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post #41 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 01:18 PM
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No amount of training will over ride your natural instincts.
I disagree. Our military and police forces train to run to danger, which is normally not a natural instinct. Our training many times overrides natural instinct. I've been trained by repeated use to believe roller coasters are fun, although still somewhat frightening. My natural instinct is to nope right out of there and not ride them, but once I started riding them, I discovered the pleasure outweighed the fear. Not an apples to apples comparison, but it is a case of training overruling natural instinct.

If your natural instinct is to shoot the first person you see with a gun that's not wearing a matching uniform as yours, perhaps you shouldn't be a first responder to a crisis situation in a state with very high concealed carry licensing. Not saying anything about you personally, nor labeling anything as racist, etc. But I do believe based on the very limited info I have, unless the guy was pointing his gun at the officer, he should not have been shot. If the officer in question was too ramped up and not following proper protocol (which it seems he wasn't as there were others with guns drawn, and a high probability that they were of various races), then the officer was negligent in his duty. Doesn't make it racist, but does make it a good thing to remember when training future officers. Also makes it a good training tool for concealed carry classes. As I've said many times, if your gun is drawn, I expect you to be shooting it. If you're not planning on shooting anyone/thing, holster that sidearm.

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I will always be more alert and ready to draw on someone dressed like a gang banger. It’s just human nature as they are known for violence and illegal activity. My training has taught me to watch people’s hands as they are what will kill you.
Now folks are questioning you on "what does a gang banger look like". I get what you're saying, and I can't say you're wrong. But once again, I feel officers should be held to the same standards as the rest of us when it comes to gun safety and appropriate use of force. Again, not claiming any racial issues in this circumstance, but if you're responding to a shooter, and you see multiple people with guns, none of which are pointed at you, should you shoot, or should you assess? I know as a Conceal Carry holder, I have to assess and ONLY shoot if I'm being shot at, drawn on, or someone in my immediate vicinity is being shot at/drawn on/beaten to death. That last one is sketchy too as far as justifiable use of force because so few people understand how much damage someone can do with fists.
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woodman: achieving the impossible since 1967. 1973? 1980? 1985? 1976? whatever, you get my point
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ford's advertising slogan was literally "you can pay for all of it today or you can go fuck yourself"
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post #42 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 01:20 PM
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In is unfortunate but I think race was a factor. In our society I don't think it is possible for it to not be a factor. Like was previously mentioned. Black neighborhoods are perceived as being more dangerous than white neighborhoods. I think this is a misconception. I think inner cities are more dangerous than suburban communities. It doesn't matter what race is living there. I think the perception comes from the fact that a higher percentage of the inner city population is black. There are studies relating this to poverty and studies relating it to a culture of violence. I believe the studies were focused on inner city blacks not rural or suburban blacks. I have never heard of a culture of violence associated with those populations. But based on victim reports there really isn't any evidence of wholesale police racism. This fact check articles covers all of that.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...s-commit-crime

I don't have any idea what the answer might be. When I was stationed in Florida I had a civilian analyst assigned to my department who happened to be black. I was told he was a trouble maker who threatened to go to EEO on any little issue. And he did. He was testing me to see if I would roll over when faced with a career ending complaint. He knew I was a major. What he didn't know was that I was a Mustang, an NCO who became an officer, and I wasn't about to put up with this. My original mentor, the man who trained me so that I made SSGT in three years was a black MSGT. So I said fine but go on your own time because we have a deadline to make. I then left the room. He didn't go.

After that it didn't take long for us to become friends. We sometimes talked about racial problems. As a college graduate he felt the need to volunteer at the projects to give the children there a positive role model. He was a member of the 100 Black Men organization which works with at risk youth. The more we talked the more I became convinced that project housing was a misguided effort to help. One day he was extremely unhappy. He said, "How do I convince a 15 year old girl to not get pregnant when she is fighting with her mother and the government is going to give her an apartment and a paycheck if she does. I think the destruction of the black family and the lack of positive male role models are one of the reasons for high school drop out rates, poverty and crime. With no family youths are turning to gang for a family type relationship.

Even Jesse Jackson said, There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/597...-at-this-stage

I don't have any answers. The police officer made a split second decision. I think racism was involved but not the overt racism of hating all blacks. It was a more subtle racism of just knowing incidents in black communities are more dangerous than incidents in white communities. There will be an investigation and no one will actually know what happened until it is finished.

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post #43 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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I know as a Conceal Carry holder, I have to assess and ONLY shoot if I'm being shot at, drawn on, or someone in my immediate vicinity is being shot at/drawn on/beaten to death. That last one is sketchy too as far as justifiable use of force because so few people understand how much damage someone can do with fists.
Also strange that the military seems to have stricter rules of engagement when dealing with non American citizens. For some reason it's more acceptable for police to shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with our own citizens and get out of it by saying "I feared for my safety" when a soldier overseas in a lot of cases can't even engage a foreign adversary until a shot has been fired or an order has been received by someone who has properly identified the person as a threat.

What's scarier to the average person? A group of men carrying and potentially pointing weapons at you while you're on their home turf but you can't get away with preemptively protecting yourself? Or a guy lying on the ground with his hands in the air trying to calm down an autistic person that they're the caretaker of? Boy, that's a tough one. Can you guess who still has a job?

The whole point of being a trained police officer is that you're expected to behave at a higher standard in high stress situations. If you react the same way any joe dingus would if he had a gun in his hand and was in a stressful situation without training, why the fuck are you even in that job?
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post #44 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 03:33 PM
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Also strange that the military seems to have stricter rules of engagement when dealing with non American citizens. For some reason it's more acceptable for police to shoot first and ask questions later when dealing with our own citizens and get out of it by saying "I feared for my safety" when a soldier overseas in a lot of cases can't even engage a foreign adversary until a shot has been fired or an order has been received by someone who has properly identified the person as a threat.

What's scarier to the average person? A group of men carrying and potentially pointing weapons at you while you're on their home turf but you can't get away with preemptively protecting yourself? Or a guy lying on the ground with his hands in the air trying to calm down an autistic person that they're the caretaker of? Boy, that's a tough one. Can you guess who still has a job?

The whole point of being a trained police officer is that you're expected to behave at a higher standard in high stress situations. If you react the same way any joe dingus would if he had a gun in his hand and was in a stressful situation without training, why the fuck are you even in that job?
Agreed.
I want police to be able to do their job, but I also want them held accountable when they are negligent and make bad calls. I think it's stupid that I can go to jail for shooting an intruder in my own home because of how Minnesota sees the laws while a police officer can shoot an unarmed person who is not resisting arrest, has no sign of a weapon, etc.

Not all police are these bad examples, and I want these bad examples used as a way to train future and current officers on what not to do. If they cannot be taught, get them into another line of work. It's not complicated. Police Chiefs, Mayors, Governors all need to make this a priority, instead of "They're the police, they can do no wrong". Fuck that. I don't care who messes up, be it regular civilian, police civilian, elected official, etc. Hold them accountable to the same standard, no matter what.
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woodman: achieving the impossible since 1967. 1973? 1980? 1985? 1976? whatever, you get my point
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ford's advertising slogan was literally "you can pay for all of it today or you can go fuck yourself"
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post #45 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Agreed.
I want police to be able to do their job, but I also want them held accountable when they are negligent and make bad calls. I think it's stupid that I can go to jail for shooting an intruder in my own home because of how Minnesota sees the laws while a police officer can shoot an unarmed person who is not resisting arrest, has no sign of a weapon, etc.

Not all police are these bad examples, and I want these bad examples used as a way to train future and current officers on what not to do. If they cannot be taught, get them into another line of work. It's not complicated. Police Chiefs, Mayors, Governors all need to make this a priority, instead of "They're the police, they can do no wrong". Fuck that. I don't care who messes up, be it regular civilian, police civilian, elected official, etc. Hold them accountable to the same standard, no matter what.
Exactly. It's not that all cops are awful. The majority of individual police officers I'm sure do their job and do it well and with regard for public safety. Even if I go with my own anecdotal experience, I've only encountered one asshole LEO and it was a young middle-of-fucking-nowhere state trooper that seemed to want to make a name for himself by being 100% convinced that two well groomed late-20s white dudes in a hippy van just had to be transporting narcotics because why else would you drive a van like that?

The problem is that it seems that "the group" doesn't want to hold the bad individuals accountable when shit goes south for the wrong reasons. Like in the case I linked above, what is the fucking question here? In the video from the incident the victim even asks "Why did you shoot me?" and the cop responds "I don't know". At the very least fire that motherfucker and throw him in jail for a bit for negligent firearm discharge or something, damn.

Some departments are light years better than others. But it is definitely a seemingly systemic issue that is somewhat rooted in the fact that the United States is fucking gigantic. In my experience, cops in the city are ten times more chill than out in BFE.

Of course in the age of internet (non)discourse, you can't say "hey maybe that individual should be held accountable" without a response of "why do you hate all cops?!" My brother-in-law who is an officer in my home city and who I respect greatly and believe he is probably a shining example of a good police officer thinks I hate cops because I think individuals like the one above should be held accountable for their actions.

Again, just tribalism like every other issue these days.
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post #46 of 142 Old November 28th, 2018, 11:28 PM
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Exactly. It's not that all cops are awful. The majority of individual police officers I'm sure do their job and do it well and with regard for public safety. Even if I go with my own anecdotal experience, I've only encountered one asshole LEO and it was a young middle-of-fucking-nowhere state trooper that seemed to want to make a name for himself by being 100% convinced that two well groomed late-20s white dudes in a hippy van just had to be transporting narcotics because why else would you drive a van like that?

The problem is that it seems that "the group" doesn't want to hold the bad individuals accountable when shit goes south for the wrong reasons. Like in the case I linked above, what is the fucking question here? In the video from the incident the victim even asks "Why did you shoot me?" and the cop responds "I don't know". At the very least fire that motherfucker and throw him in jail for a bit for negligent firearm discharge or something, damn.

Some departments are light years better than others. But it is definitely a seemingly systemic issue that is somewhat rooted in the fact that the United States is fucking gigantic. In my experience, cops in the city are ten times more chill than out in BFE.

Of course in the age of internet (non)discourse, you can't say "hey maybe that individual should be held accountable" without a response of "why do you hate all cops?!" My brother-in-law who is an officer in my home city and who I respect greatly and believe he is probably a shining example of a good police officer thinks I hate cops because I think individuals like the one above should be held accountable for their actions.

Again, just tribalism like every other issue these days.
Agreed. I don't want "all" police to be held accountable for the bad apples, but I do very much want the bad apples held accountable for their INDIVIDUAL actions, and be reprimanded/removed from duty/fired when they make huge mistakes like shooting innocent people. Accountability is critical to our way of life, and as we go on, we discover there is very, very little accountability as things get bigger.

And it's truly sad that people can't see you want individuals to be accountable, and by doing so that will make the entire group a better thing. Sixpoint kept trying to say that my wanting everyone armed as much as possible and being responsible and reasonable with firearms were mutually exclusive goals. They are not. Same with Police. Hold the bad ones accountable for their actions so that it is much easier to see that we weed them out, and don't allow them to ruin the rest of the officer's good service.

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woodman: achieving the impossible since 1967. 1973? 1980? 1985? 1976? whatever, you get my point
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post #47 of 142 Old November 29th, 2018, 08:54 AM
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post #48 of 142 Old November 29th, 2018, 06:46 PM
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No amount of training will over ride your natural instincts. I will always be more alert and ready to draw on someone dressed like a gang banger. It’s just human nature as they are known for violence and illegal activity. My training has taught me to watch people’s hands as they are what will kill you.
Since training doesn't always displace natural instinct, would it be true if I said that even with the extensive training that LEO's are required to do to be able to respond in the way that Department policy dictates, their natural instincts are always a factor in the results of the incident and how their behavior was a factor in it?

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I’ve given 2 drunk cops a ride home. I’ve given many more citizens a ride or allowed them to call a friend vs working a DWI and towing their vehicle. The only reason was they were honest and didn’t BS me when I asked them how much they had to drink. When the suspect is stumbling and says they only had 2 beers, they get to stay in the county B&B. The last guy strait up told me he drank a 12 pack. He got to call his gf for a ride home and only got a warning for failure to maintain a single lane of traffic. If there is no property damage or injury then we have discretion.

This is the best example of how quick a routine stop and turn to a deadly force situation. These officers could have easily killed this perp.

https://youtu.be/YhHQRWmR8vo
So your criteria in regards to effecting someone's freedom is if they are honest with you or not? What would be your consensus if that same guy that was "straight up" with you got convicted for killing someone while driving drunk at a later date? I'm not trying to question your discretion but it seems awfully unfair. In both instances the driver was driving under the influence. The deciding factor in regards to their freedom and the financial effect it would have in his having to defend himself was whether that person was truthful in admitting their guilt to you. That doesn't seem very fair. The crime was committed. ALL drivers found to be under the influence should be removed from the road immediately and should be charged with felony drunk driving. How many times do we read stories of people that have multiple DWI's killing people while driving drunk and we all complain why this person wasn't taken off the road. If we factor in the times this person didn't get stopped along with the chances that he may have gotten from well meaning LEO's like you it multiplies the times he was exposed to killing someone while driving drunk. I know it sounds harsh but, like you, I've seen the results of a drunk driver killing someone else and the devastation it brings to both peoples families.

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post #50 of 142 Old December 4th, 2018, 08:17 AM
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post #51 of 142 Old December 4th, 2018, 12:48 PM
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post #52 of 142 Old December 5th, 2018, 08:58 PM
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I'm still not ready to automatically label it racism, as we only have minimal information.

I am willing to say that officer should not have been sent to respond to the situation. Obviously very poorly trained.

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post #53 of 142 Old December 6th, 2018, 12:50 AM
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So let me ask this. Had this guy not have had a gun, would he still have been shot because he was black? I mean, he was black, so had he been unarmed, he’d still have been shot, right? It had nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with him being black....
As we have all said. His race wasn't the ONLY factor but it certainly played a part in how this ended so your veiled question has nothing to do with simply race. Like all things racial, it's very complex and context plays a large role yet people like you like to try and boil it down into a yes/no answer when the answer is much more complicated. This is how we get the fucked up perceptions that we seem to have in this country. Everyone wants a simple black and white answer when a lot of the time it just isn't that easy.

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---------- Post added at 05:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

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Question.

Was the original suspect black, or white? Were the police responding to reports of a black man shooting up the mall, or what?

Not saying that the shooting was justified, nor that it was racially motivated, or that black men are more likely to be shot, but if the police are told that a black man is shooting up the mall, and they come across a black man holding a gun, they're going to be somewhat inclined to start shooting. Not justifying it, but saying it's one reason that the police made a bad call.
OK....let's flip the script for a second. If the police were called in with reports that there is a white man holding a gun do you think they're going to be just as apprehensive as if a black man was holding one?

John
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post #54 of 142 Old December 6th, 2018, 06:13 AM
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As we have all said. His race wasn't the ONLY factor but it certainly played a part in how this ended so your veiled question has nothing to do with simply race. Like all things racial, it's very complex and context plays a large role yet people like you like to try and boil it down into a yes/no answer when the answer is much more complicated. This is how we get the fucked up perceptions that we seem to have in this country. Everyone wants a simple black and white answer when a lot of the time it just isn't that easy.
What’s fucked up is all the assumptions you have to come to in order to just declare this as fact. The assumption, by so many, that his race absolutely played a fact in him getting shot is absurd. Again, can you tell me more about the situation? Do you know anything that was happening when the innocent man was shot? Do you know what the original report was to the police? Do you know how many people the officer that shot the innocent man saw, who were holding guns before he shot?


It’s people like you who make your assumptions, regardless of your complete ignorance of anything that actually happened, as fact that are the problem. You don’t just get to say that race is factor, just because a white person shoots a black person. What you never seem to ever see, is the hypocrisy in your posts. You are turning it into a race issue, while knowing nothing other than a white man shot a black man, and accusing me of wanting the simple answer. How convienent of you to go back to the first question I posed, and ignore the questions where I was actually making my point. I am not saying race wasn’t a factor because I don’t know. You on the other hand are saying it as fact, when just like me, you don’t know. The problem is people like you who can’t say the words “I don’t know,” so you just feel that your assumptions are truth. That’s the problem.

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I'll toss that dude's salad

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post #55 of 142 Old December 6th, 2018, 08:13 AM
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Most police only shoot their gun once a year to qualify. I always hate people who give me grief for being a CCW holder. They'll say something like you're not a Law Enforcement Officer. My response is yes I'm not but I have had more training then most of them. I've taken several tactical classes from the head of my local SWAT team and for me and my family weekly Church is at the gun range not in some building. Most cops come right out of High School and don't know what it means to chamber a round. Most police are scared of law abiding citizens who carry.
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Most police only shoot their gun once a year to qualify. I always hate people who give me grief for being a CCW holder. They'll say something like you're not a Law Enforcement Officer. My response is yes I'm not but I have had more training then most of them. I've taken several tactical classes from the head of my local SWAT team and for me and my family weekly Church is at the gun range not in some building. Most cops come right out of High School and don't know what it means to chamber a round. Most police are scared of law abiding citizens who carry.
I had my CHL long before I was a LEO. You may have more training then some officers but not most. We train once a month with 3-4 different guns. Sidearm, patrol rifle and shotgun, and off-duty concealed carry. Unless you live in state that’s let’s 18yr olds become cops then the statement that they are strait out of high school isn’t true. Texas you have to be a minimum of 21 to get your Peace Officer license. I also don’t know if any fellow officers scared of citizens with a CHL. We know they are the good guys.
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post #57 of 142 Old December 6th, 2018, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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We know they are the good guys.
Weeeeell not all the time apparently
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post #58 of 142 Old December 6th, 2018, 01:13 PM
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OK....let's flip the script for a second. If the police were called in with reports that there is a white man holding a gun do you think they're going to be just as apprehensive as if a black man was holding one?

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Yes.

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post #59 of 142 Old December 8th, 2018, 12:52 PM
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Yeah from various stories on it they are holding off on releasing the video until te family views it but it sounds like those shots were from behind him. May not be directly comparable but it makes me think of I think his name was Walter Scott the guy was actually running away and the officer opened fire on him. I guess in this situation it was a “good guy with a gun situation” so obviously there is more levels to it.

I know some get into that bystander type syndrome and not do a thing when they see any type of unrest happening even directly in front of them but man when you know or think there is a possibility you will be taken out for trying to just to do the right thing as a bystander/citizen or even security guard it may cause a bit of pause out there for those who do have the balls to intervene and not just watch in crazy situations. Socially its never surprising to see how some see and talk about various situations but it will be interesting to see this play out.




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T-Lee. 30 is offline  
post #60 of 142 Old December 8th, 2018, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Lee. 30 View Post
Yeah from various stories on it they are holding off on releasing the video until te family views it but it sounds like those shots were from behind him. May not be directly comparable but it makes me think of I think his name was Walter Scott the guy was actually running away and the officer opened fire on him. I guess in this situation it was a “good guy with a gun situation” so obviously there is more levels to it.

I know some get into that bystander type syndrome and not do a thing when they see any type of unrest happening even directly in front of them but man when you know or think there is a possibility you will be taken out for trying to just to do the right thing as a bystander/citizen or even security guard it may cause a bit of pause out there for those who do have the balls to intervene and not just watch in crazy situations. Socially its never surprising to see how some see and talk about various situations but it will be interesting to see this play out.




https://www.wsfa.com/2018/12/03/brad...as-shot-times/
I hate seeing "he was shot x times" as though that shows some kind of bias, agression, etc. In a defensive situation, you are trained to shoot until the threat stops. That doesn't mean shoot once, wait for a reaction, then make a choice. You shoot till the bad guy (or in this case, good guy) drops.

Add into it in a panic situation, most people lose count of how many times they fire. Add to it marksmanship in a panic situation is sketchy most of the time, it's a recipe for disaster no matter what.

It's very unfortunate that the good guy got shot this time around. I blame the officer for being jumpy, not so much racism. But, my tune may change once I see the video.

Remember the shooting in Minneapolis a few years ago where what's his name, Castille, was shot repeatedly at a traffic stop? Before the video was released, everyone was claiming racism, mostly because of the very well thought out video that his girlfriend shot as he lay dying next to her. She knew exactly the impact that would have. The reality is, the officer that was telling him repeatedly to stop reaching for whatever he was reaching for (after telling the officer he was armed mind you), and him not complying is what got him shot. First off, in MN you are not obligated to inform an officer you are carrying unless they directly ask you. Second, if you do notify the officer in the interest of your safety, YOU FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. Don't make the officer nervous. Don't reach where the officer cannot see what's in your hand. Officer says stop moving, you stop moving. Then, you don't get shot.

I'm doubtful the situation we're discussing in this thread is the same, but I'm not quick to blame racism either. Just because a jumpy cop overreacts and shoots a black man, doesn't mean he's racist. Just means he grossly overreacted and had shitty training.

If, however, it turns out he just targeted the nearest black man with a gun, then yup, that's racism.

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woodman: achieving the impossible since 1967. 1973? 1980? 1985? 1976? whatever, you get my point
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ford's advertising slogan was literally "you can pay for all of it today or you can go fuck yourself"
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