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Today my wife and I are installing a set of Eibach Pro springs and BMR Panhard bar. I have a set of camber bolts that I was wondering would probably be necessary to install. AM says it takes two hours and how do I tell for sure if the alignment needs them? Thanks
 

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gtscrewd
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when we did my pro kit we used the camber bolts as well use them and take it to a good alignment shop and you will be fine
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Also if anyone knows where I can find a write-up to install the BMR Upper Panhard bar support brace
 

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gtscrewd
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just google the question you posted above under a 2008 mustang gt it will put up a good write up i cant copy onto here for some reason
 

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I just installed a set of camber bolts myself. I also have CC plates, but the camber was maxed out so I needed the bolts as well. Get them and save yourself some trouble.
 

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Another school of thought is to leave the negative camber on there. After my ProKit springs I had 1 7/8* and 2 1/8* of camber and never installed my camber bolts. Seemed like this bit of camber made my car feel more planted in turns, especially on initial turn-in. Just seemed a little quicker response to steering wheel input. Just a thought, I like the camber and it's you can't really tell there is any on there. I do swap my tires from side to side to even out the wear so I can get better mileage out of my tires, but other than that, I can't see any drawbacks to running them this way.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
We were doing the work on post and it closed right as I got the BMR Panhard bar installed. Didn't even get a chance to measure it but it looks only slightly off. Gonna try to get it to an alignment shop tomorrow.
 

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Another school of thought is to leave the negative camber on there. After my ProKit springs I had 1 7/8* and 2 1/8* of camber and never installed my camber bolts. Seemed like this bit of camber made my car feel more planted in turns, especially on initial turn-in. Just seemed a little quicker response to steering wheel input. Just a thought, I like the camber and it's you can't really tell there is any on there. I do swap my tires from side to side to even out the wear so I can get better mileage out of my tires, but other than that, I can't see any drawbacks to running them this way.
The negative camber will make the car handle better, the only downside will be tire wear as far as I know.
 

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At the Apex pulling 1.28g
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Another school of thought is to leave the negative camber on there. After my ProKit springs I had 1 7/8* and 2 1/8* of camber and never installed my camber bolts. Seemed like this bit of camber made my car feel more planted in turns, especially on initial turn-in. Just seemed a little quicker response to steering wheel input. Just a thought, I like the camber and it's you can't really tell there is any on there. I do swap my tires from side to side to even out the wear so I can get better mileage out of my tires, but other than that, I can't see any drawbacks to running them this way.
Not to get overly technical, but that is because negative camber DOES make your car grip harder in turns. A modern tire requires some negative camber to operate correctly.. Basically the negative camber creates a thrust and plants the outside tire a little better. With some negative camber at full body roll the angle of that thrust force helps the car grip in a corner.

Turn in is almost entirely a toe function although camber will have an impact on that too... Lots of negative camber usually decreases turn in response because at large angles (like above -3.0º) you reduce your contact patch when going in a straight line. When you start to turn the wheel there is less contact patch so you get less force causing the car to change directions. That is assuming that toe stays the same when changing camber which it doesn't necessarily do that. If you really want to make your car twitchy to the point of nearly undriveable, put some serious Toe OUT on the front of the car and take special care of your tires! :p Lots of dedicated autocrossers running tons of toe out when autocrossing to get their cars to turn better.

If corner carving is your thing (and I'm not speaking directly to you Boss, but to everyone) then you will want some negative camber and you will also want to invest in a square tire set up. The same size at all 4 corners is almost critical to maximizing the life of your tires and is one of the many reasons I stress it for folks interested in autocross/roadcourse/aggressive canyon carving. A square set up doesn't induce any over/understeer either which is an added bonus. Larger contact patch in the rear creates more grip in the rear which is adding understeer. Almost all staggered set ups induce some handling bias. Larger contact patch in the front will decrease understeer or move the car towards oversteer.

The negative camber will make the car handle better, the only downside will be tire wear as far as I know.
Indeed. Negative camber is essential to handling. These cars can get away with some stupid silly camber settings for daily driving without adverse wear so long as you can rotate your tires. I daily drove on -1.7º of camber and after some 60+ autocross runs this season the outsides of my tires are still taking a beating indicating a need for more negative camber.

Camber is not nearly as bad of a tire killer as improperly set toe is. I was at Neutral toe for all of last season and that is probably part of the reason that the tires didn't self destruct the inner shoulders.

As for camber bolts, I wouldn't put them on for a multitude of reasons. Go find out what your alignment settings are after you drop the car and drive it for a little bit. You may find that your camber is not far enough negative to be out of spec. Ford specs -1.5º as the MAX negative camber. Without camber bolts and the Steeda HD Plates basically slammed to the inside for max negative camber, on Steeda Sports I was sitting at -1.7º of camber. One side maxed out at -2.0º but I had them make it equal on both sides. You may not get to -1.5º with just a drop.
 

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Castor can also be a factor, more castor typically helps in straight line stability, where less can help in turn quicker. With camber you don't wanna run TOO much negative because, as they said it can wear your tires down quicker, trust me, I went threw a set of nittos in a year cause of this, even rotated side to side. But it also can hurt your stability, cause think about it, your contact patch can be less. Ideally, you want every adjustment the same on both sides.

For a daily driver, I would put them on and make sure everything is in spec.

Sent from my EVO using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 

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Not to get overly technical, but that is because negative camber DOES make your car grip harder in turns. A modern tire requires some negative camber to operate correctly.. Basically the negative camber creates a thrust and plants the outside tire a little better. With some negative camber at full body roll the angle of that thrust force helps the car grip in a corner.

Turn in is almost entirely a toe function although camber will have an impact on that too... Lots of negative camber usually decreases turn in response because at large angles (like above -3.0º) you reduce your contact patch when going in a straight line. When you start to turn the wheel there is less contact patch so you get less force causing the car to change directions. That is assuming that toe stays the same when changing camber which it doesn't necessarily do that. If you really want to make your car twitchy to the point of nearly undriveable, put some serious Toe OUT on the front of the car and take special care of your tires! :p Lots of dedicated autocrossers running tons of toe out when autocrossing to get their cars to turn better.

If corner carving is your thing (and I'm not speaking directly to you Boss, but to everyone) then you will want some negative camber and you will also want to invest in a square tire set up. The same size at all 4 corners is almost critical to maximizing the life of your tires and is one of the many reasons I stress it for folks interested in autocross/roadcourse/aggressive canyon carving. A square set up doesn't induce any over/understeer either which is an added bonus. Larger contact patch in the rear creates more grip in the rear which is adding understeer. Almost all staggered set ups induce some handling bias. Larger contact patch in the front will decrease understeer or move the car towards oversteer.



Indeed. Negative camber is essential to handling. These cars can get away with some stupid silly camber settings for daily driving without adverse wear so long as you can rotate your tires. I daily drove on -1.7º of camber and after some 60+ autocross runs this season the outsides of my tires are still taking a beating indicating a need for more negative camber.

Camber is not nearly as bad of a tire killer as improperly set toe is. I was at Neutral toe for all of last season and that is probably part of the reason that the tires didn't self destruct the inner shoulders.

As for camber bolts, I wouldn't put them on for a multitude of reasons. Go find out what your alignment settings are after you drop the car and drive it for a little bit. You may find that your camber is not far enough negative to be out of spec. Ford specs -1.5º as the MAX negative camber. Without camber bolts and the Steeda HD Plates basically slammed to the inside for max negative camber, on Steeda Sports I was sitting at -1.7º of camber. One side maxed out at -2.0º but I had them make it equal on both sides. You may not get to -1.5º with just a drop.

Yeah, what he said. Without getting too into it, I was just trying to say try it with the camber the springs give will give you. You might like it.
 

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Castor can also be a factor, more castor typically helps in straight line stability, where less can help in turn quicker. With camber you don't wanna run TOO much negative because, as they said it can wear your tires down quicker, trust me, I went threw a set of nittos in a year cause of this, even rotated side to side. But it also can hurt your stability, cause think about it, your contact patch can be less. Ideally, you want every adjustment the same on both sides.

For a daily driver, I would put them on and make sure everything is in spec.

Sent from my EVO using AutoGuide.Com Free App
Caster has a very important effect for corner carving and that is it's translation to camber when the wheel is turned. Positive Caster causes the outside wheel to gain negative camber when the wheel is turned and the inside wheel to gain positive camber. This keeps the tires flatter to the pavement in cornering. I would say that there isn't anyway to have too much caster on these cars. Around +7.5º is a good point to be at. It wont cover your ass if you hit a corner too hard but it will help some! :) And the best part is, it's basically tire wear free! It has no real effect on tire wear so run as much as you can.

Camber wear depends entirely on how you drive. If you drive like your grandma, then you may want to run around -1º but if you enjoy driving your car at all, then -1º to -1.5º are recommended for a purely street driven vehicle. If you compete on your vehicle you will need to find a solution to the camber problem which I'm sure will involve a set of camber plates, and some time spent on an alignment rack finding a toe setting that gives you the right amount of toe and negative camber for daily driving (as little as possible) and the correct amount of toe and negative camber for performance driving (as much as possible until you start to lose grip in a corner and braking performance). Like I said, I ran at -1.7º of camber and with the autocross events I attend still saw significant OUTSIDE shoulder wear and ZERO inside shoulder wear. In fact when I had the tire shop flip the tires on the rims the inside shoulders still have their nubbies where some of the pressure should be sitting.
 
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