturing plants in Mexico. The only thing they would want is Mexico's resources. China is one of the leading investor in Africa but many of the African nations that have chosen to deal with them have later regretted it. Either that or they are completely totalitarian and don't give a damn about their people or their land.
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post #17 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 07:37 PM
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If you read the order on the whitehouse website, there is a part that states that the secretaries of whatever have to provide Trump with all federal funds going to Mexico for any reason like humanitarian aide etc. Maybe he plants on cutting funding for things in Mexico in order to pay for his wall? Either way a wall is fucking stupid lol
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post #18 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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If you read the order on the whitehouse website, there is a part that states that the secretaries of whatever have to provide Trump with all federal funds going to Mexico for any reason like humanitarian aide etc. Maybe he plants on cutting funding for things in Mexico in order to pay for his wall? Either way a wall is fucking stupid lol
I mean I'm pretty sure it's been in his plan all along that them "paying for it" would come from taxation and levies which in its simplest terms, sounds like a great way to force payment regardless. The issue is that the economic and geopolitical consequences of making that happen could turn out to be unimaginably horrible.

Of course, Congress has to approve the "fronting" of the funds up front but the question is how many of the constituents are frothing at the mouth for this wall to exist and are the representatives willing to turn on their constituents' wishes by rejecting the funding? Could be political suicide for the more extreme districts.

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post #19 of 159 Old January 26th, 2017, 11:34 PM
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How much do you want to bet that the wall will get started, billions of taxpayer dollars will be spent and it will come to a grinding halt halfway through because of lack of money, lawsuits, etc.

As I said before, we are building a monument to our stupidity for all the world to laugh at.

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post #20 of 159 Old January 27th, 2017, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
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How much do you want to bet that the wall will get started, billions of taxpayer dollars will be spent and it will come to a grinding halt halfway through because of lack of money, lawsuits, etc.

As I said before, we are building a monument to our stupidity for all the world to laugh at.

John
Even if not lack of money, lack of time at least. If a democrat gets the presidency in four years, this shit will be stopped in its tracks.

I'm actually looking forward to "Monument De Dumbass". A constant, physical reminder that ideas driven by irrational fear and hatred lead to stupid-ass, wasteful decisions.

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