Only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun* - Page 2 - Forums at Modded Mustangs
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post #21 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 03:41 AM
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Again, it's interesting how someone who's been big on this bandwagon is suddenly backpedaling. The actual threat wasn't neutralized, so at what point was this guy supposed to transition from being in a life or death situation to understanding the needs of police officers to not ever see a black man holding a gun? Literally numerous people had guns drawn here (good ole' Alabama) but this man gets shot allegedly "milliseconds" after cops rolled up (according to the people who were actually there, not us Monday morning QB's).
hold on, how am i backpedaling?

i never said anything about whether or not the threat was neutralized, i never even commented on this situation at all aside from saying that the guy who was shot could have handled things better (based on my understanding of what happened). i simply said that if you are carrying a gun and there is imminent life threatening danger, you pull your gun, immediately shoot to kill, then remove your gun from your hands so that you won't be perceived as a threat by a cop or bystander. this should take place as quickly as possible. cops are trained to determine whether somebody is a threat or not, and sometimes, such as in this case, their judgment is wrong. when you carry a gun, you need to understand the grim reality that shit like this can happen and you need to do everything in your power to avoid being perceived as the aggressor by any (potentially armed) onlookers. is this something you disagree with? is this in any way inconsistent with anything i've posted in the past?

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post #22 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 04:27 AM
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hold on, how am i backpedaling?

i never said anything about whether or not the threat was neutralized, i never even commented on this situation at all aside from saying that the guy who was shot could have handled things better (based on my understanding of what happened). i simply said that if you are carrying a gun and there is imminent life threatening danger, you pull your gun, immediately shoot to kill, then remove your gun from your hands so that you won't be perceived as a threat by a cop or bystander. this should take place as quickly as possible. cops are trained to determine whether somebody is a threat or not, and sometimes, such as in this case, their judgment is wrong. when you carry a gun, you need to understand the grim reality that shit like this can happen and you need to do everything in your power to avoid being perceived as the aggressor by any (potentially armed) onlookers. is this something you disagree with? is this in any way inconsistent with anything i've posted in the past?
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you wrote but it seemed as if you were discounting the fact the black guy with a gun was shot because he shouldn't have been holding his gun, in the midst of an active shooter situation, literally seconds after it happened according to the Hoover Police Department.

You support concealed carry, even in gun free zones if I remember correctly. You even support open carry even though you personally think it is dumb. But when a black man pulls a gun in response to an active shooter and is almost immediately shot for it your response is "Well, he should have handled it differently.". At least that's how I took it. Forgive me for not sensing the underlying outrage in your post over a man exercising his right in the exact moment one would actually need to and getting killed for it by the police. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Best to just not be black from what I can tell considering no other ccw holder who drew their weapon out got shot in the aftermath.

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post #23 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 06:04 AM
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well i stand by what i said. if he wasn't holding his gun in that particular moment, he likely wouldn't have been shot. i think we can all agree on that. this is a lesson we can all learn from. and yes, this is me monday morning quarterbacking, if you want to call it that.

i want to make it very clear that i'm not blaming him, just pointing out after the fact that this is how things can go wrong. this is not the first time something like this has happened. a person shouldn't have to worry about being shot by cops when using their weapon lawfully and in self defense, but as seen here, it's an unfortunate reality that you DO have to worry about when carrying, and you need to have a plan to minimize the possibility of that happening. the cops were wrong to immediately shoot him, period. ALL gun carriers need to understand this risk and act accordingly. again, this does not absolve the police of responsibility.

do you happen to have a link that explains the situation in detail? i have a lot of questions. was the victim hiding with his gun out or walking around? what about the other CCW holders? did the police see any other citizens with guns before seeing the victim, or was he the first person they saw with a gun? if they saw any CCW holders before him, were any of them black?

i have a really hard time with the narrative seemingly implying there were a lot of white CCW holders with their weapons drawn, the police walked right past them, then saw the victim and said "black man bad" and shot him.

if they heard gunshots, and he was the first person they saw with a gun, then any other CCW holders with weapons drawn are irrelevant, but that doesn't excuse this "shoot first, ask questions later" bullshit.

my guess is that they heard gunshots, he was the first person they saw with a gun, and they shot him. they should not have shot him immediately, and knowing what we know now, they obviously shouldn't have shot him at all. i just don't think these cops pushed their way through a crowd of white people holding guns and shot him because a black guy with a gun is obviously the bad guy.

either way, it's clear that these cops need better training, or this department needs better cops.

with all of that said, i applaud the guy for having the balls to stand up for himself. it sounds like he only had the best of intentions, and though his death was unfair, he died with dignity.

i truly hope he is reincarnated as something special and beautiful, like OG kush

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post #24 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 07:14 AM
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Meh, kinda missing the point.

Dude was exercising his 2nd Amendment right in a way a lot of hardcore gun advocates can only dream about and he lost his life because of it. Have been similar cases previously including the one I linked in the OP. Where is the ultimate 2A support from NRA in these situations? Dead silent. Weird.

It's how the situation is treated by the people that should be the deceased's greatest advocates. "Well he shouldn't have pulled his gun out" What?! That's what the staunch advocates constantly rave on and on about: stopping a bad guy shooter because they've got their weapon and can stop the situation from continuing because "when you've only got seconds to spare, the police are only minutes away".

If the dude was white, that side of the spectrum would not be nearly so quiet. If he was white, it's likely the cop wouldn't have assumed him to be the perpetrator, especially if the eye witness accounts are true that other mall goers had their guns drawn in response but didn't get shot by police officers.

Same story every time. I'm sure the NRA is holding off on making a statement just in case they find out the guy stole a pack of gum when he was six years old so it was a justified shoot...
I’m not missing any point. He can’t answer a direct question, and I feel no need to proceed until he can answer one simple question. It’s real easy. Would he have been shot had he not been holding a gun?
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This is pathetic. I'll answer your question.

Had he not had a gun, do I still think he would have been shot? No, but how can you consider that a defense? There were numerous white people also with their conceal carry weapon drawn, none of which were shot on site as witnesses have described the shooting of EJ Bradford.

You are basically saying that hey, if you're black, don't have a gun because being black with a gun will get you shot. I guess the second amendment only applies to white people.
What’s pathetic is the terrible assumptions you guys are making, knowing basically zero facts, other than a innocent black man got shot, and now it’s because the cop is racist.

So since you’ve made such an informed decisions on this, tell me how many of these “numerous white people with with their concealed carry weapons drawn” the particular cop involved in this shooting saw, before he made the decision to shoot the black guy? Hell, how many were there? Were they fleeing the scene?

Tell me exactly what the guy that got shot was doing with his gun? Who and/or where was it pointed at? Was he running? Was he barracaded behind something? What exactly was he doing?


And your last sentence is astounding. I’m not saying that at all, and it’s just like you to make these kind of assumptions based on things you make up in your head. You’re no different than the media. See, the obvious answer to my question is no, but that doesn’t seem to matter either. And since that’s the obvious answer, you make a terrible assumption that black people shouldn’t carry guns was my point, just like you make terrible assumptions on a situation that you know absolutely nothing about what happened. My point is the officer saw a guy with a gun, and made a poor decision to shoot him before properly assessing the scene. Does that mean it was because he was black, or because he was holding a gun? Maybe in the next few days it comes out that the cop is a raging racist that hates black people. Maybe the body cam footage shows the victim was the first person the cop saw holding a gun, and made a bad choice. If it’s the second scenerio, is it still racist? If the cop were black and the victim white, would it still be racist? Now GTFO wth your placing of words about concealed carry should only apply to white people.

Let me play your assumption game. So what you’re basically saying is that the cop that shot this guy, looked around at all the people with their concealed carry weapons drawn, looked at each individual person, and said oh hey, there’s a black guy, and shot him. You should get a job at any major media outlet. You’d do a great job there.

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post #25 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 07:55 AM
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well i stand by what i said. if he wasn't holding his gun in that particular moment, he likely wouldn't have been shot. i think we can all agree on that. this is a lesson we can all learn from. and yes, this is me monday morning quarterbacking, if you want to call it that.
I don't agree with that. We just had a security guard holding a guy to the ground, no weapon drawn, people saying he's security, get shot by a cop outside Chicago. Maybe if he'd immediately dropped to the fetal position he'd be okay.

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i want to make it very clear that i'm not blaming him, just pointing out after the fact that this is how things can go wrong. this is not the first time something like this has happened. a person shouldn't have to worry about being shot by cops when using their weapon lawfully and in self defense, but as seen here, it's an unfortunate reality that you DO have to worry about when carrying, and you need to have a plan to minimize the possibility of that happening. the cops were wrong to immediately shoot him, period. ALL gun carriers need to understand this risk and act accordingly. again, this does not absolve the police of responsibility.

do you happen to have a link that explains the situation in detail? i have a lot of questions. was the victim hiding with his gun out or walking around? what about the other CCW holders? did the police see any other citizens with guns before seeing the victim, or was he the first person they saw with a gun? if they saw any CCW holders before him, were any of them black?

i have a really hard time with the narrative seemingly implying there were a lot of white CCW holders with their weapons drawn, the police walked right past them, then saw the victim and said "black man bad" and shot him.

if they heard gunshots, and he was the first person they saw with a gun, then any other CCW holders with weapons drawn are irrelevant, but that doesn't excuse this "shoot first, ask questions later" bullshit.

my guess is that they heard gunshots, he was the first person they saw with a gun, and they shot him. they should not have shot him immediately, and knowing what we know now, they obviously shouldn't have shot him at all. i just don't think these cops pushed their way through a crowd of white people holding guns and shot him because a black guy with a gun is obviously the bad guy.

either way, it's clear that these cops need better training, or this department needs better cops.

with all of that said, i applaud the guy for having the balls to stand up for himself. it sounds like he only had the best of intentions, and though his death was unfair, he died with dignity.

i truly hope he is reincarnated as something special and beautiful, like OG kush
20% of adults in Alabama have a CCW. I can't say whether or not he was the first person seen with their gun drawn, only that there are multiple reports by people on scene that numerous people had their weapon drawn. Hoover PD posted a brief summary on their twitter, although they also initially posted that Bradford was the shooter and this cop was a hero without doing any actual fucking police work so maybe they'll change their story again down the road. God damn criminals changing up their story as scrutiny sets in. Oh wait...

---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------

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Let me play your assumption game. So what youíre basically saying is that the cop that shot this guy, looked around at all the people with their concealed carry weapons drawn, looked at each individual person, and said oh hey, thereís a black guy, and shot him. You should get a job at any major media outlet. Youíd do a great job there.
There was a large presence of police officers on scene at the mall prior to the shooting. Alabama has the highest percentage of ccw holders of any state in the country. Going off of eye witness reports of people at the mall according to multiple media outlets, plenty of people had weapons drawn. I don't think it would be a stretch to assume at least one other cop came in contact with or spotted another ccw holder that day in the direct aftermath of the shooting.

I'm not saying this cop was a KKK card holding, burning cross loving guy, but I don't doubt that he saw a black guy with a gun and instantly assumed guilt. The PD already clarified that their statement of Bradford "brandishing" a gun was just that he had a gun on him when police arrived. Something tells me had he had it pointed at the officer, we'd have that information considering how quick they were to label him the shooter initially.
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post #26 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 07:58 AM
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I don't agree with that. We just had a security guard holding a guy to the ground, no weapon drawn, people saying he's security, get shot by a cop outside Chicago. Maybe if he'd immediately dropped to the fetal position he'd be okay.



20% of adults in Alabama have a CCW. I can't say whether or not he was the first person seen with their gun drawn, only that there are multiple reports by people on scene that numerous people had their weapon drawn. Hoover PD posted a brief summary on their twitter, although they also initially posted that Bradford was the shooter and this cop was a hero without doing any actual fucking police work so maybe they'll change their story again down the road. God damn criminals changing up their story as scrutiny sets in. Oh wait...
Lots of hypocrisy going on here. Youíve already deemed it racist without doing any actual police work, and knowing any details on the situation that went down.

---------- Post added at 05:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

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I don't agree with that. We just had a security guard holding a guy to the ground, no weapon drawn, people saying he's security, get shot by a cop outside Chicago. Maybe if he'd immediately dropped to the fetal position he'd be okay.



20% of adults in Alabama have a CCW. I can't say whether or not he was the first person seen with their gun drawn, only that there are multiple reports by people on scene that numerous people had their weapon drawn. Hoover PD posted a brief summary on their twitter, although they also initially posted that Bradford was the shooter and this cop was a hero without doing any actual fucking police work so maybe they'll change their story again down the road. God damn criminals changing up their story as scrutiny sets in. Oh wait...

---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------



There was a large presence of police officers on scene at the mall prior to the shooting. Alabama has the highest percentage of ccw holders of any state in the country. Going off of eye witness reports of people at the mall according to multiple media outlets, plenty of people had weapons drawn. I don't think it would be a stretch to assume at least one other cop came in contact with or spotted another ccw holder that day in the direct aftermath of the shooting.

I'm not saying this cop was a KKK card holding, burning cross loving guy, but I don't doubt that he saw a black guy with a gun and instantly assumed guilt. The PD already clarified that their statement of Bradford "brandishing" a gun was just that he had a gun on him when police arrived. Something tells me had he had it pointed at the officer, we'd have that information considering how quick they were to label him the shooter initially.

And did any of those other cops shoot anyone, black or white? Were all the others that the cops came into contact with white? No other blacks at all?

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post #27 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 08:09 AM
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Lots of hypocrisy going on here. Youíve already deemed it racist without doing any actual police work, and knowing any details on the situation that went down.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that as just another asshole throwing his opinion in on the internet I needed to be held to the standards of the Alabama Police Department's investigation standards.

As soon as I collect my check from the Alabama tax payer I'll make sure to issue a twitter statement clarifying that maybe the cop wasn't racist.

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post #28 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 08:18 AM
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I'm sorry, I didn't realize that as just another asshole throwing his opinion in on the internet I needed to be held to the standards of the Alabama Police Department's investigation standards.

As soon as I collect my check from the Alabama tax payer I'll make sure to issue a twitter statement clarifying that maybe the cop wasn't racist.
I guess if I’m going to call something racist, or anything else, I’d like to think it is based on something other than an incident between people of two different races, with basically no other details. Anymore, if a white person says or does anything to anyone black, it’s automatically “racist.” Just like the very title of this story and my first post. There are still no details on how the whole incident went down. It should read something to the effect of “innocent man shot by police.” Do you know what happened? Absolutely not. So why, with no facts or information, was it racist? Why was it a white cop killing a black man, rather than a cop shoots an innocent man? The media, and other people of the public go straight to race, without knowing anything, and once that box is opened, it’s a downward spiral that can not be reversed.



Just like you, not being able to answer any question I’ve asked in regards to the situation that went down. You don’t know, so how can you just instantly go to the guy being black is the reason he was shot? It’s absurd. We hear it in the media so much, that it’s just a reflex for people when they hear white guy shoots black guy. OMG! IT HAD TO BE RACIALLY MOTIVATED!!! No..........no it didn’t.

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post #29 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 08:20 AM
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The fact they instantly assumed they'd killed the shooter at that point is enough for me. All you have on him is the fact he possessed a weapon in the most gun-toting state, in the most gun happy country in the world. Well, and the fact he was black.
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post #30 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 08:32 AM
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The fact they instantly assumed they'd killed the shooter at that point is enough for me. All you have on him is the fact he possessed a weapon in the most gun-toting state, in the most gun happy country in the world. Well, and the fact he was black.
So are you assuming the reason they thought they had killed the shooter, was because he was black? Smh

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post #31 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 08:44 AM
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When outlets are reporting that the cop who shot him fired his weapon nearly automatically when he saw him, and then called that the shooter was down, yeah I do. You have nothing to go on but two things, and those two things clearly led the cop to believe he was guilty, again, in the heart of gun loving America.

Hell, they plastered his face all over the fucking news claiming he was guilty before stopping to realize that he wasn't. But you're shaking your head at me. el oh el
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post #32 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 08:52 AM
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You realize that your mentality is absolutely no different than what you perceive as the mentality of the cop, right? You think he made a decision based on race, with no facts. You’re doing the same.

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post #33 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Iím not missing any point. He canít answer a direct question, and I feel no need to proceed until he can answer one simple question. Itís real easy. Would he have been shot had he not been holding a gun?
I'll answer for him: no, he likely wouldn't have gotten shot (by the police at least)


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Whatís pathetic is the terrible assumptions you guys are making, knowing basically zero facts, other than a innocent black man got shot, and now itís because the cop is racist.
So this is where the nuanced discussion of differentiating between "being a racist" and "systemic racism". Is the cop "a racist" as defined by hating people of different skin tone? Maybe, maybe not. That's not something we'll know for certain, obviously. (but it is Alabama soooooooo [just kidding....kind of...])

However, tribalism is a very real thing and is an evolutionary characteristic that you would hope humans can at some point overcome. We're all influenced by it in one way or another, it's just a matter of whether we recognize it and try to not immediately make assumptions or snap judgements about people just from a quick glance. Hell, I do it. I just try to remind myself that it's kind of objectively fucked up and try to work on it. However, I don't have the law to back me up if I decide to kill a person all willy nilly based on snap judgement, so it's a bit less of a big deal.

Through police officers' own interactions or outside influence or both, they're going to be more suspicious of a black person and so yes, there is a very real chance this specific cop saw other CCW holders who were not black and disregarded them as not a threat until he got to this guy.

The "systemic" part in that form of racism would take an entire book to unpack and I don't expect you to agree with that idea since you "tell the truth, deal with it" but maybe some day it'll click. At the very least, maybe some other person will understand.

Regardless of how much you disagree with BLM, that's the basis of their whole movement. It's not that "only black lives matter" it's that "black lives also matter". There are so many cases like this where the victim is completely innocent and acting exactly in line with everything being asked of them (hell in some instances literally doing every single thing an officer commands them to do in that exact instant and still getting shot) and instead of going "holy shit we made a huge mistake" it immediately goes to "holy shit, we need to dig up any piece of dirt we can on this person to make people think it's not a big deal that we fucking killed them".

I mean, ask why our Lord and Savior Ronald Reagan was a proponent of a sweeping gun control initiative back in the 60's.
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post #34 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 03:43 PM
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LEO here so I’ll try to give my perspective. FBI statistics show more whites are killed by police then blacks even though blacks represent only 13.4% of the population while whites are closer to 60%. The media LOVES when a white cop shoot a black man. Before the body cools off they have already labeled the officer as a KKK grand master shin headed nazi. They jump on that story like a bitch in heat.

Statistics also show that white cops will hesitate even when justified if the suspect is black due to all the negative backlash from the media. This has caused officers to lose their life because of it. Remember the whole, “hands up don’t shoot” bullshit? That was all a lie and ruin that officer’s career and life in that town.


For me if I’m responding to a man with a gun, the area of town makes a difference. Of course you’ll be more on edge in the ghetto full of crime vs a gated community, anyone would. Black Panther president out of Houston went on a shoot or don’t shoot scenario and it change do his outlook dramatically when he shot a unarmed person and even how he emptied his mag without knowing.

A person dress and persona play more of a role than color of their skin IMO. I roll up and see a white dude with wearing a Hells Angel vest I’m going to be much more assertive with my commands vs a person wearing business attire. That goes for ALL ethnicites.

Are there racist cops out there. Yeah. Some slip through the cracks but eventually get washed out. Yes come cops make mistakes during a high stress encounter and making a split second decision. The biggest problem is still lack of compliance with citizens and police. Even if you know for a fact you’re right and the officer is wrong just comply. Staring down the barrel of a gun is not the time to argue. Just comply and live to exercise your rights to a fair trail. But people love the idea of making national news or going FB live. Gotta get those “likes.”
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post #35 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 04:50 PM
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How a person dresses or looks determines the first impression. It doesn’t matter the color of their skin in my book. You dress like a thug, skin head, gangbanger, or trailer park trash you will most likely get perceived as such by the police and general public.

I you’re going to rob the 7-11, just change into a suit and tie afterward and stand on the corner with a bible preaching and the police wouldn’t look at you twice.
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post #36 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 07:15 PM
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Wow! You guys really think the guy was shot because heís black. Thatís unbelievable to a level headed person. I know youíre too proud and pretentious to think youíre keeping racism alive, but you should give it a real consideration. I could post endless black on white crime where nobody cries racism, but that seems okay to you guys. Itís seriously unfathomable to any normal person. This guy made a mistake. The cop also did the wrong thing. That doesnít make it racist. JUST BECAUSE A WHITE PERSON SHOOTS A BLACK PERSON DOESNT MEAN IT RACIST. Racism will never die with this mentality. Bet that.


My god, if white people cried racism and had a riot every time the roles were reversed, the world would burn down.....but thatís okay with the liberal crowd.
NO....I think it was a factor in how quickly that situation got to that level. I agree with you. Not enough black on white crime gets reported but that STILL doesn't negate the fact that black men are being shot for less than legitimate reasons.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare69 View Post
LEO here so Iíll try to give my perspective. FBI statistics show more whites are killed by police then blacks even though blacks represent only 13.4% of the population while whites are closer to 60%. The media LOVES when a white cop shoot a black man. Before the body cools off they have already labeled the officer as a KKK grand master shin headed nazi. They jump on that story like a bitch in heat.
Is it that they like to jump on the story because it was a white cop or was it because the black "perp" was unarmed at the time and the video showing the encounter shows a clear case of shoot first ask questions later?

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Originally Posted by Nightmare69 View Post
Statistics also show that white cops will hesitate even when justified if the suspect is black due to all the negative backlash from the media. This has caused officers to lose their life because of it. Remember the whole, ďhands up donít shootĒ bullshit? That was all a lie and ruin that officerís career and life in that town.
I'd love to see the statistics you are quoting and who has collated the information.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare69 View Post
For me if Iím responding to a man with a gun, the area of town makes a difference. Of course youíll be more on edge in the ghetto full of crime vs a gated community, anyone would. Black Panther president out of Houston went on a shoot or donít shoot scenario and it change do his outlook dramatically when he shot a unarmed person and even how he emptied his mag without knowing.

A person dress and persona play more of a role than color of their skin IMO. I roll up and see a white dude with wearing a Hells Angel vest Iím going to be much more assertive with my commands vs a person wearing business attire. That goes for ALL ethnicites.
Agreed. I went through the shoot/no shoot training and I came to the same conclusion. Again, whenever I see a shooting reported I always try and assess the situation for what it is. Yes there are bad guys out there and some of them are black. What is worrisome is when the person shot is an unarmed black man is shot in a situation that doesn't seem to show any real danger for the officer.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare69 View Post
Are there racist cops out there. Yeah. Some slip through the cracks but eventually get washed out. Yes come cops make mistakes during a high stress encounter and making a split second decision. The biggest problem is still lack of compliance with citizens and police. Even if you know for a fact youíre right and the officer is wrong just comply. Staring down the barrel of a gun is not the time to argue. Just comply and live to exercise your rights to a fair trail. But people love the idea of making national news or going FB live. Gotta get those ďlikes.Ē
I disagree with your characterization but do agree about the split second decision making. The brotherhood allows a lot of the behavior that gets exposed illegal behavior included. You can't tell me that when a group of LEO's get together and start drinking that they go back with a "designated driver". Typically when I get into a drinkathon with my LEO buddies they call in another squad car to escort them to their homes. That is against the law yet it happens on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare69 View Post
How a person dresses or looks determines the first impression. It doesnít matter the color of their skin in my book. You dress like a thug, skin head, gangbanger, or trailer park trash you will most likely get perceived as such by the police and general public.

I youíre going to rob the 7-11, just change into a suit and tie afterward and stand on the corner with a bible preaching and the police wouldnít look at you twice.
But why? I get that it's a natural reaction but your training should keep that from happening. What you just described is profiling. The same thing you rail about when people accuse all cops of being racist or evil.

John
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post #37 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BWAL View Post
aren't more white people shot by cops than black people?

it sounds like the cops screwed up here, however the "good guy with the gun" could have handled things a little better as well. before you decide to carry, you need to really understand the responsibility and dangers involved, such as things like this happening. you never brandish your gun unless you are planning on killing an attacker. you don't hold them at gun point, you don't threaten them, you either run away or you shoot to kill as a last resort. after the threat is neutralized, you drop your gun (release mag and clear it first if possible), then you stand on it and call the cops or wait for them to show up with your hands up. at least that's what i've always been taught.
You do not, ever, "drop your gun". You reholster it if, and only if, the threat is eliminated. You keep it at the ready, loaded (unless you shot it empty and have no reload) and only relinquish it upon command from law enforcement.
You do not have it in hand, or else you're going to get shot. If you shoot it empty and the threat is not eliminated, you reholster and attempt escape.

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by brtnstrns View Post
I'm assuming the idea is supposed to be that you don't draw until your life is in immediate danger. "Immediate danger" is subjective in a high stress situation like that.

I'd argue that there is, however, a large portion of people that tout the idea that they have their CCL to stop situations like these kinds of shootings, or else the whole "bad guy with a gun/good guy with a gun" statement wouldn't really hold any water.

So then what the fuck is the point? You're either gonna get potentially blasted by the perpetrator or potentially blasted by the police that think you're the perpetrator.

I wouldn't argue against CCL or anything like that. I'm just arguing against the idea that a lot of these guys all believe they have their concealed carry to stop shooters like this, but ultimately, it really may be detrimental to the point of getting shot anyway, so then why act like you're going to stop a mass shooter some day?
I've said many times, the point of having a CCL is not to "stop" situations like this, but to give a law abiding citizen the appropriate tools to defend themselves if a situation that puts them in immediate danger arises.

Sadly, as with many other things, people have their own delusions of grandeur and that fucks things up.
There are several situations where I feel that people who have guns should not have them, because they have the wrong attitude about using them. That doesn't mean I support any kind of ban, because I know that 90% of the time they're all talk, no action. The other 10% never get the opportunity because contrary to popular belief, these situations are very rare.

Too many people have the attitude that "I've got a gun, I'll be a hero" when they should be thinking, "I'm in immediate danger, can I escape without harm coming to me, or do I need to defend myself?"

Clearly, I've put a LOT of thought into my reactions, as well as when and why I would/should draw my weapon. I have yet to be in a situation in public where I've even considered putting my hand near my weapon, much less draw it. In my own home, I've only ever pulled it out defensively twice. Once when my dumbass neighbor fired his 9mm into the wooded area near our houses (didn't know that's what was going on at the time, just heard 17 rapid gunshots, found out about a week later when he mentioned it to me, dumbass). I was on the phone with 911 at the time, who didn't want to believe it was gunshots by the way. Trust me, I know the difference. Second time was when my ex wife was throwing rocks at my windows. Had the gun at my side while I assessed the situation, again while on the phone with 911, only to be told they didn't want to get involved when they found out it was my ex throwing rocks. Never did I raise my gun, just had it in case I needed it.

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Novanutcase View Post
I'll say this...in response to your question about color...Ö

YES! I BELIEVE THAT COLOR HAD A PART IN THE SHOOTING! Now....before you go on some diatribe about how I'm some libtard pulling the race card AGAIN you miss the point that being that when a policeman sees a black man with a gun in his hand he is more apt to think negatively of that suspect than a white man. Yes they are both viewed as dangerous but it seems that the time it takes to get to the decision in regards to returning fire seems to come up much faster when it's a black man versus a white man. That goes for black cops too. You can tell me all about your own personal experiences but I get this from cops themselves. I'm friends with a good amount of LEO's here in L.A. We go out and eat and drink together fairly frequently. We've had lots of discussions about this very subject. They've all told me that when they get a call into a black area they are always more on alert than if they roll into a predominately white area. Even the black officers have told me the same thing. It's just the nature of the beast. The perception that, not just white, but most people have of black people when they are in that type of situation. I'll even go as far as saying that some of it is deserved in the way parts of the black culture are personified by blacks themselves.

NOW....that being what it is I will say that I've had the privilege of getting a chance to participate in a shoot/no shoot drill through a buddy of mine that is a higher up in the LAPD hierarchy. I walked away with a new respect for what cops go through when they have to make that terrible decision. It's a split second call that, honestly, is never certain until after you pull the trigger. After that it's too late. So......while I am against racial profiling especially when it ends up with someone dead I get that it's a tough decision in many instances.

John
Question.

Was the original suspect black, or white? Were the police responding to reports of a black man shooting up the mall, or what?

Not saying that the shooting was justified, nor that it was racially motivated, or that black men are more likely to be shot, but if the police are told that a black man is shooting up the mall, and they come across a black man holding a gun, they're going to be somewhat inclined to start shooting. Not justifying it, but saying it's one reason that the police made a bad call.

---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by brtnstrns View Post
Meh, kinda missing the point.

Dude was exercising his 2nd Amendment right in a way a lot of hardcore gun advocates can only dream about and he lost his life because of it. Have been similar cases previously including the one I linked in the OP. Where is the ultimate 2A support from NRA in these situations? Dead silent. Weird.
The NRA and every concealed carry class I've ever taken (NRA sponsored) state VERY clearly what to and not to do in a situation where you draw your weapon. The primary one being, holster your weapon BEFORE the police show up, or you're probably going to be shot, because the police are primarily concerned with protecting their own lives first, which is sensible.
Quote:
It's how the situation is treated by the people that should be the deceased's greatest advocates. "Well he shouldn't have pulled his gun out" What?! That's what the staunch advocates constantly rave on and on about: stopping a bad guy shooter because they've got their weapon and can stop the situation from continuing because "when you've only got seconds to spare, the police are only minutes away".
That's not what the NRA, or concealed carry advocates with brains are trying to make happen.
The thing we (sensible people) want is for those of us who carry concealed to do so safely. A big part of that is your own personal safety, which is the whole point of carrying a gun. If you HAVE to draw your gun, you do it to immediately defend yourself. If you're running away, keep your gun holstered so it doesn't shoot anyone else. If you're running for cover and shooting, then the perp is in your immediate area and the cops are probably not there yet. If you're not aiming at a bad guy, the gun belongs IN YOUR HOLSTER. Cops don't shoot people not holding guns generally speaking.
Quote:
If the dude was white, that side of the spectrum would not be nearly so quiet. If he was white, it's likely the cop wouldn't have assumed him to be the perpetrator, especially if the eye witness accounts are true that other mall goers had their guns drawn in response but didn't get shot by police officers.

Same story every time. I'm sure the NRA is holding off on making a statement just in case they find out the guy stole a pack of gum when he was six years old so it was a justified shoot...
Eyewitness accounts are not worth a shit. People say shit to get on the news. People mis-remember a lot due to excitement, fear, etc. There is also the high probability that some of the people holding their guns (which is a BAD idea) ran out other exits staffed by more sensible officers who chose not to shoot at anyone holding a gun, but only at those pointing guns at them.

Not all police are trigger happy idiots. Not all concealed carriers are morons. As I said earlier, two wrongs here, sad situation that a "good guy" got shot, but the rest of us concealed carriers need to learn from it. Keep it holstered UNLESS you're firing. Period.

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixpointslow View Post
I think his blackness had to do with what being black had to do with it.

---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 AM ----------



Wait a minute... I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I'm too lazy to go searching, but have you not been one of the people on here to support the concept of good people with guns stopping bad people with guns? And that gun free zones only hurt law abiding citizens? If I'm right and you have generally said and/or agreed with these notions, that sounds a whole lot like trying to have it both ways.

I can be a proponent of more good guys with guns, and the ability of good guys with guns being able to stop bad guys with guns, while at the same time practicing and promoting being reasonable AND responsible with your gun while you are carrying it.

I wasn't at this mall, I don't know the layout, don't know where the perp was in relation to the guy who was shot, whether shots were still being fired, etc. All I do know is that in a similar situation, I would not draw MY gun UNLESS I had the perp in my immediate area, AND the ability to get a good shot at the perp. If those conditions were met, I'd draw and fire, and fire until the threat was either eliminated or out of ammunition. Then, assuming no one else starts shooting at me, I'd holster my gun and alert the authorities and wait for them to take my gun as evidence, with it NOT IN MY HAND so I don't get shot. I can very much have it both ways, have people carry guns, and have them do it responsibly so that they don't get shot by the cops.

---------- Post added at 01:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------
Quote:
Quote:

Again, it's interesting how someone who's been big on this bandwagon is suddenly backpedaling. The actual threat wasn't neutralized, so at what point was this guy supposed to transition from being in a life or death situation to understanding the needs of police officers to not ever see a black man holding a gun? Literally numerous people had guns drawn here (good ole' Alabama) but this man gets shot allegedly "milliseconds" after cops rolled up (according to the people who were actually there, not us Monday morning QB's).

Eyewitness reports suck balls. They rarely reflect the actual events, but instead their recollection, which is very biased/twisted. Interview 4 people after any event, be it a car accident, shooting, speech, etc and they'll all tell varying details depending on what stands out in their own heads.
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---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 AM ----------
Quote:

This is pathetic. I'll answer your question.

Had he not had a gun, do I still think he would have been shot? No, but how can you consider that a defense? There were numerous white people also with their conceal carry weapon drawn, none of which were shot on site as witnesses have described the shooting of EJ Bradford.

You are basically saying that hey, if you're black, don't have a gun because being black with a gun will get you shot. I guess the second amendment only applies to white people.
Honestly, all those white people shouldn't have been running with their guns drawn. Secondly, as I asked above, was the perp black or white? Not justifying the police's actions, but if they're called to a shooting at a mall and they're told the shooter is black, who do you think is going to get shot? And do you know why the perp wasn't shot? He had stashed the gun and ran out with the crowd, which is a tactically smart move for a douchebag.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixpointslow View Post
I don't agree with that. We just had a security guard holding a guy to the ground, no weapon drawn, people saying he's security, get shot by a cop outside Chicago. Maybe if he'd immediately dropped to the fetal position he'd be okay.
As I said above, maybe the police shouldn't run in guns blazing and assess the situation better?
I'm not putting much blame on the guy who was shot. It's not what I would have done, but apparently a lot of people thought running around guns drawn was appropriate. Clearly, it wasn't. The officer who shot him should be assessed. His bodycam should be analyzed, and this situation should be used as a "what not to do" in further police training AND CCW training.
Quote:


20% of adults in Alabama have a CCW. I can't say whether or not he was the first person seen with their gun drawn, only that there are multiple reports by people on scene that numerous people had their weapon drawn. Hoover PD posted a brief summary on their twitter, although they also initially posted that Bradford was the shooter and this cop was a hero without doing any actual fucking police work so maybe they'll change their story again down the road. God damn criminals changing up their story as scrutiny sets in. Oh wait...

---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------



There was a large presence of police officers on scene at the mall prior to the shooting. Alabama has the highest percentage of ccw holders of any state in the country. Going off of eye witness reports of people at the mall according to multiple media outlets, plenty of people had weapons drawn. I don't think it would be a stretch to assume at least one other cop came in contact with or spotted another ccw holder that day in the direct aftermath of the shooting.

I'm not saying this cop was a KKK card holding, burning cross loving guy, but I don't doubt that he saw a black guy with a gun and instantly assumed guilt. The PD already clarified that their statement of Bradford "brandishing" a gun was just that he had a gun on him when police arrived. Something tells me had he had it pointed at the officer, we'd have that information considering how quick they were to label him the shooter initially.

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post #38 of 142 Old November 27th, 2018, 11:11 PM
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No amount of training will over ride your natural instincts. I will always be more alert and ready to draw on someone dressed like a gang banger. It’s just human nature as they are known for violence and illegal activity. My training has taught me to watch people’s hands as they are what will kill you.

I’ve given 2 drunk cops a ride home. I’ve given many more citizens a ride or allowed them to call a friend vs working a DWI and towing their vehicle. The only reason was they were honest and didn’t BS me when I asked them how much they had to drink. When the suspect is stumbling and says they only had 2 beers, they get to stay in the county B&B. The last guy strait up told me he drank a 12 pack. He got to call his gf for a ride home and only got a warning for failure to maintain a single lane of traffic. If there is no property damage or injury then we have discretion.

This is the best example of how quick a routine stop and turn to a deadly force situation. These officers could have easily killed this perp.

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post #39 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightmare69 View Post
How a person dresses or looks determines the first impression. It doesn’t matter the color of their skin in my book. You dress like a thug, skin head, gangbanger, or trailer park trash you will most likely get perceived as such by the police and general public.

I you’re going to rob the 7-11, just change into a suit and tie afterward and stand on the corner with a bible preaching and the police wouldn’t look at you twice.
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No amount of training will over ride your natural instincts. I will always be more alert and ready to draw on someone dressed like a gang banger. It’s just human nature as they are known for violence and illegal activity
Other than the clown suits we all see on TV and movies how exactly does one spot the attire of a gang banger? Across the nation when we are all out there and wanna keep an eye out for gang bangers what are the signs we should look for to spot them that separates them from everyone else and makes that citizen or citizens a possible obvious menace to society or prone to violence or illegal activity?

Is it the same type of thing as spotting an illegal aliens I remember some time back here on this forum a member said you just know illegals wen you see them bc they have this look. Is it the same as spotting a potential terrorist or possible mass shooter? I need to know these signs as I drive around out there daily with my kids hell I know over seas you couldn’t tell friend from foe you could be just rolling and shit would hit the fan out nowhere and everyone looked the same.

So here in the states as you deal with citizens on the daily and see the first impressions what about their clothes, demeanor etc... makes them potentially a dangerous person before an introduction or interaction?

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post #40 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 10:48 AM
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I'll answer for him: no, he likely wouldn't have gotten shot (by the police at least)




So this is where the nuanced discussion of differentiating between "being a racist" and "systemic racism". Is the cop "a racist" as defined by hating people of different skin tone? Maybe, maybe not. That's not something we'll know for certain, obviously. (but it is Alabama soooooooo [just kidding....kind of...])

However, tribalism is a very real thing and is an evolutionary characteristic that you would hope humans can at some point overcome. We're all influenced by it in one way or another, it's just a matter of whether we recognize it and try to not immediately make assumptions or snap judgements about people just from a quick glance. Hell, I do it. I just try to remind myself that it's kind of objectively fucked up and try to work on it. However, I don't have the law to back me up if I decide to kill a person all willy nilly based on snap judgement, so it's a bit less of a big deal.

Through police officers' own interactions or outside influence or both, they're going to be more suspicious of a black person and so yes, there is a very real chance this specific cop saw other CCW holders who were not black and disregarded them as not a threat until he got to this guy.

The "systemic" part in that form of racism would take an entire book to unpack and I don't expect you to agree with that idea since you "tell the truth, deal with it" but maybe some day it'll click. At the very least, maybe some other person will understand.

Regardless of how much you disagree with BLM, that's the basis of their whole movement. It's not that "only black lives matter" it's that "black lives also matter". There are so many cases like this where the victim is completely innocent and acting exactly in line with everything being asked of them (hell in some instances literally doing every single thing an officer commands them to do in that exact instant and still getting shot) and instead of going "holy shit we made a huge mistake" it immediately goes to "holy shit, we need to dig up any piece of dirt we can on this person to make people think it's not a big deal that we fucking killed them".

I mean, ask why our Lord and Savior Ronald Reagan was a proponent of a sweeping gun control initiative back in the 60's.

Now you’re missing the point. My initial comment was in regards to why is had to be labeled racial, right off the bat? And to sit here and say that race was a factor is a dangerous assumption that you, the media, and half the country buy into without knowing any details at all. That is the issue I take with all of this. It’s labeled that way 30 seconds after it happens. As I alluded to earlier, there’s a list of questions that nobody here can answer regarding the situation, yet you guys are sold race was a factor. The labeling of an relatively unknown situation is ridiculous. You can not make an informed opinion with the information you know. All you can do is make an uninformed assumption, and the problem is that the media does the same. It’s bullshit.


And I don’t disagree with BLM. Why would I? But to talk about it the way you do here is sure not what I see all over the country. That may have been the initial idea, but that’s not how it’s being carried out. Peaceful demonstrations may happen, but I’ve witnessed plenty of violent ones myself. You make it sound like cops are shooting up black people like target practice with no consequences. Has it happened. Yes, we’ve all seen it. Does it just happen to black people? Nope.



Back to the point. The labeling of this situation as being racist right off the bat is ridiculous. How about titling it “innocent man shot by police,” and then modify it as actual details surface, and use facts instead of poor assumptions? You absolutely can not say race was a factor because you know nothing of the situation. Maybe it was a factor? But I don’t know, and neither do you, and labeling every shooting of a black by a white does nothing to help the BLM movement.
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I'll toss that dude's salad

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