aren't more white people shot by cops than black people?
it sounds like the cops screwed up here, however the "good guy with the gun" could have handled things a little better as well. before you decide to carry, you need to really understand the responsibility and dangers involved, such as things like this happening. you never brandish your gun unless you are planning on killing an attacker. you don't hold them at gun point, you don't threaten them, you either run away or you shoot to kill as a last resort. after the threat is neutralized, you drop your gun (release mag and clear it first if possible), then you stand on it and call the cops or wait for them to show up with your hands up. at least that's what i've always been taught.
You do not, ever, "drop your gun". You reholster it if, and only if, the threat is eliminated. You keep it at the ready, loaded (unless you shot it empty and have no reload) and only relinquish it upon command from law enforcement.
You do not have it in hand, or else you're going to get shot. If you shoot it empty and the threat is not eliminated, you reholster and attempt escape.
---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------
I'm assuming the idea is supposed to be that you don't draw until your life is in immediate danger. "Immediate danger" is subjective in a high stress situation like that.
I'd argue that there is, however, a large portion of people that tout the idea that they have their CCL to stop situations like these kinds of shootings, or else the whole "bad guy with a gun/good guy with a gun" statement wouldn't really hold any water.
So then what the fuck is the point? You're either gonna get potentially blasted by the perpetrator or potentially blasted by the police that think you're the perpetrator.
I wouldn't argue against CCL or anything like that. I'm just arguing against the idea that a lot of these guys all believe they have their concealed carry to stop shooters like this, but ultimately, it really may be detrimental to the point of getting shot anyway, so then why act like you're going to stop a mass shooter some day?
I've said many times, the point of having a CCL is not to "stop" situations like this, but to give a law abiding citizen the appropriate tools to defend themselves if a situation that puts them in immediate danger arises.
Sadly, as with many other things, people have their own delusions of grandeur and that fucks things up.
There are several situations where I feel that people who have guns should not have them, because they have the wrong attitude about using them. That doesn't mean I support any kind of ban, because I know that 90% of the time they're all talk, no action. The other 10% never get the opportunity because contrary to popular belief, these situations are very rare.
Too many people have the attitude that "I've got a gun, I'll be a hero" when they should be thinking, "I'm in immediate danger, can I escape without harm coming to me, or do I need to defend myself?"
Clearly, I've put a LOT of thought into my reactions, as well as when and why I would/should draw my weapon. I have yet to be in a situation in public where I've even considered putting my hand near my weapon, much less draw it. In my own home, I've only ever pulled it out defensively twice. Once when my dumbass neighbor fired his 9mm into the wooded area near our houses (didn't know that's what was going on at the time, just heard 17 rapid gunshots, found out about a week later when he mentioned it to me, dumbass). I was on the phone with 911 at the time, who didn't want to believe it was gunshots by the way. Trust me, I know the difference. Second time was when my ex wife was throwing rocks at my windows. Had the gun at my side while I assessed the situation, again while on the phone with 911, only to be told they didn't want to get involved when they found out it was my ex throwing rocks. Never did I raise my gun, just had it in case I needed it.
---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------
I'll say this...in response to your question about color...Ö
YES! I BELIEVE THAT COLOR HAD A PART IN THE SHOOTING! Now....before you go on some diatribe about how I'm some libtard pulling the race card AGAIN you miss the point that being that when a policeman sees a black man with a gun in his hand he is more apt to think negatively of that suspect than a white man. Yes they are both viewed as dangerous but it seems that the time it takes to get to the decision in regards to returning fire seems to come up much faster when it's a black man versus a white man. That goes for black cops too. You can tell me all about your own personal experiences but I get this from cops themselves. I'm friends with a good amount of LEO's here in L.A. We go out and eat and drink together fairly frequently. We've had lots of discussions about this very subject. They've all told me that when they get a call into a black area they are always more on alert than if they roll into a predominately white area. Even the black officers have told me the same thing. It's just the nature of the beast. The perception that, not just white, but most people have of black people when they are in that type of situation. I'll even go as far as saying that some of it is deserved in the way parts of the black culture are personified by blacks themselves.
NOW....that being what it is I will say that I've had the privilege of getting a chance to participate in a shoot/no shoot drill through a buddy of mine that is a higher up in the LAPD hierarchy. I walked away with a new respect for what cops go through when they have to make that terrible decision. It's a split second call that, honestly, is never certain until after you pull the trigger. After that it's too late. So......while I am against racial profiling especially when it ends up with someone dead I get that it's a tough decision in many instances.
Was the original suspect black, or white? Were the police responding to reports of a black man shooting up the mall, or what?
Not saying that the shooting was justified, nor that it was racially motivated, or that black men are more likely to be shot, but if the police are told that a black man is shooting up the mall, and they come across a black man holding a gun, they're going to be somewhat inclined to start shooting. Not justifying it, but saying it's one reason that the police made a bad call.
---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------
Meh, kinda missing the point.
Dude was exercising his 2nd Amendment right in a way a lot of hardcore gun advocates can only dream about and he lost his life because of it. Have been similar cases previously including the one I linked in the OP. Where is the ultimate 2A support from NRA in these situations? Dead silent. Weird.
The NRA and every concealed carry class I've ever taken (NRA sponsored) state VERY clearly what to and not to do in a situation where you draw your weapon. The primary one being, holster your weapon BEFORE the police show up, or you're probably going to be shot, because the police are primarily concerned with protecting their own lives first, which is sensible.
It's how the situation is treated by the people that should be the deceased's greatest advocates. "Well he shouldn't have pulled his gun out" What?! That's what the staunch advocates constantly rave on and on about: stopping a bad guy shooter because they've got their weapon and can stop the situation from continuing because "when you've only got seconds to spare, the police are only minutes away".
That's not what the NRA, or concealed carry advocates with brains are trying to make happen.
The thing we (sensible people) want is for those of us who carry concealed to do so safely. A big part of that is your own personal safety, which is the whole point of carrying a gun. If you HAVE to draw your gun, you do it to immediately defend yourself. If you're running away, keep your gun holstered so it doesn't shoot anyone else. If you're running for cover and shooting, then the perp is in your immediate area and the cops are probably not there yet. If you're not aiming at a bad guy, the gun belongs IN YOUR HOLSTER. Cops don't shoot people not holding guns generally speaking.
If the dude was white, that side of the spectrum would not be nearly so quiet. If he was white, it's likely the cop wouldn't have assumed him to be the perpetrator, especially if the eye witness accounts are true that other mall goers had their guns drawn in response but didn't get shot by police officers.
Same story every time. I'm sure the NRA is holding off on making a statement just in case they find out the guy stole a pack of gum when he was six years old so it was a justified shoot...
Eyewitness accounts are not worth a shit. People say shit to get on the news. People mis-remember a lot due to excitement, fear, etc. There is also the high probability that some of the people holding their guns (which is a BAD idea) ran out other exits staffed by more sensible officers who chose not to shoot at anyone holding a gun, but only at those pointing guns at them.
Not all police are trigger happy idiots. Not all concealed carriers are morons. As I said earlier, two wrongs here, sad situation that a "good guy" got shot, but the rest of us concealed carriers need to learn from it. Keep it holstered UNLESS you're firing. Period.
---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------
I think his blackness had to do with what being black had to do with it.
---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 AM ----------
Wait a minute... I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I'm too lazy to go searching, but have you not been one of the people on here to support the concept of good people with guns stopping bad people with guns? And that gun free zones only hurt law abiding citizens? If I'm right and you have generally said and/or agreed with these notions, that sounds a whole lot like trying to have it both ways.
I can be a proponent of more good guys with guns, and the ability of good guys with guns being able to stop bad guys with guns, while at the same time practicing and promoting being reasonable AND responsible with your gun while you are carrying it.
I wasn't at this mall, I don't know the layout, don't know where the perp was in relation to the guy who was shot, whether shots were still being fired, etc. All I do know is that in a similar situation, I would not draw MY gun UNLESS I had the perp in my immediate area, AND the ability to get a good shot at the perp. If those conditions were met, I'd draw and fire, and fire until the threat was either eliminated or out of ammunition. Then, assuming no one else starts shooting at me, I'd holster my gun and alert the authorities and wait for them to take my gun as evidence, with it NOT IN MY HAND so I don't get shot. I can very much have it both ways, have people carry guns, and have them do it responsibly so that they don't get shot by the cops.
---------- Post added at 01:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------
Again, it's interesting how someone who's been big on this bandwagon is suddenly backpedaling. The actual threat wasn't neutralized, so at what point was this guy supposed to transition from being in a life or death situation to understanding the needs of police officers to not ever see a black man holding a gun? Literally numerous people had guns drawn here (good ole' Alabama) but this man gets shot allegedly "milliseconds" after cops rolled up (according to the people who were actually there, not us Monday morning QB's).
Eyewitness reports suck balls. They rarely reflect the actual events, but instead their recollection, which is very biased/twisted. Interview 4 people after any event, be it a car accident, shooting, speech, etc and they'll all tell varying details depending on what stands out in their own heads.
---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 AM ----------
This is pathetic. I'll answer your question.
Had he not had a gun, do I still think he would have been shot? No, but how can you consider that a defense? There were numerous white people also with their conceal carry weapon drawn, none of which were shot on site as witnesses have described the shooting of EJ Bradford.
You are basically saying that hey, if you're black, don't have a gun because being black with a gun will get you shot. I guess the second amendment only applies to white people.
Honestly, all those white people shouldn't have been running with their guns drawn. Secondly, as I asked above, was the perp black or white? Not justifying the police's actions, but if they're called to a shooting at a mall and they're told the shooter is black, who do you think is going to get shot? And do you know why the perp wasn't shot? He had stashed the gun and ran out with the crowd, which is a tactically smart move for a douchebag.
---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------
I don't agree with that. We just had a security guard holding a guy to the ground, no weapon drawn, people saying he's security, get shot by a cop outside Chicago. Maybe if he'd immediately dropped to the fetal position he'd be okay.
As I said above, maybe the police shouldn't run in guns blazing and assess the situation better?
I'm not putting much blame on the guy who was shot. It's not what I would have done, but apparently a lot of people thought running around guns drawn was appropriate. Clearly, it wasn't. The officer who shot him should be assessed. His bodycam should be analyzed, and this situation should be used as a "what not to do" in further police training AND CCW training.
20% of adults in Alabama have a CCW. I can't say whether or not he was the first person seen with their gun drawn, only that there are multiple reports by people on scene that numerous people had their weapon drawn. Hoover PD posted a brief summary on their twitter, although they also initially posted that Bradford was the shooter and this cop was a hero without doing any actual fucking police work so maybe they'll change their story again down the road. God damn criminals changing up their story as scrutiny sets in. Oh wait...
---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------
There was a large presence of police officers on scene at the mall prior to the shooting. Alabama has the highest percentage of ccw holders of any state in the country. Going off of eye witness reports of people at the mall according to multiple media outlets, plenty of people had weapons drawn. I don't think it would be a stretch to assume at least one other cop came in contact with or spotted another ccw holder that day in the direct aftermath of the shooting.
I'm not saying this cop was a KKK card holding, burning cross loving guy, but I don't doubt that he saw a black guy with a gun and instantly assumed guilt. The PD already clarified that their statement of Bradford "brandishing" a gun was just that he had a gun on him when police arrived. Something tells me had he had it pointed at the officer, we'd have that information considering how quick they were to label him the shooter initially.