Modded Mustang Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

before posting replies.. read the whole thing. I have been having the urge to buy a mustang with a blown motor and swap a 5.4 2v into it as a complete budget project, as in buy the project car and completely finish the swap for say less than 3,000.... just to see if I can do it and see what kind of power it will make. I am talking junk yard 5.4 PI 2v, used performance NA cams and valve springs. and piece together the rest with whatever i have laying around.

the only hurdle I see to this whole thing is the intake manifold issue, it is single handedly keeping me from committing. I found the mustang, I have found several local pi 5.4's, I have 4.6 log manifolds I can use. as well as a full exhaust, can modify stock H pipe.

options known:
1. intake adapters. which I want to avoid at all costs since they inhibit the spray of fuel causing performance and mileage to go down. (I have read what could be rumors that using ev6 style injectors atomized the fuel spray pattern better than ev1 which helps this problem... but I personally rolled my eyes at that... a better fuel misting against an adapter plate hindrance will still cause issues regardless)

2. HPS hardball'r intake. (where the he'll do I find these?! the guy dropped off the grid.. website down.... still has a FB page claiming he only uses that sinve last year but is MIA) plus finding a used one for sale is harder than finding a gold plated P-51 intake.

3. cut an edelbrock intake in half and widen it.. (I refer to as the rookie internet jockey response. ) I say that because cutting that thing perfectly in half alone is a pain in the d***, then I need to perfectly machine apiece to fit the gap, and then have it welded perfectly together. have the inside relatively smooth, AND not have any leaks.


so... anyone have any suggestions that are plausible other than saying Kenny bell 2.8 or lightning swap. or buy a tig welder and make a sheet metal intake.

hopeful that someone will have any good news other than, congrats Ryan... your idea is f***ed
 

·
US Air Force (retired)
Joined
·
13,542 Posts
I think the only viable option is adapter plates. I haven't heard about them inhibiting the spray of fuel. I realize that it places the injector farther away from the valve but how does that inhibit spray, or altering the A/F mix? The longer distance might somehow change the timing of the spray but I don't think you are adding that much on each side. Is the assumption that the fuel is somehow building up on the adapter plate? I can't see that as happening.

I wouldn't go EV6 if you are talking about the Cobra injectors. They are designed for two intake intake valves instead of one and have a sideway spray pattern. If the fuel from a single spray injector is coating the adapter plate then the spray from a Cobra injector would be twice as bad. Instead of mixing in with the air they would be spraying the sides of the intake. I think this video by a Chevy guy says a lot. Look at how far the spray pattern widens as the distance from the injector is increased.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I think the only viable option is adapter plates. I haven't heard about them inhibiting the spray of fuel. I realize that it places the injector farther away from the valve but how does that inhibit spray, or altering the A/F mix? The longer distance might somehow change the timing of the spray but I don't think you are adding that much on each side. Is the assumption that the fuel is somehow building up on the adapter plate? I can't see that as happening.

I wouldn't go EV6 if you are talking about the Cobra injectors. They are designed for two intake intake valves instead of one and have a sideway spray pattern. If the fuel from a single spray injector is coating the adapter plate then the spray from a Cobra injector would be twice as bad. Instead of mixing in with the air they would be spraying the sides of the intake. I think this video by a Chevy guy says a lot. Look at how far the spray pattern widens as the distance from the injector is increased.
why you should not use ford 39 in a chevy - YouTube
eagle, thank you for your reply, I sounded like an ass writing the question topuc but I wanted to hear from other knowledgeable and experienced gentlemen such as yourself and the other heavy hitters.

from what I can tell about the injector spray issue is that with the adapters it sprays straight down into theintake only the combustion chambers are now a half inchnto an inch to the side of the desired location. which causes fuel pooling in the intake. especially with an older lower tolerance ev1 injector(which would have more of a stream orcondensed spray pattern"stream" which in comparison to a newer higher tolerance ev6 injector (which has a greater ability for atomization of fuel).

I am familiar with this sort of thing on old vs. new in the g.m. world. the company Iwork for worked on a project and sold G.M./Delphi orgabization a number of centerless grinders for grinding the current generation of fuel injector pintles/seats/guide rings. for all current generation g.m. Peugeot, etc. fuel injectors. every year billions of dollars are spent continuously trying to improve fuel mileage, even by a single mpg. a single mpg improvement means huge returns on the initial investment, plus it is a continually growing epa requirement. the goes ev1 to ev6 change was huge. that aspect of fuel mileage and performance I can understand from an engineering analytical and machinist standpoint. but in my mind. spraying against a 45* or whatever angle before getting into the combustion chamber is still an obstacle.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eagle2000GT

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,557 Posts
The problem is that this was never a common swap so not much was done to make it easier so every swap is sort of cobbled together in a manner of speaking. Adapter plates and widning an eddy intake are really 2 of the most viable options without cutting the hood.

Something just popped in my head, what if you used a lightning lower intake and make some sort of plate to mount a 4.6 plenum on it? It would require some work and wouldnt be optimal but I bet you could make it work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,096 Posts
Never Enough Performance quoted me 200-300 to do the Eddy Intake...that did not include a widen adapter plate for the plenum. That is what I plan to do with my 5.4L ( have a 5.4L block from a truck I plan putting forged H beams, a good piston, 2V heads with a good blower cam). I actually did find a hardballer on facebook and made an offer but the guy never responded (I guess I was too low).

If I do not go with the Eddy Intake, which I 95% will...I'll do the adapter plates with a stock PI intake.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
thanks for the ideas info, and replies guys. perhaps I should see what eddies are going for these days and consider giving that place a call..

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 AM ----------

hmmm... wonder if it's possible to modify the adaptor plates to have provisions for the Injectors.. and then just fill/plug the intake injector provisions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
982 Posts
The problem is that this was never a common swap so not much was done to make it easier so every swap is sort of cobbled together in a manner of speaking. Adapter plates and widning an eddy intake are really 2 of the most viable options without cutting the hood.

Something just popped in my head, what if you used a lightning lower intake and make some sort of plate to mount a 4.6 plenum on it? It would require some work and wouldnt be optimal but I bet you could make it work.
The Lightning intake with a plate has been tried and did not work out well the intake will have zero runner length and that is not ideal for a motor that cant rev well. MMR made an adaptation of this intake option
https://www.theturboforums.com/images/imported/2008/03/Lighning20intake-1.jpg
Snorky,

The Hardballer is no longer made and was not that great from what I have read. The modified eddy will work but that is a hole bunch of fabrication to get it working including a custom fabricated plenum. The eddy has very short runner length as well and these motors just cant make power in higher RPM with 2v heads.

I was in the same exact boat as you at one point, researched the living hell out of this build and wanted to slap my vortech on one. Instead I will be bumping my 4.6 compression to 10-11:1 and getting rid of some dynamically with the cam. I think the 5.4 would be really cool but just doesn't add up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,096 Posts
Is the PI with adapter plates that bad? For me is all the same I have both a 4.6 and a 5.4 block and i need to buy rods/pistons regardless...i figured why not get the extra displacement...the plan would be either port my current heads or eventually go to Trickflows but that would a long time down the road. 500-550 is my goal and to have a 5.4 would be semi-unique.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
982 Posts
Is the PI with adapter plates that bad? For me is all the same I have both a 4.6 and a 5.4 block and i need to buy rods/pistons regardless...i figured why not get the extra displacement...the plan would be either port my current heads or eventually go to Trickflows but that would a long time down the road. 500-550 is my goal and to have a 5.4 would be semi-unique.
I'm sure the total potential with the 5.4 is higher, but that is not your goal. With a goal of 600whp the 4.6 2v is perfectly fine. With a turbo 700 whp is just fine. After that the 2v starts to demand some pretty serious effort.

Your adding weight for no reason with the 5.4 and Long tubes are not available for them. Your supercharger bracket will not fit the 5.4 either. The 5.4 will not rev out like the 4.6 thus creating issues getting the extra volume you need out of you vortech.

Turbo 5.4 2v with trick flow heads and sulivan intake would be cool but that's just way out of my budget with all my little clones running around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,096 Posts
I get that for sure. I'm just wondering if the PI intake is indeed so bad with the adapters. I'm not so concerned with weight. This isn't a race car....fun street car that will see track time but definitely not the main goal.

I do have a 4.6 and 5.4 block and I'm not 100% decided on the 5.4 but it would be unique to have and with Trickflow heads eventually it would be a pretty good setup.

I will be keeping my D1SC and running that...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
982 Posts
I get that for sure. I'm just wondering if the PI intake is indeed so bad with the adapters. I'm not so concerned with weight. This isn't a race car....fun street car that will see track time but definitely not the main goal.

I do have a 4.6 and 5.4 block and I'm not 100% decided on the 5.4 but it would be unique to have and with Trickflow heads eventually it would be a pretty good setup.

I will be keeping my D1SC and running that...
you will have to modify the supercharger bracket. The adapter plates are not al bad I don't think but they do mess with the atomization of fuel as the injectors spray pattern runs right into them instead of directly into the combustion chamber. I'm sure they still work
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,442 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
from wharbis have read about the adapters and stock pi intake. it is a damn fun car for the street, and the low end tq production is an extra 50 lbs at the tires. but at the track it makes no difference. I am sure an intake and a mild set of cams vs. the 4.6 equivalent may change the tide though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GBPackerFan

·
Registered
Joined
·
982 Posts
from wharbis have read about the adapters and stock pi intake. it is a damn fun car for the street, and the low end tq production is an extra 50 lbs at the tires. but at the track it makes no difference. I am sure an intake and a mild set of cams vs. the 4.6 equivalent may change the tide though.
I'm not so sure the 5.4 would out perform the 4.6 in N/A trim.

Heads, cam, Intake, exhaust both make around the same power from what I have found

Without adding compression both can make around 350-360whp and 360-370wtq. The 5.4 might reach a bit better torque and have more area under the curve but at the cost of RPM.

If your going to turbo the car then the 5.4 might be even better but for an RMP driven blower car that limitation is a hefty negative.

I would rather shed 75lbs off the front of the car with the teksid 4.6 then add 30-40lbs to the nose with a 5.4. Saving 100+ pounds can make a difference between .2 or more seconds in the 1/4. That may not seem huge but when you look at the ability to transfer weight to the rear tires it becomes more substantial on the street and at the track.

This is just my opinion from what I gathered on the swap. I still think it would be cool but I really just want to hang with the new stock coyotes, ss Camaros and scat pack cars as long as I can. With the autos getting as crazy as the are that is starting to feel like a real struggle for a manual 2v 4.6 with a centri blower.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,096 Posts
I'm not so sure the 5.4 would out perform the 4.6 in N/A trim.

Heads, cam, Intake, exhaust both make around the same power from what I have found

Without adding compression both can make around 350-360whp and 360-370wtq. The 5.4 might reach a bit better torque and have more area under the curve but at the cost of RPM.

If your going to turbo the car then the 5.4 might be even better but for an RMP driven blower car that limitation is a hefty negative.

I would rather shed 75lbs off the front of the car with the teksid 4.6 then add 30-40lbs to the nose with a 5.4. Saving 100+ pounds can make a difference between .2 or more seconds in the 1/4. That may not seem huge but when you look at the ability to transfer weight to the rear tires it becomes more substantial on the street and at the track.

This is just my opinion from what I gathered on the swap. I still think it would be cool but I really just want to hang with the new stock coyotes, ss Camaros and scat pack cars as long as I can. With the autos getting as crazy as the are that is starting to feel like a real struggle for a manual 2v 4.6 with a centri blower.
Definitely good logical points. Is it mainly the stock PI heads and intake that limits a 5.4 revving? It just runs out of breath? I'm guessing ported heads or TFS would help with that...and obviously a good cam.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
982 Posts
Definitely good logical points. Is it mainly the stock PI heads and intake that limits a 5.4 revving? It just runs out of breath? I'm guessing ported heads or TFS would help with that...and obviously a good cam.
Its a combination of issues for an N/A car but FI takes out a few of those factors.

The heads on our cars are really the issue. The valves angles create issues with shrouding and the intake and exhaust ports just are not quite big enough. The DOHC 5.4 can make power to 6500 but they need an aftermarket intake to do so (like the sulivan).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,557 Posts
Definitely good logical points. Is it mainly the stock PI heads and intake that limits a 5.4 revving? It just runs out of breath? I'm guessing ported heads or TFS would help with that...and obviously a good cam.
Its a combination of issues for an N/A car but FI takes out a few of those factors.

The heads on our cars are really the issue. The valves angles create issues with shrouding and the intake and exhaust ports just are not quite big enough. The DOHC 5.4 can make power to 6500 but they need an aftermarket intake to do so (like the sulivan).
Good point about the intake but since a coyote intake can almost bolt on its becoming moot. Strap a boss 302 intake on it with the right combo and have at it. Itll make plenty of power over 7k as long as the cams and bottom end can handle it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
982 Posts
Good point about the intake but since a coyote intake can almost bolt on its becoming moot. Strap a boss 302 intake on it with the right combo and have at it. Itll make plenty of power over 7k as long as the cams and bottom end can handle it.
The coyote intake will bolt to the DOHC 5.4 but will not bolt to the SOHC 5.4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,557 Posts
Good point about the intake but since a coyote intake can almost bolt on its becoming moot. Strap a boss 302 intake on it with the right combo and have at it. Itll make plenty of power over 7k as long as the cams and bottom end can handle it.
The coyote intake will bolt to the DOHC 5.4 but will not bolt to the SOHC 5.4
Thats what I was referring to because you brought it up.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top